Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

[bluto]

Not according to the Scriptures. Review Ps.45:6-7 and Heb.1:8-9.


Quasar92

Yes quasar, mailman is right the Father and the Son are one in nature according to John 10:30. The verse literally reads, "I and the Father we are one." The Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant and if they didn't know you can't know. Secondly, why did the Jews take up stones to want to kill Him? The answer is at vs33, "The Jews answsered Him, For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man make Yourself out God."

Now, you want to know what is really ironic? The writer of Hebrews at Hebrews 1:3 states, "And He/Jesus Christ is the radiance of His/God the Father glory and the exact representation of His/God the Father nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power, When He had made purfication of sins. He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"

Then reading on from vs4 the Father the angels are suppose to worship Jesus Christ and the Father calls Jesus Christ God at vs8. So here are the two questions? Why did the Jews accuse Jesus of blasphemy and at Hebrews 1 how many persons are in view?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[mailmandan]

and thus when you follow these doctrine it means when Jesus makes statements such as "Father is greater than the Son", we can go back and say, what Jesus "really" meant was the Father is equal to the Son and not greater.

Speaking from His humanity, Jesus can say, " the Father is greater than I," yet speaking from His divinity, Jesus can say, "I and the Father are one." Jesus was fully man and fully God.

 

[UnderGrace]

Speaking from His humanity, Jesus can say, " the Father is greater than I," yet speaking from His divinity, Jesus can say, "I and the Father are one." Jesus was fully man and fully God.

Important distinction.

 

[RBA238]

Well I'm glad you don't seperate them

I really have no issue with you here.

As long as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all fully God.. co-equal and co-eternal...in your teaching.. then what I am saying with the 3 being expressions or substances rather than persons.. doesn't really matter.

There is just this picture that is presented sometimes in cartoons and illustrations.. of someone in heaven.. with The Father and Son as seperate beings. That to me.. looks like Polytheism. Surely when we get to heaven we would meet the one being God.

Some people see God as "Daddy" and Jesus as "Junior" That however is not factual..

 

[wattie]

and thus when you follow these doctrine it means when Jesus makes statements such as "Father is greater than the Son", we can go back and say, what Jesus "really" meant was the Father is equal to the Son and not greater.

When Jesus said the Father is greater than I..

He was actually in the following time.. going to ascend to heaven to be one with the Father.

Jesus isn't saying the Father is an 'ontologically superior being'

He is saying.. 'The Father in a greater POSITION or PLACE than I'..

Jesus .. goes TO that position or place.

Remember when He says this He is talking to the disciples who are wondering about Him.. He says to them.. I am going to ascend to be one with the Father.

 

[fredoheaven]

You missed my point..I stated that the Bible never once addresses as "God The Son" only "The Son of God". Look at the difference: "God The Son" can mean that The Son is a second Person in a Trinity by tbe descriptiom..

Missing your point? Am sorry sir, but you fail to realized what I posted on or should I say, you're even clueless to what I am saying! No Jesus is not only described as the Son of God. He is described as Prophet, Priest and King! and many more...

You said:

Correction: nowhere in The NT does it describe
Jesus as "God The Son" the Bible Always describes Jesus as "The Son of God". This is the only Jesus is described

 

[jaybird88]

Speaking from His humanity, Jesus can say, " the Father is greater than I," yet speaking from His divinity, Jesus can say, "I and the Father are one." Jesus was fully man and fully God.

When Jesus said the Father is greater than I..

He was actually in the following time.. going to ascend to heaven to be one with the Father.

Jesus isn't saying the Father is an 'ontologically superior being'

He is saying.. 'The Father in a greater POSITION or PLACE than I'..

Jesus .. goes TO that position or place.

Remember when He says this He is talking to the disciples who are wondering about Him.. He says to them.. I am going to ascend to be one with the Father.

so when Jesus made that statement it was kinda like a temporary teaching being as it was only valid in a certain time window or form He was in? so how many other of His teachings are temporary?

 

[wattie]

so when Jesus made that statement it was kinda like a temporary teaching being as it was only valid in a certain time window or form He was in? so how many other of His teachings are temporary?

Temporary? No He was and always is fully God. There was a time tho when the Father was in Heaven while Jesus was on earth. Not spirituallying separate though.

 

[jaybird88]

Temporary? No He was and always is fully God. There was a time tho when the Father was in Heaven while Jesus was on earth. Not spirituallying separate though.

not making sense.
is the Father greater than the Son yes or no?

 

[Talishi]

If Jesus and the Father were one, that would mean they had the same knowledge of the timing of the Day of the Lord. But Jesus himself in Mark 13:32 says, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." This presents the greatest scriptural difficulty to the Trinity, I believe.

 

[Quasar92]

The Father and Son are one God in essence/nature yet two distinct persons.

The Scriptures will reveal to you, God the Father and Jesus, the Son of God/God the Son, ARE NOT one God , as you claim. That come straight out of Trinitarian double talk. Review more in the following OT statements by the Father.:

God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in Isa.44:6, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." See also Isa.45:5: "I am the Lord and there is no other," and in Ex.3:14: "I AM WHO I AM."

In addition to that, God, the Holy Spirit produced the human Jesus by the virgin Mary, in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35. Making God, who is the Holy Spirit, according to Jn.4:24 and 2 Cor.3:17-18, the Father of Jesus, who became the Son of God/God the Son. Father's and son's are NEVER one person. When Jesus said He and His Father are one, He meant that spiritually, in the very same way all of us who belong to Jesus are one with them both. Review Jn.17:20-23.


Quasar92.

 

[wattie]

not making sense.
is the Father greater than the Son yes or no?

Obviously context doesn't mean a lot to you. Nevermind. End of discussion.

 

[mailmandan]

If Jesus and the Father were one, that would mean they had the same knowledge of the timing of the Day of the Lord. But Jesus himself in Mark 13:32 says, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." This presents the greatest scriptural difficulty to the Trinity, I believe.

Jesus clearly said, "I and the Father are one" in John 10:30, yet people seem determined to pit scripture against scripture.

See - If Jesus was God, why did He not know when He would return?

 

[mailmandan]

The Scriptures will reveal to you, God the Father and Jesus, the Son of God/God the Son, ARE NOT one God , as you claim. That come straight out of Trinitarian double talk. Review more in the following OT statements by the Father.:

God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in Isa.44:6, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." See also Isa.45:5: "I am the Lord and there is no other," and in Ex.3:14: "I AM WHO I AM."

In addition to that, God, the Holy Spirit produced the human Jesus by the virgin Mary, in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35. Making God, who is the Holy Spirit, according to Jn.4:24 and 2 Cor.3:17-18, the Father of Jesus, who became the Son of God/God the Son. Father's and son's are NEVER one person. When Jesus said He and His Father are one, He meant that spiritually, in the very same way all of us who belong to Jesus are one with them both. Review Jn.17:20-23.

Quasar92.

Again, Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” Look at the Jews reaction in John 10:33 - The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). JESUS IS GOD.

John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God? John repeatedly tells us of the Lord's connection to "I Am". See John: 4:26, 8:24, 8:28, 8:58, and 13:19.

The Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus "..is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And he is before all things, and by Him all things consist." (Colossians 1:15-17)

Hebrews 1:8 - But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

John 1:1 clearly says - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”. This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh.

Colossians 2:9 (NKJV) For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9 - (Amplified) For in Him all the fullness of Deity (the Godhead) dwells in bodily form [completely expressing the divine essence of God].

Matthew 1:23 - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. JESUS IS GOD.

I hope and pray that one day you come to the realization (just as Thomas finally did in John 20:28) when he said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus is my Lord and my God as well. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[LaurenTM]

Originally Posted by Talishi

If Jesus and the Father were one, that would mean they had the same knowledge of the timing of the Day of the Lord. But Jesus himself in Mark 13:32 says, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." This presents the greatest scriptural difficulty to the Trinity, I believe.


Dan:
Jesus clearly said, "I and the Father are one" in John 10:30, yet people seem determined to pit scripture against scripture.

See - If Jesus was God, why did He not know when He would return?

talishi states she is not a Christian, so that may explain why she writes as she does

 

[Quasar92]

The triunity of God is clearly taught in the Scriptures by the risen Jesus Christ.

He speaks of people being 'baptised in the (ONE) Name (YHWH) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit'. The placing of Son between Father and Spirit is conclusive. God has many titles but only one Name.

we may argue the background, we cannot argue with the facts.

The fact of the matter is,neither Jesus nor His disciples ever taight the Trinity. In addition, many highly esteemed Trinitarians admit the Bible DOES NOT teach a Trinity. It did not come into existence until the 2nd century and was not admitted into Church doctrin until the 5th century.



Quasar

 

[RBA238]

The fact of the matter is,neither Jesus nor His disciples ever taight the Trinity. In addition, many highly esteemed Trinitarians admit the Bible DOES NOT teach a Trinity. It did not come into existence until the 2nd century and was not admitted into Church doctrin until the 5th century.



Quasar

Totally agree! And the Trinity Doctrine was a man made tradition never taught by tne disciples or Jesus.

 

[Quasar92]

Again, Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” Look at the Jews reaction in John 10:33 - The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). JESUS IS GOD.

John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God? John repeatedly tells us of the Lord's connection to "I Am". See John: 4:26, 8:24, 8:28, 8:58, and 13:19.

The Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus "..is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And he is before all things, and by Him all things consist." (Colossians 1:15-17)

Hebrews 1:8 - But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

John 1:1 clearly says - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”. This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh.

Colossians 2:9 (NKJV) For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9 - (Amplified) For in Him all the fullness of Deity (the Godhead) dwells in bodily form [completely expressing the divine essence of God].

Matthew 1:23 - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. JESUS IS GOD.

I hope and pray that one day you come to the realization (just as Thomas finally did in John 20:28) when he said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus is my Lord and my God as well. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!

You really could care less as to the Scriptures refuting you. FYI, the Father and the Son are two very separate persons, as the Scriptures reveal. See Jn.8:28, Jn.14:10 and Jn.17, where Jesus relates the meaning of our being one with He and the Father.


Identifying the Biblical term Father as His title. Like all men are when they produce children:

A revelation of how easy it is for the Scriptures to identify God as being the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Bible, documented below.

1. 2 Sam.7:14: "I will be his Father and he will be my son"
2. 1 Chr.17:13: "I will be his Father and he will be my son..."
3. Ps.2:7: "He said to me, 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father."
4. Acts 13:33: "You are my Son; today I have become your Father."
The "I" in each of the four verses above is God referring to Himself. Who is the "I" ? [Later below].

The Scriptures below tell us God is an invisible Spirit:

God is Spirit: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12.
In addition to the Scriptures below declaring the above Spirit of God Holy:

God is Holy: Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Isa.43:3; Jos.24:19; 1 Sam.2:2; Job 6:10; Ps.99:3 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.
According to the above, there is no option to the Scriptural fact God is the Holy Spirit.

With the Scriptures documenting the identity of God as being the Holy Spirit, there is no possibility of anyone except the Holy Spirit of being the Father of Jesus Christ as well, according to Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and Heb.10:5.

Revealing the "I's," in the above Scriptures, who spoke of Himself as the Father of a Son to come, to be the Holy Spirit.

The origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of the person who later became Jesus Christ:
He was "brought forth," NIV - or - "born," NASB, by God [Who is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures], in Pr.8:22-36, before the world began. Who was "given birth" in verses 24-25, the "Craftsman at His side," NIV - or - "I was beside Him as a Master workman," NASB, in vs 30 and the "us" in Gen.1:26, 11:7 and Heb.1:2. The firstborn over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15.

From the Pr.8:22 KJV: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." A review of Gen.14:19 and 2 2 reveals the term POSSESSOR to be translated CREATOR, in the NIV and [annotated] CREATOR in the NASB as well as Scofield's version of the KJV. Meaning that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit becomes the Father:

When the Holy Spirit overpowered the virgin Mary [In Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35], she conceived what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God Several things happened then: 1.God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, making the Holy Spirit and the Father one 'personage' [Spirit], Lk.1:35. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13; Ps.2:7 and Acts 13:33. Repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5. 2. The incarnate Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give the Holy Spirit to whomever He chose. 3. Jesus said we must be born again through belief in Him, and He will give/baptize those who do, with eternal life, documented in: Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. See also Jn.20:21-22; 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13.

Note: There was no Son of God during OT times, as clearly seen in Isa.43:10. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus did not become the human Son of God and literally God the Son, or obtain the name Jesus until being recorded in Mt.1:20; Lk.1:31, 35 and Jn.1:14. And in Ps.45:6-7; 110:1 and Isa.7:14, repeated in Mt.1:23; 22:44 and Heb.1:8-9 when it had been fulfilled.


Quasar92

 

[jaybird88]

Obviously context doesn't mean a lot to you. Nevermind. End of discussion.

context?? context does not make a yes into a no. and you cant use context to make up whatever you want to hear or worse, bend and manipulate the scriptures to conform to a doctrine.

 

[FreeNChrist]

If Jesus and the Father were one, that would mean they had the same knowledge of the timing of the Day of the Lord. But Jesus himself in Mark 13:32 says, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." This presents the greatest scriptural difficulty to the Trinity, I believe.

Not really. Not if He had emptied Himself of His divine prerogative to function as who He is, God, in order to function as a true man. Which is exactly what scripture tells us.

"who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" Phil. 2:6-7