Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[1still_waters]

So from my posts above, let me summarize Catholic views of Mary, from their own writings/practices.

They say Mary is..

1. Our life.
2. Our hope.
3. A holy Queen.
4.A sweet chain linking us to God.
5.An object of praise in prayer.
6.Reigning over the entire world.
7.Disposing of the treastures of the Divine Redeemers Kingdom.

This is more than 'veneration'. This is deification. Only deities receive praise in prayer. Only deities are described as reigning over the entire world.

 

[zeroturbulence]

Come on Catholics! Defend your creed, debate, that's what forums are for.

I used to try and defend my faith here but only one person tried to actually listen to what I was saying. The rest ignored what I presented and just kept repeating the same old statements that I was addressing. You can't debate with people who don't care at all about what you have to say.

 

[zeroturbulence]

Wel, when I was still a Protestant I believed Catholics to be Christian. Mostly. That said, there is a lot of confusion out there amongst our Protestant brethren as to what we do really believe. Just look at posts which espouse the mistaken belief we re-sacrifice Jesus through the celebration of the Holy Eucharist.

Well then you were an informed protestant. I'm glad to know protestants like your former self do exist. I've actually a couple of them on this site. They seem to be quite rare though.

 

[Tandemtruths]

Everyone should question themselves WHO they petition, and also WHY they petition. If a person identified as being a member of the International House of Catholics (IHOC) petitions The Lord God Almighty in the name of his son Jesus The Christ, who is the truth and the light, who are they then following after? ''Christian'' is a title, so is ''Catholic''. Remove idols and beware of false teachers ALL OF US. When we direct something in the second and third person, we should also remember the first person. Organization apart from -as the revealed word of God teaches- isn't from his revealed word. A statement that will undoubtedly get me a few ''thank you captain obvious'' remarks.(but we are a people who can't find our sunglasses on our heads) How much time do we become vocal in and of ourselves, and do not let the spirit through us spread his witness? I know I can't shut up sometimes.(okay, a lot of times) Let us note in our arguments how many times we say -I- believe or -ME-. It's peculiar the simplicity of it all, but do we follow Christ because we are Christian, or because we are Catholic? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO We are followers of Christ BECAUSE we follow Christ. This statement is nearly childish, but the truth of the love through Christ Jesus and HIS word makes it possible. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.- The word is truth. It always has been, and always will be. Invest not in doctrines apart from the word of God, not only because they aren't true(which in and of itself should be enough) but because they are dead end detour from the lighted path. All who are born into sin need to remember this (i.e. Everyone) We need to dawn the Armor of God, and let the word prevail, which as a sword will cut through falsehood.
Personally, I am fine that the thread was removed if it was done to calm hostility, but only truth can defeat heresy to be frank (even though that's not my name )

 

[wanting2believe]

I am Catholic and tho I do have a veneration for Mary.. I actually do think the same as roboOp... the only thing roboOp.. what I dont agree is how many other Christians take it to themselves to be saying that we are not Christians and how we are going to hell that to me does not sound very Christian. Oh before I was a Catholic.. I started my Journey as a Jehovah Witness (study the word with them never really became one), Then I went to a baptist Church several years, then I went to an apostolic baptist church, then an postconsonantal Church and among others.. all Im trying to say.. is that I do have enough experience with a few churches and how they show their faith..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wel, when I was still a Protestant I believed Catholics to be Christian. Mostly. That said, there is a lot of confusion out there amongst our Protestant brethren as to what we do really believe. Just look at posts which espouse the mistaken belief we re-sacrifice Jesus through the celebration of the Holy Eucharist.

And here we go again, yet once again you prove me right.

1. They hate us, They are attacking us, Or they do not know what we believe.

What ever happened to humility? The church is supposed to be humble. I do not see it in the roman church at all. Not everyone is as dumbfounded of what catholics believe as you think

Many who you call protestant are so close to catholic, it is no wonder you would follow them. The roman church has more rules and regulations. thus can have a better chance of making it to heaven. yet both are depending on self and not Christ to save themselves.

 

[JaumeJ]

We try to welcome everyone to our site including people who grow up with Catholic tradition because of course we want to lead people to the truth.

But sometimes it's perceived that we tolerate error and heresy. Please understand first of all that we don't screen every thread and post in this forum. YOU can help with that. If there's something that you really think we should deal with, then use the Report button (there's a Report button on every post). But please understand that there will be some error and we don't remove all error or even all heresy from the site, partly because it's an opportunity for Christians to correct it and respond with the word of God. But if there's too much of it or too much from one person then we do some housecleaning. We certainly don't want our site to be dominated by Catholic heresy or whatever heresy or error, and we don't want people to get the impression that we just tolerate all of that.

So for the record, Catholicism is heresy. That's what the admins of this site believe.

Mary WAS A SINNER.

She needed a savior, just like you and me.

She is NOT the "mother of God". God has no mother, because God is God. Yes Jesus is God, and Mary was his mother, but we have to understand the dual nature of Jesus. He was 100% God yes, and also 100% man. Mary was his mother as a man, not as God. No where does the scripture refer to Mary as the "mother of God". And in fact, she's not even mentioned in all the epistles. All the New Testament instruction to the church is all about Jesus, not Mary. They never said "hail Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners". They always said JESUS .. JESUS... JESUS.

This is preaching to the choir for most people here. But it regularly happens that we start to accumulate Catholics here who really promote and argue their Catholicism, along with all the heresy.

So for the record, if anyone wants or needs to hear it, we don't agree with Catholic heresy. And yes it is heresy to exalt any other human being as sinless to the same level as Jesus (as the Catholics do with Mary -- they actually teach that Mary was sinless like Jesus!!!), and put equal focus on a person other than Jesus.

At the same time, we understand that no one is born a Christian. That's why Jesus said you must be born again. So we welcome all who are seeking -- Catholics, Muslims, homosexuals, and even protestants who are "Christian" only by tradition -- to experience our fellowship here on this site and learn the truth that Jesus is the way and the truth and the life and no one can come to the father except through Him. And there is only one God, and one mediator between God, the man Christ Jesus. Because he was both 100% man and 100% God, that makes him the perfect mediator between man and God. That's why the scripture also tells us to go straight to Jesus -- go to the throne of grace with confidence, knowing that he can understand our weaknesses and everything, since he lived as a man like us (and even experienced all temptation). Hence we don't need Mary to go to or go through -- that defeats the purpose of Jesus.

I saw my mother-in-law die before my eyes putting her faith in Mary. Days before she died I asked her if Mary can save her and she actually said yes. Then in her dying moments, my father-in-law pushed me in front of her to pray for her as she was dying before our eyes. I simply prayed out loud in front of everyone that she would put her faith in Jesus, and ONLY JESUS. There was protesting in the background "wala na Maria? wala na Maria?", which is Filipino language for "No Mary?? No Marry??". You see how deceived they all are. It is sad. You see how the devil uses that poison to add something to Jesus.

So I hope it's clear what we believe and we hope that we can promote the truth here in love.

Thank you. Why aren't you in the threads more. Thank you.

 

[frankleespeaking]

I used to try and defend my faith here but only one person tried to actually listen to what I was saying. The rest ignored what I presented and just kept repeating the same old statements that I was addressing. You can't debate with people who don't care at all about what you have to say.

Its probably like when I go to liberal forums and try to convince them the bible does not condone homosexuality........when people don't listen to the straight forward plainly written text that declare certain actions are wrong they will never change they're direction........I see this as a similiar problem with the Catholic sect, when you refuse to acknowledge plainly written scripture but rely greater on traditions passed down by men. then no change will ever occur, It was like this when the monk Luther read the bible and seen contradictions and blatant apostasy

 

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

The whole premise of this battle of Catholics vs Protestants, is their own beliefs about what contains the Whole Truth about God.
The Catholics say the Church does, while on the other hand the Protestants say the Bible does.

My question to the Protestants is if the Bible contains the truth of God, how are you so sure of its authenticity? Catholics and Orthodox (I am Orthodox) teach that it is the Church which gave us the New Testament canon of Scripture and therefore it is the Church which is holds the sole authority of Truth. They say that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:15), which I believe it to be as well (Orthodox Church that is).

After knowing all of this, what is it that convinces you Protestants that the Bible is the Infallible Word of God? Just because somebody told you so? What then makes this any different than if someone told you the Koran was the Word of God? Many people believe the Koran to be the Word of God just as strongly as we Christians believe the Bible to be the Word of God. But how would we know if it really was the Word of God and not a counterfeit?

Catholics and Orthodox do not just blindly believe in what somebody tells us is the Truth. We don't just blindly believe in a holy book of our liking. We hold that the Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15), and therefore we have solid evidence of where the Truth of God is and of the Bible. With the Church, we have ample evidence which backs up the Bible as Truth because the Church made the Bible. The Church is what gave us the New Testament canon of Scripture. It is what selected the 27 books of the NT. Therefore, if you don't trust it you cannot trust the Bible.

Without the Church though, you may as well believe in whatever 'holy' book you come across, or whatever anyone else teaches (A Muslim or a Buddhist) since you since you don't have a pillar of truth to walk on. Go ahead, pick up a Koran or any other holy book, they're all the same right? So where is the proof that one of them is the true Word of God? All of them speak the same thing, "pick me, I am the Truth".

 

[TomB_2012]

Christianity is not just Protestant. Christianity is a religion with three denominations; Catholic, Protestant and East Orthodox. Catholicism and the East Orthodox are not separate from Christianity. They are part of it.

Yeah, Catholics believe that Mary is the mother of God. They believe that Mary was crowned the Queen of Heaven. They believe that Mary was sinless, just like Jesus.

Yeah, Catholics believe that they are not the Saints, and that the Saints are people in Catholic history (sorry if this info is incorrect).

Catholics use books in their Bibles that we don't use in our Protestant Bibles.

SO WHAT!!!!!!!!!!

Catholicism and the East Orthodox are not separate religions heading straight for hell. They are our brothers and sisters in Christ. We should stop attacking them.

I'm gonna be honest. If I went somewhere and the nearest church was a Catholic church, and the nearest Protestant church was a hundred miles away, I'd go to the Catholic church. Not because I'm lazy, but because you are still worshipping God in a Catholic church.

Respect them instead of persecuting them.

Catholic Doctrine is not a heresy. I would happily welcome Catholic Doctrine. But I follow the Protestant Doctrine.

I would discuss Catholic Doctrine with Catholics. Just like I would discuss Protestant Doctrine with Protestants. The same with Islamic Doctrine. I would discuss Islamic Doctrine with Muslims and Christians who are interested in evangelism. But I would discuss Protestant Doctrine with Catholics as well. If they allowed me. I would respect their request. The same with Muslims, if they didn't want to discuss Protestant Doctrine, I'd respect that.

To all the Catholic and Anglican Christians, Kyrie Eleison and Christe Eleison. You should be familiar with it. I think it's Greek, but I'm not sure. What does 'Eleison' mean? I have an idea what 'Kyrie' and 'Christe' mean.

 

[dscherck]

This is from part of the Rosary prayer.

They call Mary, holy Queen, our life, our hope.

Jesus is the only holy one. Jesus is our only life. Jesus is our only hope.

I post this very short example because Catholics are very good at taking an 'accusation', then saying, "Hey we don't do that'." : Then giving an explanation that puts a frogs hair distance between what they say they do and what they were accused of. In essensce if there is only a frogs hairs distance, you're still kinda doing it!

Anyways this serves as a clear example that they DO treat Mary how we claim they DO treat Mary. They can't wiggle outta this one with a frogs hair distance argument.

The Hail, Holy Queen: Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley, of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus; O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

*

Well... let's answer this.

Let's go line by line.

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! our life, our sweetness, and our hope!

In ancient Israel, the mother of the King was given the title of Queen mother, and was also given a place of honour in the court. We see this in the actions of King Solomon. So there should be no issue among anyone in realizing that because of her Son's kingship, she is properly deserving of the title of Queen. This honour comes to her because of who her Son is. And it was through her obedience to God, that God was able to bring Christ to us. So she is the mother of He who gives us life. Because of her obedience and sweet demeanour, she brought hope to us. We place our hope in the promises given to her by God. Through her obedience we found the hope of salvation.

To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley, of tears.

Is it not acceptable in your mind to ask other Christians to pray for us? And after all, we see in Scripture that Christ was ever open to her intercessions. Just look at how she interceded for the newly married couple in Cana. Because she asked, Christ performed His first miracle and started His public ministry, despite the fact, "my time has not yet come..." Christ gave us Mary as our mother when He said to John, "Behold your mother." She is the first Christian, the model for us all, and when we accepted Christ as our Lord and Saviour, we accepted ALL of Him. That includes accepting Mary as our mother too. So why should we not cry out to her and ask her to remember us to her Son?

Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus; O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary

Not sure what the issue with this verse is either. Are we not supposed to ask fellow Christians to pray for us again? Are we not supposed to look forward to being shown Jesus? Is Mary not loving? Is she not inclined to be merciful (clement)? As the model for all Christians, I'd be surprised if she wasn't a paragon of mercy.


How is this worship? True worship involves offering sacrifice. Are we offering a sacrifice to Mary? NO!
Is saying "Hail" to her a form of worship? Nonsense! You wouldn't claim Gabriel was offering her worship by saying "Hail Mary full of grace" would you?

I fail to see what the issue is. I think it's a wonderful prayer and Our Lord would be pleased that we ask His mother to remember us in prayer. Just as I am sure He is pleased when we offer prayers on behalf of one another.

 

[dscherck]

And here we go again, yet once again you prove me right.

1. They hate us, They are attacking us, Or they do not know what we believe.

What ever happened to humility? The church is supposed to be humble. I do not see it in the roman church at all. Not everyone is as dumbfounded of what catholics believe as you think

Many who you call protestant are so close to catholic, it is no wonder you would follow them. The roman church has more rules and regulations. thus can have a better chance of making it to heaven. yet both are depending on self and not Christ to save themselves.

Actually, you're just proving my point. You still don't know what we actually teach. You still assume we teach something else. We don't offer new sacrifices or re-sacrifice Jesus in the Eucharist. Nor do we depend on ourselves to save us, we depend on Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Christianity is not just Protestant. Christianity is a religion with three denominations; Catholic, Protestant and East Orthodox. Catholicism and the East Orthodox are not separate from Christianity. They are part of it.

Yeah, Catholics believe that Mary is the mother of God. They believe that Mary was crowned the Queen of Heaven. They believe that Mary was sinless, just like Jesus.

Yeah, Catholics believe that they are not the Saints, and that the Saints are people in Catholic history (sorry if this info is incorrect).

Catholics use books in their Bibles that we don't use in our Protestant Bibles.

SO WHAT!!!!!!!!!!

Catholicism and the East Orthodox are not separate religions heading straight for hell. They are our brothers and sisters in Christ. We should stop attacking them.

I'm gonna be honest. If I went somewhere and the nearest church was a Catholic church, and the nearest Protestant church was a hundred miles away, I'd go to the Catholic church. Not because I'm lazy, but because you are still worshipping God in a Catholic church.

Respect them instead of persecuting them.

Catholic Doctrine is not a heresy. I would happily welcome Catholic Doctrine. But I follow the Protestant Doctrine.

I would discuss Catholic Doctrine with Catholics. Just like I would discuss Protestant Doctrine with Protestants. The same with Islamic Doctrine. I would discuss Islamic Doctrine with Muslims and Christians who are interested in evangelism. But I would discuss Protestant Doctrine with Catholics as well. If they allowed me. I would respect their request. The same with Muslims, if they didn't want to discuss Protestant Doctrine, I'd respect that.

To all the Catholic and Anglican Christians, Kyrie Eleison and Christe Eleison. You should be familiar with it. I think it's Greek, but I'm not sure. What does 'Eleison' mean? I have an idea what 'Kyrie' and 'Christe' mean.

Sorry my friend. God tells us through his apostles there is but one gospel. That has huge implications in this discussion. For what is the gospel? It is the good news. It is what we believe that gets us to heaven.

Paul tells us if any one teach a gospel other that what we have taught, they are to be anathema'd. For he said many teach a different gospel, which is not a replacement gospel. there is one and only one.

Knowing this, either the catholic and orthodox churches got it right (as they are united in their gospel) and they are going to heaven and them only. Or they have it wrong, and are not our brothers in Christ. there are no other explanations or beliefs.

 

[jb]

So for the record, Catholicism is heresy. That's what the admins of this site believe....

So for the record, if anyone wants or needs to hear it, we don't agree with Catholic heresy...

Have to say, I think you and the other Admins by taking this very narrow stance have thrown the baby out with the bath water!

I know many born again Roman Catholics (who love the Lord Jesus with all their hearts), who are baptised in the Holy Spirit and attend Mass and manifest the fruit of the Spirit in abundance...I find these godly brothers and sisters generally more loving and Christ like than the born again Protestants that I know or would meet...

Yahweh Shalom...

 

[OFM]

i never heard of Internation House of Catholics before.

 

[Coreycody1234]

so even though we worship god. were witches? that Doesn't make any sense at all. we have slightly altered beliefs that you do. the only difference is you guys are more laid back about church. and you believe that his rising is more important than his death. sure we have a longer bible, and we do stuff differently, but aren't we all children of God? no matter how we became Children of God or how we reach heaven? It shouldn't. if if Catholics aren't Christians what are we? we have the same bible you do with the addition of other books that were found later on. I don't it. it says in the bible that if you follow God you go to heaven. Looks like catholics will see you all in heaven.

 

[RoboOp]

So from my posts above, let me summarize Catholic views of Mary, from their own writings/practices.

They say Mary is..

1. Our life.
2. Our hope.
3. A holy Queen.
4.A sweet chain linking us to God.
5.An object of praise in prayer.
6.Reigning over the entire world.
7.Disposing of the treastures of the Divine Redeemers Kingdom.

This is more than 'veneration'. This is deification. Only deities receive praise in prayer. Only deities are described as reigning over the entire world.

Great points, stillwaters!

You overlooked one (from your quotes). She was also referred to as our Advocate (even capitalized). Another role of Jesus! (1 John 2:1).

Not to mention, they actually believe and teach that Mary was absolutely sinless, just like Jesus!!! (Did anybody hear that???)

Have to say, I think you and the other Admins by taking this very narrow stance have thrown the baby out with the bath water!

I know many born again Roman Catholics (who love the Lord Jesus with all their hearts), who are baptised in the Holy Spirit and attend Mass and manifest the fruit of the Spirit in abundance...I find these godly brothers and sisters generally more loving and Christ like than the born again Protestants that I know or would meet...

Yahweh Shalom...

Yes jb I know some Catholics are saved -- I have some Catholic friends here who are saved IN SPITE OF the Catholic Church -- they're the ones who don't believe and go along with all the Mary stuff (e.g., they absolutely don't pray to Mary or ask her to "interceded" for them) and other heresy. (So actually that means they're not truly "Catholic".)

 

[hermanodaniel]

The whole premise of this battle of Catholics vs Protestants, is their own beliefs about what contains the Whole Truth about God.
The Catholics say the Church does, while on the other hand the Protestants say the Bible does.

My question to the Protestants is if the Bible contains the truth of God, how are you so sure of its authenticity? Catholics and Orthodox (I am Orthodox) teach that it is the Church which gave us the New Testament canon of Scripture and therefore it is the Church which is holds the sole authority of Truth. They say that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:15), which I believe it to be as well (Orthodox Church that is).

After knowing all of this, what is it that convinces you Protestants that the Bible is the Infallible Word of God? Just because somebody told you so? What then makes this any different than if someone told you the Koran was the Word of God? Many people believe the Koran to be the Word of God just as strongly as we Christians believe the Bible to be the Word of God. But how would we know if it really was the Word of God and not a counterfeit?

Catholics and Orthodox do not just blindly believe in what somebody tells us is the Truth. We don't just blindly believe in a holy book of our liking. We hold that the Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15), and therefore we have solid evidence of where the Truth of God is and of the Bible. With the Church, we have ample evidence which backs up the Bible as Truth because the Church made the Bible. The Church is what gave us the New Testament canon of Scripture. It is what selected the 27 books of the NT. Therefore, if you don't trust it you cannot trust the Bible.

Without the Church though, you may as well believe in whatever 'holy' book you come across, or whatever anyone else teaches (A Muslim or a Buddhist) since you since you don't have a pillar of truth to walk on. Go ahead, pick up a Koran or any other holy book, they're all the same right? So where is the proof that one of them is the true Word of God? All of them speak the same thing, "pick me, I am the Truth".

Who gave us the Word of God? God did! It's His Word! He spoke it and it shall accomplish all His desires never returning void! Who assures us that the Word of God is indeed the Word of God? The Holy Ghost testifies that the Word is true. Who is the Word of God? Jesus Christ! Who do we glorified by standing on the Word of God as the final authority? Jesus Christ! How do we treat teachings that are not in the Word of God? As if Jesus never said it. It is heresy a lie from the pit of hell. God did not utter it!!! Why is the Church the pillar of all truth? The Church glorifies the Word of God and only the Word of God! What Church is the true Church? The Church that holds the Word of God above all! What makes up the Church of God? The believers who hold unto the Word of God above all! How does one know the truth of God? Faith! How does one acquire? Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God! How come the Word of God is always emphasized over and over and over? Hence the Word OF GOD, again Jesus Christ is the WORD OF GOD!

 

[hermanodaniel]

It is so sad to see the Word of God compromised by tradition contrary to the Word of God! All those who hold onto traditions over the Word of God and labeling it truth because of a false church are worshiping a FALSE CHRIST, a liar, Satan himself disguised! I said it several times and the Word of God has mentioned it countless times in the Scriptures JESUS CHRIST IS THE WORD OF GOD! THERE"S YOUR SOLA SCRIPTURA! MARTIN LUTHER DIDN'T INVENT ANYTHING NEW IT AS PLAIN AS DAY!!!!!!!!!!!! And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3

 

[1still_waters]

Well... let's answer this.

Let's go line by line.



In ancient Israel, the mother of the King was given the title of Queen mother, and was also given a place of honour in the court. We see this in the actions of King Solomon. So there should be no issue among anyone in realizing that because of her Son's kingship, she is properly deserving of the title of Queen. This honour comes to her because of who her Son is. And it was through her obedience to God, that God was able to bring Christ to us. So she is the mother of He who gives us life. Because of her obedience and sweet demeanour, she brought hope to us. We place our hope in the promises given to her by God. Through her obedience we found the hope of salvation.



Is it not acceptable in your mind to ask other Christians to pray for us? And after all, we see in Scripture that Christ was ever open to her intercessions. Just look at how she interceded for the newly married couple in Cana. Because she asked, Christ performed His first miracle and started His public ministry, despite the fact, "my time has not yet come..." Christ gave us Mary as our mother when He said to John, "Behold your mother." She is the first Christian, the model for us all, and when we accepted Christ as our Lord and Saviour, we accepted ALL of Him. That includes accepting Mary as our mother too. So why should we not cry out to her and ask her to remember us to her Son?




Not sure what the issue with this verse is either. Are we not supposed to ask fellow Christians to pray for us again? Are we not supposed to look forward to being shown Jesus? Is Mary not loving? Is she not inclined to be merciful (clement)? As the model for all Christians, I'd be surprised if she wasn't a paragon of mercy.


How is this worship? True worship involves offering sacrifice. Are we offering a sacrifice to Mary? NO!
Is saying "Hail" to her a form of worship? Nonsense! You wouldn't claim Gabriel was offering her worship by saying "Hail Mary full of grace" would you?

I fail to see what the issue is. I think it's a wonderful prayer and Our Lord would be pleased that we ask His mother to remember us in prayer. Just as I am sure He is pleased when we offer prayers on behalf of one another.

And there it is. Trying to put a frogs hair distance between what we say you do and what you actually do.

Read my later posts in the thread. You all DO defiy Mary, no matter what adjective you use to distance yourselves from such fact.