Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Gideon300

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Funny enough you lay out almost perfectly why there is not freewill. The presence of outer influence means no freewill. The sum of consequences means no freewill. God holding anyone accountable means they don't have freewill. It does however mean there is one will, which is God's will, thank God therefore for both his mercy and his swift execution of justice, God's will be done forever and ever!




Here they go trying to claim that their sins put them on the same level as God. That's like exactly how the serpent beguiled the woman.

God asked man "did you eat from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" Man says "the woman gave it to me, and I did eat."
Is this a lie or the truth?

God then asked woman "why did you do this?" Woman says "the serpent beguiled me and I did eat."
Is this a lie or the truth?

God curses the serpent saying "because you did this..."

So it is that man and woman told God the truth and the narrative of the verses immediately before proves it but that the serpent he is the one that did lie and is the father of lies. He told her she has freewill to eat any of the trees, he told her she won't die, and he told her that by sinning she would become like God. None of what the serpent said came to pass because it was all a lie.

2 Peter 2:19
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
By your definition, there is no such thing as free will. God cannot lie, so God does not have free will. I beg to differ. You conflate decision with consequences. Adam and Eve were free to choose with just one caveat. If they disobeyed, they had to suffer the consequences. If they had no free will, they would have been robots.

Deteronomy 30:
11“For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off." (Read the whole chapter for context).

God stated that Israel could obey God's law - if they chose to. The problem is not with the Law. The problem is that there is no desire to obey God in the heart of fallen man. If man had no free will, then God would be unjust to hold him accountable. Who takes a lion to court for attacking a gazelle? It is doing what lions do. Even the fallen world knows that man is responsible for his actions, much as many try to wriggle out of that truth.
 
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By your definition, there is no such thing as free will. God cannot lie, so God does not have free will. I beg to differ. You conflate decision with consequences. Adam and Eve were free to choose with just one caveat. If they disobeyed, they had to suffer the consequences. If they had no free will, they would have been robots.

Deteronomy 30:
11“For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off." (Read the whole chapter for context).

God stated that Israel could obey God's law - if they chose to. The problem is not with the Law. The problem is that there is no desire to obey God in the heart of fallen man. If man had no free will, then God would be unjust to hold him accountable. Who takes a lion to court for attacking a gazelle? It is doing what lions do. Even the fallen world knows that man is responsible for his actions, much as many try to wriggle out of that truth.
God is the only one with actual freedom, just because freewill doesn't exist doesn't change God in any way whatsoever, it means that there is nothing outside of God's will. In the case of Adam and Eve they were in fact not free to choose. God did not give them a choice, he gave them a clear command and told them what would happen if they disobeyed. It is in fact the serpent that told the woman that she had the freewill to choose to eat any of the trees, and this was a lie aimed at influencing her to basically kill herself. Likewise for Israel when they were given the Law they weren't given a choice, it was do the will of God or get destroyed from off the land and scattered to all the corners of the Earth. When they obeyed they were established and when they disobeyed they were destroyed very famously.

Just because there is no freewill does not make God unjust. It is impossible for God to be unjust because he is God and he is not subject to his creation, but rather the creation is subject to God. God is always right in all his ways and he is never wrong. Nor does the lack of freewill absolve man of any guilt, but rather makes man unjust because man commits errors to their own hurt and thinks they are free when in truth they're just bound into the pathway of error which destination ends in destruction and condemnation. We're just going in circles at this point though as was easily predicted not that it is any great prophecy but is the destiny of all the freewill discourses and topics that it either must devolve or just circle back always so that even the topic itself proves there is not freewill but rather there is the unbreakable parameters of destiny.
 

Gideon300

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Impossible hmm, maybe not.

Matthew 4;1
Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil.
Jesus chose to be led. He had free will. He obeyed God perfectly in every way. He chose God's will in preference to self will.
God is the only one with actual freedom, just because freewill doesn't exist doesn't change God in any way whatsoever, it means that there is nothing outside of God's will. In the case of Adam and Eve they were in fact not free to choose. God did not give them a choice, he gave them a clear command and told them what would happen if they disobeyed. It is in fact the serpent that told the woman that she had the freewill to choose to eat any of the trees, and this was a lie aimed at influencing her to basically kill herself. Likewise for Israel when they were given the Law they weren't given a choice, it was do the will of God or get destroyed from off the land and scattered to all the corners of the Earth. When they obeyed they were established and when they disobeyed they were destroyed very famously.

Just because there is no freewill does not make God unjust. It is impossible for God to be unjust because he is God and he is not subject to his creation, but rather the creation is subject to God. God is always right in all his ways and he is never wrong. Nor does the lack of freewill absolve man of any guilt, but rather makes man unjust because man commits errors to their own hurt and thinks they are free when in truth they're just bound into the pathway of error which destination ends in destruction and condemnation. We're just going in circles at this point though as was easily predicted not that it is any great prophecy but is the destiny of all the freewill discourses and topics that it either must devolve or just circle back always so that even the topic itself proves there is not freewill but rather there is the unbreakable parameters of destiny.
You do not know what free will is. God has no free will by your concept. According to Hebrews 6:18, it is impossible for God to lie. So He is not free to lie. Titus 1:2 says that God cannot lie.
 
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2 Timothy 1:9~ He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began. Ephesians 1:4-5~ He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1:11~ In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will.
 
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Jesus chose to be led. He had free will. He obeyed God perfectly in every way. He chose God's will in preference to self will.

You do not know what free will is. God has no free will by your concept. According to Hebrews 6:18, it is impossible for God to lie. So He is not free to lie. Titus 1:2 says that God cannot lie.
I hope I don't have to explain that Jesus is God.

Freewill is the concept that man has the freedom to make decisions without influence. God is not a man that he should lie. So no, by definition God is the only one with freedom and God's will is the only actual will that exists and God's will shall be done and since God's will shall be done God's will is inevitable destiny.
 
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Jesus chose to be led. He had free will. He obeyed God perfectly in every way. He chose God's will in preference to self will.
This is what some say the natural man is capable of doing. You know how Jesus suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane, being so challenged to lay aside His human will to do the will of His Father? Yeah. That is the ability many ascribe to the natural man, minus sweating blood, because in the mind of the Pelagian, surrendering to God is a piece of cake, since man is not that evil to begin with after all. He is not really a slave to sin and a lover of darkness, he does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness, he is not captive to the will of the devil and oh, if he is, it must be that the devils' will is for you submit to God even though Scripture says the natural man is incapable, yes, incapable of doing so! The flesh profits nothing and a corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit, nor can the natural man receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God but all that is turned on its head to say the natural man possesses and can do the things only the spiritual man is capable of. According to some of these people, God is an unjust tyrant kidnapping people against their will if He acts unilaterally.


Revelation 3:8; Luke 13:24 ~ Behold, I have placed before you an open door, which no one can shut. Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.
 

lrs68

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Yea that's why the several forgeries of the lost book that the Pharisees made thousands of years later weren't added to the canon.
You seem to struggle with timelines, history, and Mathematics.

What David and Joshua read and quoted was written literally 3,000+ years before the Pharisees ever existed and also the fact that the Jews have the Hebrew manuscripts from the time of David and Joshua in their archives. Cracks me up to think you could possibly believe that Gentiles would have access to such historical treasures.
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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Sorry, It just never entered my mind that God created all things just so He could put on a performance for angles....

He teaches lessons by the "shows" he prearranges to take place.

It's kind of like what happened between David and the prophet Nathan, when the prophet made up a little story to drive David into self realization of his wrong doing.

Read: 2 Samuel 12:1-7a?

And, see why Nathan told David... David, “You are the man!
God is great at making his point by arranging stories in most humbling ways...

The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town,
one rich and the other poor. The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, but the poor man
had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his
children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
“Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or
cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that
belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.”
David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the Lord lives, the man who
did this must die! He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no
pity.”
Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man!
2 Samuel 12:1-7a
See the point? God sometimes uses stories to extract truth that needs to be faced.
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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Adam was Not deceived. In any way. He knew exactly what he was doing. He had the Lord face to face, at all times. He knew he was going to die. He knew his wife was going to die. He knew all of humanity was going to die...............AND he knew and trusted that the Lord was going to save. He personally knew his Savior. It was not a blame game and rolling the dice.

He ate the fruit knowing the consequences for him, his wife and humanity.........And he trusted that his Savior would fix it all in the end.

If he didn't, he would have grabbed Eve and given her the fruit of the tree of life. But Adam was NOT DECEIVED, he knew what the consequences would have been for that choice.........The Lord taught them well.
Adam was not deceived. Scripture tells us that much. So then, do you believe that Adam was with Eve when Satan was speaking to her? Or was scripture speaking of a subsequent time when she gave him the fruit to eat?

Who, exactly, do you think might have tried to deceive Adam, and when?
 

Mem

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seems like eve lietened to the serpents lie ….then she spoke to Adam and he then hearkened to her words like it says there and then he ate the fruit …but just what I think is there pretty clearly
it seems likely also “ somehow they already knew it was pleasant to look upon “
1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, because she was fully deceived, fell into transgression.
The generally accepted speculation of Adam's having fallen by "hearkening unto his wife's voice" and "not deceived is that he either didn't believe what the serpent said or else, I'd have to assume that Eve repeated what the serpent said to Adam and he didn't believe her but ate anyway.

However, it'd occurred to me there may be a different view of it in that Eve was deceived by the serpents lie that taking from the tree would be "good" for them. And it is my opinion that the moment she 'decided for herself' that the tree was "pleasant" and "good" for food was the actual moment that she fell into transgression before reaching out and confirming it (that personal opinion) to 'the rest of creation and all its angels, in deed. Effectively witnessing that her opinion was superior to God's. But, when scripture says that Adam was not deceived, why should we jump to the conclusion that anyone tried to persuade him of anything other than maybe, "the tree is pleasant to look at and good for food?" And, apart from the clue that he listened to the voice of his wife, why should we even go so far as to presume even that happened? Scripture only says, 'and she gave it to her husband with her'.
 

Mem

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So, that leaves the question, was Adam listening in on the serpent's and Eve's conversation? As I think more of it, the phrasing used "hearkened to the voice of your wife..." seems especially peculiar to such as that situation :unsure:. Rather than what might be used when speaking of a situation of her speaking directly to him and trying to convince him of a lie, it strikes me that he was with her while the serpent was speaking to her and 'hearkening to her voice' may be archaic way of expressing agreement with her (while listening to their conversation) concerning that which she came to judge as 'that the tree was pleasant to look at and good for food.' And all without prompting except to be offered it for the taking.
 
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Many have probably realised i don't think we can exercise free will, even think it's impossible for us to. Won't explain why i think it's an impossiblility for us yet, think it's useful for some to express why they think it exists first.

I have no doubt we have and can make choices throughout life, however, think our options are far more restricted than most realise. What do you think?
Returning to the OP, I agree that there is some truth that is axiomatic/unavoidable/inescapable, because in order to study reality it appears that one must (logically or implicitly) begin by assuming at least the reality of the student. Thus, absolute skepticism in philosophy is like absolute zero in physics: it serves as a hypothetical point that is not actually achieved or else nothing would happen.

The truth represented by skepticism is that finite human beings cannot know absolutely, infallibly, perfectly or objectively. I find this truth expressed by the apostle Paul in the New Testament (NT) book of 1 Corinthians 13:9&12, “We know in part . . . We see but a poor reflection” (as in a fogged mirror). However, the element of uncertainty does not prevent would-be skeptics from talking as if knowledge with some degree of confidence were possible the moment they attempt to communicate their doubts. An agnostic has “certain” assumptions at least implicitly: that truth is believable, rational and meaningful, even though unprovable or subjective.

These three affirmations seem to be a priori truth or unavoidable (beginning) beliefs:

1. Truth or reality exists. The classic expression of this belief was by Rene Descartes (d.1650): cogito ergo sum: “I think, therefore I am” (cf. Rodin’s sculpture; thinking is believing). The Old Testament (OT) says in Exodus 3:14 that God is “I am” (the essence of existence).

2. (Objective) reality is subjectively known by seekers. David Hume (d. 1776) was a notable proponent of this opinion, and 2 Corinthians 5:7 expresses this truth by saying, “We live by faith, not by sight” (or proof, cf. 1CR 13:9&12 cited previously). [From this point biblical books in parentheses will be abbreviated.]

3. Reality is meaningful and communicable or able to be discussed rationally in fellowship with other truthseekers. As Isaiah 1:18a (c.735 B.C.) says, “Come now, let us reason together.” Perhaps whoever invented language should be regarded as the founder of this fact, because the discussion of reality uses language as the means, and in order to communicate sufficiently for attaining agreement or unity, it is necessary to have a common language and cultural context. (I hope that as Earthlings using English these needs are met for you and me :^)

Having established three unavoidable or axiomatic beliefs, what is the logical point from which the varieties of beliefs extant in the world diverge? Only the first student or one with a tabula rasa (blank slate)—like a newly sentient child—actually starts exploring reality from the beginning, (a pre-sentient infant in the womb is completely agnostic or without knowledge of every ism), so we must “begin” by seeking to assume the position or condition of adult innocence (unprejudice).

Imagining that we have suddenly begun to exist as a mentally competent or normally intelligent human being (like Adam and Eve in Genesis), certainly, our immediate concern would be meeting survival needs, but as soon as there was time for reflection, would we not wonder why we were “born”, how we should behave, and what we ought to accomplish with your life? Since absolute skepticism or agnosticism is unattainable for thinkers or truthseekers, there are only [IOW, volition is limited to choosing between only] two qualitatively different ways of answering these questions.

One way is by assuming that there is no ultimate “whyness” or purpose beyond survival and avoiding pain, so it does not ultimately matter what one believes or does, because humanity merely evolved from eternal energy/matter, into which it “devolves” at death. You may desire for some reason to survive and to save the world, but if life becomes too painful you may wish you were never born and want to destroy the world, because there is no good reason you ought to be like Messiah rather than like Mania or to be loving rather than maniacal. You may believe and act like evil exists or not, because life is a farce or a continual “King of the Hill” (KOTH) struggle against human adversaries and various other types of adversity, having no ultimate or universal moral imperative (UMI).

The second type of answer is that life is NOT a farce—that existence has meaning, and how one believes and behaves does matter for some non-arbitrary reason. This answer seems more appealing to me and almost logically imperative, although some people appear to prefer the path of nihilism (cf. MT 13:14-15).

I call the first type of answer cosmaterialism, because it views reality as consisting only of the material cosmos or universe and as having only four dimensions (space plus time), which are perceived by the five physical senses. I call the second way of believing moralism, because—while accepting the reality of the physical/material—it also affirms a fifth dimension perceived by a sixth intuitive or spiritual sense that gives reality a logical (cf. Logos) basis for meaning and morality.

The choice between cosmaterialism and moralism logically is the first fundamental choice in life (cf. GN 3:5). It can be thought of as a watershed decision that divides all people into two essentially different philosophical categories or world-views like a continental divide, although the analogy breaks down at the points the various oceans connect. A person who believes cosmaterialism, moral nihilism and that life’s struggles are meaningless frequently tends to seek escape even via suicide, whether by one act or by a downward spiral of self-destructive behavior. Again, until and unless this option were somehow proven beyond doubt, moralism or viewing life as meaningful seems to be the better belief/choice.

(As Christians, we have chosen moralism :^)
 

studier

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Magenta

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And, apart from the clue that he listened to the voice of his wife, why should we even go so far as to presume even that happened? Scripture only says, 'and she gave it to her husband with her'.
Good day, Mem. Just wondering what it is you are alluding to with presuming
something happened? Hearkening to someone means you listened to them.

So, that leaves the question, was Adam listening in on the serpent's and Eve's conversation? As I think more of it, the phrasing used "hearkened to the voice of your wife..." seems especially peculiar to such as that situation :unsure:. Rather than what might be used when speaking of a situation of her speaking directly to him and trying to convince him of a lie, it strikes me that he was with her while the serpent was speaking to her and 'hearkening to her voice' may be archaic way of expressing agreement with her (while listening to their conversation) concerning that which she came to judge as 'that the tree was pleasant to look at and good for food.' And all without prompting except to be offered it for the taking.
Scripture does indicate that Adam was right there with Eve when she ate the forbidden fruit, but I see no reason to assume he heard anything the serpent said to Eve, as there are multiple means of communication that could exclude his comprehension of what transpired aside from Eve informing him of the specifics, even if he heard sounds which would not necessarily lend themselves to understanding. Also, Eve could have simply said, here, have some, and Adam could have accepted and eaten with little to no thought on the matter at all.
 

SaysWhat

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Jesus chose to be led. He had free will. He obeyed God perfectly in every way. He chose God's will in preference to self will.
Isn't Jesus will the will of God or no?

Was satan forced to tempt Jesus?
Or was it something he requested and God accommodated the request.
 

Magenta

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Isn't Jesus will the will of God or no?

Was satan forced to tempt Jesus?
Or was it something he requested and God accommodated the request.
Jesus had a human will which He struggled greatly against to the point of sweating blood
in the Garden of Gethsemane in order to lay it aside and submit to the will of the Father.
The natural man hardly has the ability to do the same. Hardly? Erm, not at all.
He cannot even understand the things of God, how is he to believe them?
And then decide to submit to the One he is hostile in his mind toward?
The gospel message is foolishness to him and he is captive to the will of the devil.
A lover of darkness, slave to sin, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.
Something has to change first. The spiritual man can do what the natural man cannot.


Satan needs permission and has been given it from what I can tell.


Luke 22:31-32 ~ Satan has asked to sift each of you like wheat...
:D
 

SaysWhat

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Jesus had a human will which He struggled greatly against to the point of sweating blood
in the Garden of Gethsemane in order to lay it aside and submit to the will of the Father.
The natural man hardly has the ability to do the same. Hardly? Erm, not at all.
He cannot even understand the things of God, how is he to believe them?
And then decide to submit to the One he is hostile in his mind toward?


Satan needs permission and has been given it from what I can tell.


Luke 22:31-32 ~ Satan has asked to sift each of you like wheat...
:D
He isn't able to submit a will of His own. Sweating blood they both do.

John 5:19

Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, the Son is not able to do anything on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, the Son likewise does these things.

Yes satan needs permission of what he request.
 

Magenta

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He isn't able to submit a will of His own. Sweating blood they both do.

John 5:19

Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, the Son is not able to do anything on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, the Son likewise does these things.
Your first sentence makes no sense. Neither does the second...
 

Mem

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Good day, Mem. Just wondering what it is you are alluding to with presuming
something happened? Hearkening to someone means you listened to them.
The sum of the 3 posts I submitted was a progression of thoughts after posing a couple of questions in a reply to @Kroogz ' thoughts. Perhaps nobody else was able to grasp my language either. Oh! that is, other than @GRACE_ambassador, Thank you Grace! ;)
Your first sentence makes no sense. Neither does the second...
If I understand @SaysWhat and your position of free will correctly, you both believe that, though everyone has a will, none have free will?