Catholic vs Protestant debate
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It comes down to scripture. To use your example, those who believe OSAS, are not taking into consideration that it requires faith to keep the connection to God's grace. Jesus even said when speaking to his disciples and all believers when he said:
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."
" I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
Branches figurative representing believers. If one who has received Christ does not remain in him (goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature) then he cannot produce fruit in that state and if he dies in that state, he is like a branch that is good for nothing and is cut off and thrown into the fire. The fruit is the characteristics and nature of God that is imputed to believers as we go from faith to faith throughout our walk with Christ. We are being transformed into his image.
"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Here we have one who is referred to as a pastor figure and overseer, whom the master has put in charge of the other servants. So, he is definitely a believer and in fact is a pastor. If he says, my Lord is taking a long time and goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, then if the Lord came back and found him in that state, he will give him his portion with the unbelievers and hypocrites. He would have lost his salvation because he would have broken his connection to God's grace by being unfaithful and would have been in that state when the Lord returned.
"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
In the example above, that fact that they are called brothers and sisters demonstrates that they are believers. If one should wander away from the truth, that is, back into willfully living according to the sinful nature, then they are accumulating sin and therefore on their way to death. But, if another believer warns them and they repent and resume faith, then a multitude of sins would be covered over and they would be saved from death.
To answer your question, in regards to who has the right interpretation, it would be a matter of the one who is contending for the truth and backing their claims up with scripture. And it should also be confirmed by other believers who have the same word and same Spirit. Unfortunately in these days, we have people who get their teachings off the internet from videos and blogs and are deceived by false teachers, instead of getting their teachings directly from the word of God. Many people are literally brain-washed and can't even logically interpret scripture. We have people who teach the exact opposite of what scripture says and you know who you are
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."
" I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
Branches figurative representing believers. If one who has received Christ does not remain in him (goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature) then he cannot produce fruit in that state and if he dies in that state, he is like a branch that is good for nothing and is cut off and thrown into the fire. The fruit is the characteristics and nature of God that is imputed to believers as we go from faith to faith throughout our walk with Christ. We are being transformed into his image.
"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Here we have one who is referred to as a pastor figure and overseer, whom the master has put in charge of the other servants. So, he is definitely a believer and in fact is a pastor. If he says, my Lord is taking a long time and goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, then if the Lord came back and found him in that state, he will give him his portion with the unbelievers and hypocrites. He would have lost his salvation because he would have broken his connection to God's grace by being unfaithful and would have been in that state when the Lord returned.
"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
In the example above, that fact that they are called brothers and sisters demonstrates that they are believers. If one should wander away from the truth, that is, back into willfully living according to the sinful nature, then they are accumulating sin and therefore on their way to death. But, if another believer warns them and they repent and resume faith, then a multitude of sins would be covered over and they would be saved from death.
To answer your question, in regards to who has the right interpretation, it would be a matter of the one who is contending for the truth and backing their claims up with scripture. And it should also be confirmed by other believers who have the same word and same Spirit. Unfortunately in these days, we have people who get their teachings off the internet from videos and blogs and are deceived by false teachers, instead of getting their teachings directly from the word of God. Many people are literally brain-washed and can't even logically interpret scripture. We have people who teach the exact opposite of what scripture says and you know who you are
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[TD]In the Bible there are no popes or priests to rule over the church. Jesus Christ is our High Priest (Heb. 3:1; 4:14-15; 5:5; 8:1; 9:11), and all true Christians make up a spiritual priesthood (I Pet. 2:5). Jesus Christ has sanctified all Christians who believe on Him (Heb. 10:10-11), so all priests today are unnecessary and unscriptural. Furthermore, the practice of calling a priest "father" is forbidden by Jesus Christ in Matthew 23:9. There is only ONE mediator between God and men (I Tim. 2:5).
The Catholic church teaches that Peter was the first Pope and the earthly head of the church, but the Bible never says this once. In fact, it was Peter himself who spoke against "being lords over God's heritage" in I Peter 5:3. Popes do not marry, although Peter did (Mat. 8:14; I Cor. 9:5). The Bible never speaks of Peter being in Rome, and it was Paul, not Peter, who wrote the epistle to the Romans. In the New Testament, Paul wrote 100 chapters with 2,325 verses, while Peter wrote only 8 chapters with 166 verses. In Peter's first epistle he stated that he was simply "an apostle of Jesus Christ," not a Pope (I Pet. 1:1). The Roman papacy and priesthood is just a huge fraud to keep members in bondage to a corrupt pagan church. http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/Catholic.html
Peter was NOT the rock Jesus builds His church on. There is only ONE
rock in Scripture: GOD. A multitude of Scriptures prove this.
Look ~ http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God,-The-Rock[/TD]
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[TD]In the Bible there are no popes or priests to rule over the church. Jesus Christ is our High Priest (Heb. 3:1; 4:14-15; 5:5; 8:1; 9:11), and all true Christians make up a spiritual priesthood (I Pet. 2:5). Jesus Christ has sanctified all Christians who believe on Him (Heb. 10:10-11), so all priests today are unnecessary and unscriptural. Furthermore, the practice of calling a priest "father" is forbidden by Jesus Christ in Matthew 23:9. There is only ONE mediator between God and men (I Tim. 2:5).
The Catholic church teaches that Peter was the first Pope and the earthly head of the church, but the Bible never says this once. In fact, it was Peter himself who spoke against "being lords over God's heritage" in I Peter 5:3. Popes do not marry, although Peter did (Mat. 8:14; I Cor. 9:5). The Bible never speaks of Peter being in Rome, and it was Paul, not Peter, who wrote the epistle to the Romans. In the New Testament, Paul wrote 100 chapters with 2,325 verses, while Peter wrote only 8 chapters with 166 verses. In Peter's first epistle he stated that he was simply "an apostle of Jesus Christ," not a Pope (I Pet. 1:1). The Roman papacy and priesthood is just a huge fraud to keep members in bondage to a corrupt pagan church. http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/Catholic.html
Peter was NOT the rock Jesus builds His church on. There is only ONE
rock in Scripture: GOD. A multitude of Scriptures prove this.
Look ~ http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God,-The-Rock[/TD]
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Here is a qutoe from St Ignatius who lived in the first century:
Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans
Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans
Agreed, but there is only one truth so some bodies wrong...
I've studied the mystery religions for quite a while and I can tell you that Catholicism is directly in line with them.
I've studied the mystery religions for quite a while and I can tell you that Catholicism is directly in line with them.
Dallasb78,
Jesus never intended for one person to be ruling over the entire church, for we are all on the same level as brothers and sisters. Regarding the hierarchy of the RCC, Jesus said the following:
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"Then the mother of James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to Jesus with her sons. She knelt respectfully to ask a favor. “What is your request?” he asked.
She replied, “In your Kingdom, please let my two sons sit in places of honor next to you, one on your right and the other on your left.”
But Jesus answered by saying to them, “You don’t know what you are asking! Are you able to drink from the bitter cup of suffering I am about to drink?”
“Oh yes,” they replied, “we are able!”
Jesus told them, “You will indeed drink from my bitter cup. But I have no right to say who will sit on my right or my left. My Father has prepared those places for the ones he has chosen.”
When the ten other disciples heard what James and John had asked, they were indignant. But Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must become your slave. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
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Based on the above, the RCC is set up exactly the opposite of how the church is to be set up.
If one of the future pope's required Catholics to receive the mark, should they follow him, because he is the pope and because of ex-cathedra?
Jesus never intended for one person to be ruling over the entire church, for we are all on the same level as brothers and sisters. Regarding the hierarchy of the RCC, Jesus said the following:
================================================
"Then the mother of James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to Jesus with her sons. She knelt respectfully to ask a favor. “What is your request?” he asked.
She replied, “In your Kingdom, please let my two sons sit in places of honor next to you, one on your right and the other on your left.”
But Jesus answered by saying to them, “You don’t know what you are asking! Are you able to drink from the bitter cup of suffering I am about to drink?”
“Oh yes,” they replied, “we are able!”
Jesus told them, “You will indeed drink from my bitter cup. But I have no right to say who will sit on my right or my left. My Father has prepared those places for the ones he has chosen.”
When the ten other disciples heard what James and John had asked, they were indignant. But Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must become your slave. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
=====================================================
Based on the above, the RCC is set up exactly the opposite of how the church is to be set up.
If one of the future pope's required Catholics to receive the mark, should they follow him, because he is the pope and because of ex-cathedra?
Its true all believers are priests and that Jesus is the High Priest.The ministry of Catholic priests is that of the presbyters mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 15:6, 23). The Bible says little about the duties of presbyters, but it does reveal they functioned in a priestly capacity. http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/where-in-the-new-testament-are-priests-mentioned
A
465 pages already. If you want to join in, here you go.
No, we can't! And that because we have a pagan system who is proclaiming to be the true church of Christ and upon whom the world recognizes as the Church. Though we are a minority, we need to continue to proclaim the truth and to expose false teachers and their false teachings. Have nothing to do with the fruitless acts of darkness, but rather expose them. (Eph.5:11)
Yeah, well he also said that there would be false teachers and false teachings, that doesn't mean that they are the true church. Roman Catholicism is anything and everything but the gospel.
Well, when one of the pope's begins to perform those miracles, signs and wonders for the purpose of giving authenticity to the first beast as being God or anything that is called God and is requiring all the devout to receive that mark, then hopefully you will understand who the RCC really is and the role she is going to play in these last days.
Well, when one of the pope's begins to perform those miracles, signs and wonders for the purpose of giving authenticity to the first beast as being God or anything that is called God and is requiring all the devout to receive that mark, then hopefully you will understand who the RCC really is and the role she is going to play in these last days.
Peter was called Petros and the Rock the church is built upon is Petra, making the meaning of the verse crystal clear, yes, but exactly NOT what Catholics teach, yeah, quite the contrary! Did you even look at the Scriptures I gave? They obviously mean absolutely nothing to you. Sad.
Jesus said, "I say also unto thee [to Peter], That thou art Peter [petros, masculine gender], and upon this Rock [petra, feminine gender] I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). The text indicates clearly that the church of Christ is built on petra and not on Petros.
Jesus said, "I say also unto thee [to Peter], That thou art Peter [petros, masculine gender], and upon this Rock [petra, feminine gender] I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). The text indicates clearly that the church of Christ is built on petra and not on Petros.
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