Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

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wattie

wattie

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#141
Feb 24, 2009
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#141
jaybird88 said:
context?? context does not make a yes into a no. and you cant use context to make up whatever you want to hear or worse, bend and manipulate the scriptures to conform to a doctrine.
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Example:

'Where two or three are gathered there I am with them' From Jesus in Matthew 18.

On the surface of this .. you could say it could be anyone gathered in any circumstance.

Then first-

You realise He is talking to believers.

Second- They are gathered as the first church. Jesus with His disciples

Third- The rest of the verses around this one are about resolving conflicts/disputes in a church family.

Fourth- The same process was used in Deuteronomy for Israel in wilderness.. but is renewed for the New Testament local church family.

So therefore-

'Where two or three are gathered there I am with them'

Is about having two or three believers in a local church setting, gathered together to resolve a dispute/sin issue.

So the context determines the meaning.

:)
 
wattie

wattie

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#142
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#142
mailmandan said:
Again, Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” Look at the Jews reaction in John 10:33 - The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). JESUS IS GOD.

John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God? John repeatedly tells us of the Lord's connection to "I Am". See John: 4:26, 8:24, 8:28, 8:58, and 13:19.

The Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus "..is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And he is before all things, and by Him all things consist." (Colossians 1:15-17)

Hebrews 1:8 - But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

John 1:1 clearly says - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”. This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh.

Colossians 2:9 (NKJV) For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9 - (Amplified) For in Him all the fullness of Deity (the Godhead) dwells in bodily form [completely expressing the divine essence of God].

Matthew 1:23 - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. JESUS IS GOD.

I hope and pray that one day you come to the realization (just as Thomas finally did in John 20:28) when he said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus is my Lord and my God as well. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ! :)
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Yes awesome scriptures.

When you realize the perspective of those who Jesus is addressing, then Jesus' divinity becomes very clear.

I remember reading about the Jewish concept of agency.. somethhing along the lines of....where a messenger will deliver a message on behalf of another.. what the messenger says is given the same weight as the originator. So effectively.. the agent becomes the originator.

So when Jesus talks to them about doing this by the 'hand of the Father'.. says He is 'one with the Father' etc..

The Jews are saying-- this guy is saying He IS God...!

So some did accept that.. becoming believers in Jesus as the Messiah.. which is saying He is God..and others clung to their self righteous works and rejected His divinity.

They stoned Him for claiming to be God!

Jesus either definitely was God, crazy or the Devil..

Crazy and the Devil.. don't match with how He is drawn out in the bible.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#143
#143
wattie said:
Example:

'Where two or three are gathered there I am with them' From Jesus in Matthew 18.

On the surface of this .. you could say it could be anyone gathered in any circumstance.

Then first-

You realise He is talking to believers.

Second- They are gathered as the first church. Jesus with His disciples

Third- The rest of the verses around this one are about resolving conflicts/disputes in a church family.

Fourth- The same process was used in Deuteronomy for Israel in wilderness.. but is renewed for the New Testament local church family.

So therefore-

'Where two or three are gathered there I am with them'

Is about having two or three believers in a local church setting, gathered together to resolve a dispute/sin issue.

So the context determines the meaning.

:)
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i agree but this has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
you trying to use context to change a statement "the Father is greater than I" into the Father is NOT greater than I but equal to I. Jesus is pretty clear to me, there is no reading in or out of the text or calling context.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#144
#144
jaybird88 said:
i agree but this has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
you trying to use context to change a statement "the Father is greater than I" into the Father is NOT greater than I but equal to I. Jesus is pretty clear to me, there is no reading in or out of the text or calling context.
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The Father is greater than any man, and Jesus in His incarnation was functioning as a man.
 
R

RBA238

Guest
#145
#145
FreeNChrist said:
Not really. Not if He had emptied Himself of His divine prerogative to function as who He is, God, in order to function as a true man. Which is exactly what scripture tells us.

"who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" Phil. 2:6-7
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Once again. Everyone just ID God, The Father as the Eternal One Spirit, who never had a beginning nor an end. Jesus, is God Manifested in The Flesh : I Timothy 3 verse 16 KJV. Same God in Both Flesh and Spirit..Not "Person #1, and Person #2.."
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#146
#146
RBA238 said:
Once again. Everyone just ID God, The Father as the Eternal One Spirit, who never had a beginning nor an end. Jesus, is God Manifested in The Flesh : I Timothy 3 verse 16 KJV. Same God in Both Flesh and Spirit..Not "Person #1, and Person #2.."
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Once again.....nope.
 
R

RBA238

Guest
#147
#147
FreeNChrist said:
Once again.....nope.
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Well you can stay in Trinity Fantasyland if you like, there is no Trinity of 3 persons, and never will be...Remember this always; think of how foolish your going to appear before God at the Great White Throne Judgement (Revelation 21 v 10) and You See God in front of you as your Judge and Jury. Then you say "God, where are The Other two, Jesus, and The Holy Ghost"?
And God tells you, many of my servents tried to explain it unto you, but your foolish pride cost you entrance into heaven. Depart from me, worker of iniquity"
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#148
Feb 24, 2009
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#148
jaybird88 said:
i agree but this has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
you trying to use context to change a statement "the Father is greater than I" into the Father is NOT greater than I but equal to I. Jesus is pretty clear to me, there is no reading in or out of the text or calling context.
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Well, the context around this passage is that Jesus is about to ascend to be one with the Father. So the context DOES determine this.

If I said to you.. the President of the United States is greater than I..

would that mean-- he is an ontologically superior being.. or in a greater position?
 
prove-all

prove-all

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May 16, 2014
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#149
wattie said:
Well, the context around this passage is that Jesus is about to ascend to be one with the Father. So the context DOES determine this.

If I said to you.. the President of the United States is greater than I..

would that mean-- he is an ontologically superior being.. or in a greater position?
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well Jesus himself says that he was to ascended to [His] God

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;

and to my God, and your God.​
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#150
#150
wattie said:
So the context DOES determine this.
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but this is not your argument. context can very much determine the meaning but it does not change statements from a yes to a no.
Jesus says the Father is greater.
you say the Father is NOT greater. because of context.
your trying to use context to contradict what Jesus says.
 
wattie

wattie

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#151
Feb 24, 2009
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#151
jaybird88 said:
but this is not your argument. context can very much determine the meaning but it does not change statements from a yes to a no.
Jesus says the Father is greater.
you say the Father is NOT greater. because of context.
your trying to use context to contradict what Jesus says.
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Neverending. .. (sigh). Jesus ascended to be with the Father. From then there is no 'lesser' god or lesser status. Other scripture supports Jrsus' deity such as 'before Abraham was I AM' so this scripture won't contradict that. Over.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#152
#152
wattie said:
Neverending. .. (sigh). Jesus ascended to be with the Father. From then there is no 'lesser' god or lesser status. Other scripture supports Jrsus' deity such as 'before Abraham was I AM' so this scripture won't contradict that. Over.
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the Father is greater.
the Father is NOT greater.
these 2 statements contradict each other. you can dance around and dodge this all you like but its not gonna change what Jesus says about the Father.
 
wattie

wattie

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#153
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#153
John_14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

He is going to the Father..

The Father is in a greater place..

Therefore the Father is greater.

Doesn't mean the Father is superior.

The president of the USA is greater than me in POSITION.

But we are both humans.. equal in that sense.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#154
#154
jaybird88 said:
the Father is greater.
the Father is NOT greater.
these 2 statements contradict each other. you can dance around and dodge this all you like but its not gonna change what Jesus says about the Father.
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Already explained to you. Who's the one dancing and dodging?
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#155
Mar 22, 2015
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#155
Originally Posted by valiant
The triunity of God is clearly taught in the Scriptures by the risen Jesus Christ.

He speaks of people being 'baptised in the (ONE) Name (YHWH) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit'. The placing of Son between Father and Spirit is conclusive. God has many titles but only one Name.

we may argue the background, we cannot argue with the facts..
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Quasar92 said:
The fact of the matter is,neither Jesus nor His disciples ever taight the Trinity. In addition, many highly esteemed Trinitarians admit the Bible DOES NOT teach a Trinity. It did not come into existence until the 2nd century and was not admitted into Church doctrin until the 5th century.

Quasar
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I did not mention 'the trinity'. Read before you criticise. I spoke of the tri-unity of God which Jesus and the Apostles all taught eg.Matt.28.19.
 
Q

Quasar92

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Aug 19, 2016
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#156
wattie said:
John_14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

He is going to the Father..

The Father is in a greater place..

Therefore the Father is greater.

Doesn't mean the Father is superior.

The president of the USA is greater than me in POSITION.

But we are both humans.. equal in that sense.
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According to the following Scriptures, the Father is superior to the Son. See also Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.

Jn.8:28 (NIV) " So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

Jn.14:10 (NIV) "Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

Jn.14:28 (NIV) “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

Jn.17:3 (NIV) Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Heb.1:1 "On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things,and through whom He made the universe."


Quasar92
 
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V

valiant

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#157
Mar 22, 2015
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#157
Quasar92 said:
According to the following Scriptures, the Father is superior to the Son. See also Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.




Jn.8:28 (NIV) " So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."



Jn.14:10 (NIV) "Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."


Jn.14:28 (NIV) “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."



Jn.17:3 (NIV) Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."



Heb.1:1 "On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But intheselastdaysHe has spokento usbyHis Son,whomHe appointedheirof all things,andthroughwhom He madetheuniverse."


Quasar92
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He took the superior position in the working out of salvation, He was not superior in essence and being. (John 17.5; matt -1128.19; phil 2.9-11)
 
Q

Quasar92

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#158
valiant said:
He took the superior position in the working out of salvation, He was not superior in essence and being. (John 17.5; matt -1128.19; phil 2.9-11)
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The very Scriptures I posted that you quoted, refute you. You are possessed by Trinitarian deception.


Quasar
 
Dude653

Dude653

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#159
Mar 19, 2011
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#159
Quasar92 said:
According to the following Scriptures, the Father is superior to the Son. See also Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.

Jn.8:28 (NIV) " So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

Jn.14:10 (NIV) "Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

Jn.14:28 (NIV) “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

Jn.17:3 (NIV) Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Heb.1:1 "On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things,and through whom He made the universe."


Quasar92
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NIV is a horrible translation...just sayin
 
Q

Quasar92

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#160
Dude653 said:
NIV is a horrible translation...just sayin
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It won't make one bit of difference in which translation you want to post, they are all going to provide the same Scriptural truths I posted from the NIV.


Quasar92
 
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