Charismatic - Losing Faith (Healing)

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Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
I've seen a lot more healed when I believed that sickness wasn't from God like Jesus' life shows me. But I never blame people who don't get healed, I actually blame my lack of faith. If healing doesn't come from my faith when Scripture says it will, why would I blame someone elses? I grow daily and discover the goodness of God more and more which builds MY faith in His Word. It is my life mission to be an encounter for God everywhere I go. Jesus didn't seek a ministry, He was one. Everywhere He went people encountered the Kingdom of God that stood in front of them. But He also served, loved, taught truth, and had compassion. These are not minor things. He said the Spirit was upon Him to preach good news to the poor and to bind up the brokenhearted these are soo important. But with compassion I also desire to see His Spirit set the captives free and for the blind to see. Not just with physical eyes, but also spiritual ones. These come part and parcel with the commission of the Lord who is ever with us. And now we get to follow Him as He makes disciples of nations through His Words and His Works.
 
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Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Thank you, I believe God uses her death for good even when I share that testimony.

What the hospital worker said to you was very powerful, what an amazing story. I am very sorry about your Mom though.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
I lost my mother to Cancer. And the hospital e worker told me what the enemy meant for evil God will use for good. And I believed her. I gave up my extremely worldly ways. And watched God turn it all for good. And I have been blessed to see that cursed disease leave people's bodies after prayer. Among many others. Truly what the enemy meant for my evil God has turned for His Good and I'm just getting started. Glory to His Name THE Author of Life!!!! The Knowledge of His glory WILL cover this Earth! And the Spirit of God is being poured out on ALL flesh. AND THIS Gospel Of THE Kingdom will be preached to the ends of the Earth. Bless you and may God continually work good news in your life that you will be an encounter of His Love. Eph 3:17-21.

I too lost my mother to a horrible disease. I prayed for her and stood in the gap for her as I had just led her to the Lord and felt she was too young in the Lord to stand for herself. ( only been led to the Lord 2 days prior to her death )

The doctor said that we may as well all go home as she is doing fine. I heard within me "Give her the choice if she wants to stay or go to be with Me". I went in her room and told her "Mom talk it over with the Lord and if you want to go - I will not pray for you to stay any longer."

My mother had a hard life and I'm sure she had an encounter with the love of the Lord. It would have been the first time she ever had really been loved. She chose to go to be with Him. I remember when I felt the Lord's unconditional love and I would have left to go be with Him too. His manifested love is heavy and very powerful and totally overwhelming and I know He visited with her.

Precious in the Lord's sight is the death of His saints.

The doctor said she was medically not in trouble. A 1/2 hour later we heard a "code" go off in the hospital. One in my family said it can't be mom because she is fine. I knew in my spirit she had chosen to be with Him. My heart was full of peace and love for the goodness of the Lord to her.

Sure enough the doctor came in and said she just left all of a sudden and he couldn't explain it. I knew what happened and every mother's day I ask the Lord to go wrap His arms around her and tell her I love her and that I will be with her soon enough - when I'm done here.

My lesson learned in all this was that we can hold people here for awhile by us standing in for them if they are young in the Lord but they have the ultimate say in what they want to do and our "faithing" to try to get them to do what we want - even if the Lord paid for their healing - this "forcing" for them to do what we desire for them is not right and in reality the Lord will not violate what they desire to do. They and their Lord will chose together what they want and in the end it is only the their business.
 

Fenner

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2013
7,507
111
0
Thank you, I believe God uses her death for good even when I share that testimony.

After reading what you wrote I do too. That was very inspiring. I watched my Dad die from cancer when I was in my teens. Unfortunately I didn't go the route you did I was very lost. It took the birth of my children to really help me realize the love of God. I don't know why he chose that time, it was probably the faith I had to find in him when I thought I'd never have children. It truly is amazing grace.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Paul was explaining the use of wine, if you read the context the idea was all things can be profitable. Today some people teach you can't even drink a glass of wine.

As far as thorn in my flesh, this is an OT comment and it always refers to rebellious people not sickness. And the REASON Paul had thus was because of his third heaven and radical miracle experiences. In order to have a Paul experience we need to be having these kinds of experiences also. And you have to change Jesus' words that whosoever believes in Me will do these works in order to come to this conclusion, which I am always apprehensive about doing.



But Jesus had come to reveal the Father working through Him so that some would believe. He healed instantly in most cases, except when He wished to teach something. NO ONE does that today,

The Apostles continued that work to begin with. But the miracles gradually tailed off.

But you only have to read on and you will find that slowly the miraculous dropped off even more. It was no longer so emphatic.

so Paul had to tell Timothy to heal his stomach by taking wine, and he was uncertain about Epaphroditus.

The early confidence had gone.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
I was so out of control at that time in my life. And things didn't get better right away, but God is so incredible His hand covered my heart. And soon after I had been delivered of drugs, drinking, smoking, etc. And I finally felt a peace and joy that I didn't even know existed. I am so thankful of the One who works everything out for good.

You know, I believe the gospel is actually sharing the good news of God in our daily lives. Jesus sent the disciples out to share the gospel before they knew He would die. What were they armed with? Holy Spirit and the good news of the King and His Kingdom. And as His Ambassadors they carried His Name (Authority) to bring His Kingdom to the world's needful circumstances also. You now carry a grace to release over people through the breakthroughs God has brought in your life.

Your story is a lifeline to those who struggle. You can say I've been there, I get it, and here's what Jesus did for me and I believe He can do the same for you too.

In this way, what the enemy meant for evil in our lives He will turn for good and for freedom.

After reading what you wrote I do too. That was very inspiring. I watched my Dad die from cancer when I was in my teens. Unfortunately I didn't go the route you did I was very lost. It took the birth of my children to really help me realize the love of God. I don't know why he chose that time, it was probably the faith I had to find in him when I thought I'd never have children. It truly is amazing grace.
 
P

popeye

Guest
I am simply quoting Scripture. You can argue with the Author.

I also believe people are new creations. Do you? Why do they struggle with sin then?

I also people are set free to love. Why do some struggle with anger, addictiins, etc. Did Jesus not pay for them? Did Jesus not pay for their freedom?

I believe God desires all to be saved. But not all are. Why? Did Jesus not pay the price for all?

I chose to believe Scripture over my experiences and my eyeballs.

I chose to believe I am a WHOSOEVER and that I am called to do His works and greater. You get to choose for you. I've seen many miracles, but also seen many losses. I've chosen to believe, you get to choose. I will no longer force my ways on anyone else, only those who desire spiritual gifts while pursuing love will I share with.

I am close to leaving this forum, but I've enjoyed chatting and discussing with you. In heaven we will get to discuss the greatness of our Lord.

You're definitely a seeker of God, one of the greatest I've had the privilege to meet here. May the grace you carry increase that you might draw more into the knowledge of Christ. And tge faith we live by daily.

QUOTE=UnderGrace;2762189]
And what if it does not? What if you die instead?

This is a quite a nice little schema that has been built by some preachers on the world stage, however, I have seen many faithful servants with great faith in the Lord die from disease and injury.

Why is there this need to deny reality it does not diminish God and His love you know? (Rhetorical question)


[/QUOTE]

Cee, I gave you a rep, God bless you
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Cee

Yes of course we are new creations in God's eyes and we do have victory over sin sometimes we loose sight of that. I just do not put sin and healing together like you do nor do I see that scripture does either, I do not hold that against you.:)

Why would you leave? Everyone has something they bring to the discussion.

I am am cautious about these ideas on healing/tongues/signs and wonders and how they are interpreted from a scriptural point of view. I have seen God heal I just do not believe God heals on demand and it makes me sad when this is taught because it causes damage to faith and belief.

Having said that, I absolutely agree with you that God is Love, a complete Love, a Love we can never understand in this temporal world.

The love He pours into us, it is what releases us from sins grip. That is your message too Cee and you and I and most probably everyone on this discussion board would agree on this. :eek:






I am simply quoting Scripture. You can argue with the Author.

I also believe people are new creations. Do you? Why do they struggle with sin then?

I also people are set free to love. Why do some struggle with anger, addictiins, etc. Did Jesus not pay for them? Did Jesus not pay for their freedom?

I believe God desires all to be saved. But not all are. Why? Did Jesus not pay the price for all?

I chose to believe Scripture over my experiences and my eyeballs.

I chose to believe I am a WHOSOEVER and that I am called to do His works and greater. You get to choose for you. I've seen many miracles, but also seen many losses. I've chosen to believe, you get to choose. I will no longer force my ways on anyone else, only those who desire spiritual gifts while pursuing love will I share with.

I am close to leaving this forum, but I've enjoyed chatting and discussing with you. In heaven we will get to discuss the greatness of our Lord.

You're definitely a seeker of God, one of the greatest I've had the privilege to meet here. May the grace you carry increase that you might draw more into the knowledge of Christ. And tge faith we live by daily.

QUOTE=UnderGrace;2762189]
And what if it does not? What if you die instead?

This is a quite a nice little schema that has been built by some preachers on the world stage, however, I have seen many faithful servants with great faith in the Lord die from disease and injury.

Why is there this need to deny reality it does not diminish God and His love you know? (Rhetorical question)


[/QUOTE]
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Well, may I suggest that you read Angela53510 post #243 on this thread.

It has been my experience that it is always best to examine scripture from all points of view even those we do not agree with.
Just a thought.:)

If Paul's thorn in the flesh was not sickness I can accept that and I so see what you are saying with regards to keeping him humble since sickness does not ensure humility.

However, please let us reason together, how can you teach that Jesus bore our sickness on the cross and we can expect to not be sick but die of old age only?

Can you not see that by teaching this, you teach that sickness needs atonement.....therebye adding to the guilt and shame of the believer who is sick and remains unhealed.

We know that all that call upon the name of the Lord are saved, then it should surely follow the same for healing from disease but it does not so there is a problem with this interpretation of scripture.


Sickness does not diminish my standing in Christ does it?

I tell these things with love brother... because you are a great witness for God by your testimony but I have concerns with this teaching.





I am simply quoting Scripture. You can argue with the Author.

I also believe people are new creations. Do you? Why do they struggle with sin then?

I also people are set free to love. Why do some struggle with anger, addictiins, etc. Did Jesus not pay for them? Did Jesus not pay for their freedom?

I believe God desires all to be saved. But not all are. Why? Did Jesus not pay the price for all?

I chose to believe Scripture over my experiences and my eyeballs.

I chose to believe I am a WHOSOEVER and that I am called to do His works and greater. You get to choose for you. I've seen many miracles, but also seen many losses. I've chosen to believe, you get to choose. I will no longer force my ways on anyone else, only those who desire spiritual gifts while pursuing love will I share with.

I am close to leaving this forum, but I've enjoyed chatting and discussing with you. In heaven we will get to discuss the greatness of our Lord.

You're definitely a seeker of God, one of the greatest I've had the privilege to meet here. May the grace you carry increase that you might draw more into the knowledge of Christ. And tge faith we live by daily.

QUOTE=UnderGrace;2762189]
And what if it does not? What if you die instead?

This is a quite a nice little schema that has been built by some preachers on the world stage, however, I have seen many faithful servants with great faith in the Lord die from disease and injury.

Why is there this need to deny reality it does not diminish God and His love you know? (Rhetorical question)


[/QUOTE]
 
R

RobbyEarl

Guest
By His stripes we were healed. Never let go of that promise. Amen
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Why would God save on demand?
Was sickness ever in God's original plan? Not even death was. He truly is life.
And death is not His ally or His friend, it is His enemy.
And thank God it is the last enemy to go!
Of course He still works all these things for good! But not His plan.
Why would Jesus heal all when He walked on the Earth, but not heal today when He walks with us?
Jesus never once said God put sickness on a person. Not once. Sickness entered because of sin.

In many Scriptures we see sickness and sin paired.

Here's one:

2Bless the Lord, O my soul,
and forget not all his benefits,
3who forgives all your iniquity,
who heals all your diseases,

4who redeems your life from the pit,
who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy,

The idea I am presenting is this:

The same reason we don't see people's souls set free even though Jesus paid for it, is the same reason we don't see people's bodies set free even though Jesus paid for it.

Do we have to convince God to be our savior? Or do we simply believe? Of course, we don't have any "experiences" to mess up our belief with this. We can't see what a new creation looks like with our natural eyes or else we might try to have more faith in our eyes instead of trusting God.

I have spent years of my life studying and understanding healing. I have started healing rooms. I have encounters with God where He asked me why do I want His power? And I said because the world needs to know you are good, you are real, and you are still alive today. I have seen people weep when they experience Him. When people say, whoa He really is ALIVE, we have lost this. And it saddens me. We have forgotten the victorious Christ who dwells with us daily.

I am so blessed because I used to be so afflicted with fear. Depression. Panic. Anxiety. I used to be soo attacked, I even spent time with doctors because of these issues. But it was not a physical method that saved me, but it was a spiritual understanding. And that put me on the path of understanding the schemes of the devil. I can tell you soo many stories of how I jumped out of moving cars because of panic and anxiety, or I thought I was in hell because God was angry with me because I wasn't perfect. But this wasn't God, no, this was a spirit that wanted to torment me every day. And it wasn't until I was able to discern the enemy that I was able to call upon My Lord and Savior to set me free.

I have seen addictions vanish. Things people go for years to be set free of. Because they have been led the belief that if it's to be, it's up to me! I have seen sicknesses go! And I have seen sicknesses stay. I have prayed over people for over an hour non stop until their pain went from 9 to 8.5, but oh how I celebrated when I saw it move even an inch. And then in this spirit of faith rose up and I say it go down to a 0.

We must know the enemy. We must not be foolish of his schemes. It is the enemy who steals, kills, and destroys. Where is the victorious church that Jesus called us to be? We have broken marriages, hurting children, we have so many sicknesses and deaths, and what is the answer? It must be the Will of God! NO! It is the Will of God for us to be set free!

There is no condemnation to those who struggle with these things! I myself have struggled with an illness that I pray against often, and I have seen breakthrough, but not complete freedom. But does that mean the cross of Christ was not sufficient to bear my sickness? Definitely not! It means that I am growing in receiving.

Just as the addictions people struggle with, they don't understand they are a new creation, so they seek our intimacy with substances instead of The Substance. But once they get this, wow, they are gloriously set free. Because yes our Lord paid for their freedom as well.

Of course, we will still be persecuted, even just sharing some of my stories, or believing for people to be well, I get attacked. Of course I am not killed, but still it is because of love that we get attacked.

Why do we not rejoice??? Why are we not excited to celebrate that God paid for our sicknesses? I struggle with a sickness, but I still celebrate His goodness and my freedom. And by God when I celebrate I see breakthrough!

What would happen if the Church rose up and truly did the things Jesus did and even greater? Well then I believe many would be saved, set free, and be united with Christ. And He would receive everything He paid for. What would happen if we believed that the same Lord that walked on the Earth walked with us? What would happen if atheists, would couldn't believe for the words actually believed for the works? Jesus Himself pointed to His works! But today it is considered evil?? The Greatest Speaker, Teacher, Pastor, of ALL time walked the Earth, and He still needed to show miracles! And He still pointed to those who were healed to validate HIS message. And today we think we don't need what He did? Because we have a bigger book? I'm sorry, bless you, but I can not invalidate the call of Christ to make disciples of nations or to do the works He did and greater, even if I don't see it completely with my own eyes, I believe one day I will. And one day the world will know God is good, real, and alive today. And the enemy has been unmasked.

As far as why I will leave soon, it is because I feel the Spirit telling me my time here is coming to a close, I really only feel strong affinity to certain people here that I feel specifically called to share with. You are one of them :) But I believe He has planted seeds where He will and one day those seeds will spring up. And I am excited for that day! Not that you or anyone else would believe me, but the reality of God would grow for all of us!


Cee

Yes of course we are new creations in God's eyes and we do have victory over sin sometimes we loose sight of that. I just do not put sin and healing together like you do nor do I see that scripture does either, I do not hold that against you.:)

Why would you leave? Everyone has something they bring to the discussion.

I am am cautious about these ideas on healing/tongues/signs and wonders and how they are interpreted from a scriptural point of view. I have seen God heal I just do not believe God heals on demand and it makes me sad when this is taught because it causes damage to faith and belief.

Having said that, I absolutely agree with you that God is Love, a complete Love, a Love we can never understand in this temporal world.

The love He pours into us, it is what releases us from sins grip. That is your message too Cee and you and I and most probably everyone on this discussion board would agree on this. :eek:

[/QUOTE]
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Cee, I gave you a rep, God bless you[/QUOTE]


Bless you too my friend! Thank you :)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
You have strong faith Cee and it is not my intention or in my heart to tear you down I hope you know that.

God can deliver us from all things and I put no limits on His wisdom and Love, perhaps I proceed with a little more caution than you which is fair enough.

Sometimes we need a break from CC, I still hope you do not go, but then God knows best!!



Why would God save on demand?
Was sickness ever in God's original plan? Not even death was. He truly is life.
And death is not His ally or His friend, it is His enemy.
And thank God it is the last enemy to go!
Of course He still works all these things for good! But not His plan.
Why would Jesus heal all when He walked on the Earth, but not heal today when He walks with us?
Jesus never once said God put sickness on a person. Not once. Sickness entered because of sin.

In many Scriptures we see sickness and sin paired.

Here's one:

2Bless the Lord, O my soul,
and forget not all his benefits,
3who forgives all your iniquity,
who heals all your diseases,

4who redeems your life from the pit,
who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy,

The idea I am presenting is this:

The same reason we don't see people's souls set free even though Jesus paid for it, is the same reason we don't see people's bodies set free even though Jesus paid for it.

Do we have to convince God to be our savior? Or do we simply believe? Of course, we don't have any "experiences" to mess up our belief with this. We can't see what a new creation looks like with our natural eyes or else we might try to have more faith in our eyes instead of trusting God.

I have spent years of my life studying and understanding healing. I have started healing rooms. I have encounters with God where He asked me why do I want His power? And I said because the world needs to know you are good, you are real, and you are still alive today. I have seen people weep when they experience Him. When people say, whoa He really is ALIVE, we have lost this. And it saddens me. We have forgotten the victorious Christ who dwells with us daily.

I am so blessed because I used to be so afflicted with fear. Depression. Panic. Anxiety. I used to be soo attacked, I even spent time with doctors because of these issues. But it was not a physical method that saved me, but it was a spiritual understanding. And that put me on the path of understanding the schemes of the devil. I can tell you soo many stories of how I jumped out of moving cars because of panic and anxiety, or I thought I was in hell because God was angry with me because I wasn't perfect. But this wasn't God, no, this was a spirit that wanted to torment me every day. And it wasn't until I was able to discern the enemy that I was able to call upon My Lord and Savior to set me free.

I have seen addictions vanish. Things people go for years to be set free of. Because they have been led the belief that if it's to be, it's up to me! I have seen sicknesses go! And I have seen sicknesses stay. I have prayed over people for over an hour non stop until their pain went from 9 to 8.5, but oh how I celebrated when I saw it move even an inch. And then in this spirit of faith rose up and I say it go down to a 0.

We must know the enemy. We must not be foolish of his schemes. It is the enemy who steals, kills, and destroys. Where is the victorious church that Jesus called us to be? We have broken marriages, hurting children, we have so many sicknesses and deaths, and what is the answer? It must be the Will of God! NO! It is the Will of God for us to be set free!

There is no condemnation to those who struggle with these things! I myself have struggled with an illness that I pray against often, and I have seen breakthrough, but not complete freedom. But does that mean the cross of Christ was not sufficient to bear my sickness? Definitely not! It means that I am growing in receiving.

Just as the addictions people struggle with, they don't understand they are a new creation, so they seek our intimacy with substances instead of The Substance. But once they get this, wow, they are gloriously set free. Because yes our Lord paid for their freedom as well.

Of course, we will still be persecuted, even just sharing some of my stories, or believing for people to be well, I get attacked. Of course I am not killed, but still it is because of love that we get attacked.

Why do we not rejoice??? Why are we not excited to celebrate that God paid for our sicknesses? I struggle with a sickness, but I still celebrate His goodness and my freedom. And by God when I celebrate I see breakthrough!

What would happen if the Church rose up and truly did the things Jesus did and even greater? Well then I believe many would be saved, set free, and be united with Christ. And He would receive everything He paid for. What would happen if we believed that the same Lord that walked on the Earth walked with us? What would happen if atheists, would couldn't believe for the words actually believed for the works? Jesus Himself pointed to His works! But today it is considered evil?? The Greatest Speaker, Teacher, Pastor, of ALL time walked the Earth, and He still needed to show miracles! And He still pointed to those who were healed to validate HIS message. And today we think we don't need what He did? Because we have a bigger book? I'm sorry, bless you, but I can not invalidate the call of Christ to make disciples of nations or to do the works He did and greater, even if I don't see it completely with my own eyes, I believe one day I will. And one day the world will know God is good, real, and alive today. And the enemy has been unmasked.

As far as why I will leave soon, it is because I feel the Spirit telling me my time here is coming to a close, I really only feel strong affinity to certain people here that I feel specifically called to share with. You are one of them :) But I believe He has planted seeds where He will and one day those seeds will spring up. And I am excited for that day! Not that you or anyone else would believe me, but the reality of God would grow for all of us!
[/QUOTE]
 
R

RobbyEarl

Guest
There is a little thing called faith and just because you say a little prayer and it don't happen in ten seconds does not mean that God is not true. He is not a microwave. He test our faith and to many times people give up. Keep knocking, keep praying, keep claiming and after doing all to stand, stand. He is not on our time, but always in time, thats the kind of God that i serve and His name is Jesus, Praise to His name forever and ever. It will come, just hold on and don't give up. Amen
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
I don't teach sick people that there is something wrong with them being sick.

Scripture itself says, IF you be sick, have someone pray for you. It actually means the enemy is probably trying to take them out. As far as different POV, yes I have read it, and yes I read Angela's post. I love Angela's posts! :)

But when we start using words like "oh it was a metaphor" that wasn't what "they really meant". I can already see where things are going. And unless you think my interpretations are glib, I actually pray for Holy Spirit to guide me. I don't just take some person's commentary, just as I assume you wouldn't take mine! Without deep insight from the Spirit of Christ Himself.

Meanwhile back to your question, I have prayed for people who didn't believe God would heal them, and they were healed. Do I focus on those who are not set free or those who are? How many are saved when we don't share the gospel? How many are healed when we don't pray for the sick as commanded?

It is a sad, sad, sad, thing to me when people are not set free of sickness. Just as it is a sad thing to me, when people are ensnared to sin, no matter the form, but I will always tell people they are set free of sin to love even if it offends MANY people.

As far as Paul, I believe that it was a messenger sent to buffet him, more than likely it was a spirit that was causing the Jews to beat him continually. Not sickness.

For me it's not an easy doctrine to hold, it would be sooo much easier if I simply said God doesn't heal today, then I would no longer have any responsibility to pray for them so that they might be well. It would be sooo much easier for me also if I said we will always sin, then people would not have a problem with my teaching that they are new creations and set free of sin. It would probably be easier for me, if I was a universalist, because then I would be able to let people find God on their own.

But alas, my name is Christopher, in the very core of my name it says "Christ Bearer". So He is my standard and my example. I believe Scripture that says it is not I who live, but Him. And trust me, I have a LOT to learn still. But as I was praying to God about what it looked like to disciple others, He made it so simple to me. Christ within. Teach people to walk like Christ did. He only did what the Father did. He lived in continual relationship with Holy Spirit. He met people's needs with heaven's resources. And He disciple'd world changers. He had compassion on the poor. He loved His enemies. And lived with a joy set before Him. In the OT, we have plenty of stories about other men, but in the NT we have only 4 stories about one Man. He is our example. And He has even give us His Spirit that we might walk like He walk. So when He says those who believe in Me will walk like I do, I believe Him and that becomes my standard. But I have soooo much further to go. But I am overwhelmed by His goodness and His path is one I am excited to be on. Even if it results in offending some people.

Bless you sister :)
Thank you for caring, I also care about you. I hope you know that.

Well, may I suggest that you read Angela53510 post #243 on this thread.

It has been my experience that it is always best to examine scripture from all points of view even those we do not agree with.
Just a thought.:)

If Paul's thorn in the flesh was not sickness I can accept that and I so see what you are saying with regards to keeping him humble since sickness does not ensure humility.

However, please let us reason together, how can you teach that Jesus bore our sickness on the cross and we can expect to not be sick but die of old age only?

Can you not see that by teaching this, you teach that sickness needs atonement.....therebye adding to the guilt and shame of the believer who is sick and remains unhealed.

We know that all that call upon the name of the Lord are saved, then it should surely follow the same for healing from disease but it does not so there is a problem with this interpretation of scripture.


Sickness does not diminish my standing in Christ does it?

I tell these things with love brother... because you are a great witness for God by your testimony but I have concerns with this teaching.

[/QUOTE]
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Amen and Amen!

In the OT, we have plenty of stories about other men, but in the NT we have only 4 stories about one Man.
I love this..... beautifully said!!





I don't teach sick people that there is something wrong with them being sick.

Scripture itself says, IF you be sick, have someone pray for you. It actually means the enemy is probably trying to take them out. As far as different POV, yes I have read it, and yes I read Angela's post. I love Angela's posts! :)

But when we start using words like "oh it was a metaphor" that wasn't what "they really meant". I can already see where things are going. And unless you think my interpretations are glib, I actually pray for Holy Spirit to guide me. I don't just take some person's commentary, just as I assume you wouldn't take mine! Without deep insight from the Spirit of Christ Himself.

Meanwhile back to your question, I have prayed for people who didn't believe God would heal them, and they were healed. Do I focus on those who are not set free or those who are? How many are saved when we don't share the gospel? How many are healed when we don't pray for the sick as commanded?

It is a sad, sad, sad, thing to me when people are not set free of sickness. Just as it is a sad thing to me, when people are ensnared to sin, no matter the form, but I will always tell people they are set free of sin to love even if it offends MANY people.

As far as Paul, I believe that it was a messenger sent to buffet him, more than likely it was a spirit that was causing the Jews to beat him continually. Not sickness.

For me it's not an easy doctrine to hold, it would be sooo much easier if I simply said God doesn't heal today, then I would no longer have any responsibility to pray for them so that they might be well. It would be sooo much easier for me also if I said we will always sin, then people would not have a problem with my teaching that they are new creations and set free of sin. It would probably be easier for me, if I was a universalist, because then I would be able to let people find God on their own.

But alas, my name is Christopher, in the very core of my name it says "Christ Bearer". So He is my standard and my example. I believe Scripture that says it is not I who live, but Him. And trust me, I have a LOT to learn still. But as I was praying to God about what it looked like to disciple others, He made it so simple to me. Christ within. Teach people to walk like Christ did. He only did what the Father did. He lived in continual relationship with Holy Spirit. He met people's needs with heaven's resources. And He disciple'd world changers. He had compassion on the poor. He loved His enemies. And lived with a joy set before Him. In the OT, we have plenty of stories about other men, but in the NT we have only 4 stories about one Man. He is our example. And He has even give us His Spirit that we might walk like He walk. So when He says those who believe in Me will walk like I do, I believe Him and that becomes my standard. But I have soooo much further to go. But I am overwhelmed by His goodness and His path is one I am excited to be on. Even if it results in offending some people.

Bless you sister :)
Thank you for caring, I also care about you. I hope you know that.
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Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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He means to say that your issue with healing can be equated to salvation. Salvation is available to all, but all do not receive it. VVhy? Belief. Now tie that into healing.
What are you saying here? Are you saying that healing is available to ALL if you just believe enough? That is a very dangerous teaching if it is in fact what you're saying. That means if I am not healed then it's my fault for not believing enough, and that is 100% false. If that is what you meant I call it out for being dead wrong, if it's not what you meant then please clarify.
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
I Just walked through a health crisis. I woke up a few months ago with what I thought was a stiff neck, went to use the rest room and then found myself on the floor and had went into shock immediately with one of the most intense pains in my life.

4 hours later Chiropractor[also born gain and spirit filled] confirmed I had herniated the C6 disk in my neck. The disk had also rotated 180 degrees and wrapped the nerves and muscles on the left side of my shoulder, arm, hand and neck around itself. I could only place my left hand on my head to relieve the intense pain, that reaction is called the Bakody sign.

The MRI justified immediate and necessary neck surgery, but we could not get peace from the Lord on that option and instead trusted him. Our fellow christian brother chiropractor said something powerful, he said we will both stand on the Word for your healing and I will due my part as your Dr. and you do your part by trusting in the Lord with all your heart.

My pastor and elders all laid hands on me and prayed the prayer of healing, which I received. My healing was not instant and in fact I am still not 100%, but getting stronger every day. At around the 5th week, the Bakody sign stopped, but I could not use my left hand or arm and the pain was causing severe fatigue.

At around the 7th week I could not use my left arm and hand very, it had severe numbness running through it. The pain was the worst I had experienced with this wound. I remember laying in bed , meditating and confessing on all the healing scriptures and worshiping God and counting the trial all joy. God spoke to me in my Spirit and told me that my faith was evident and it pleased him, but I did not have to continually remind him of his word.

He asked me do you believe that my Spirit can heal you of your wounds & restore your health. I said YES Lord, He said Son, I want to remind you that faith is not reminding me of my word,always confessing my word, faith is simply resting in the fact I will do what I say I will....Weeping joyfully I said, Father....I now rest in you and your word....That very second, I encountered a peace I had not encountered ever in this type of situation, a Peace that kept sweeping over my body in warm waves.It continued, almost like it was rocking me to sleep. Before this happened it was difficult for me to sleep at all and what little I got was interrupted because my body was warring so badly with itself. I remember drifting to sleep as the peace kept waving
over me and it was about 10am. My wife woke me up at noon the next day and said I never moved once and she was crying tears of Joy. Without thinking my left arm and hand were working and the numbness was not as bad. I got to my doctor and while he was checking me out he looked at me with tears in his eyes and big smile and said, you had a visitor last night huh?

My left arm and hand were radically working and the disk was not protruding from the back of my neck and was in place. Another xray showed the herniation was going down.

I started work again last week, after being out of work for several months. I had STD insurance, which paid a lot lower than my salary, but every financial need was met. We never named and claimed anything for my health or our finances, we simply entered into rest based on belief.

Faith is not loud and proud, naming and claiming, confessing a blessing.

Faith is resting in the belief that what is unseen is already at work on your behalf. It is resting in the fact that Jesus paid it all.

I was not radically instantly healed, I walked through a fiery trial and when you count it all joy, you begin to understand what a blessing it is that God allowed you to be like Job. To be considered worthy of all that Satan thinks he can throw at you, while the Father already knows that your faith will see you through.

I say this to those here on his chat board that claim God does not use sickness, injury, or physical trauma to refine your character:

You cannot truly move in compassion to help correct a broken condition a person faces in a health crisis, unless you have been there and done it.

God uses doctors, medicine and many other practical things as gifts of healing, he also can and will heal instantly[I have witnessed it on others]

The greatest Lesson I learned was that most times with a health crisis, God is using it to refine your character or prove to Satan that though he slay me I will trust him and I will not be shaken or moved by the physical.....because my trust is based on nothing less than Jesus Christ and his righteousness!

Somebody on this thread asked me about this topic and I hope this helped you... I give it all back to the Father.

this is a wonderful testimony to both the healing power of our God and even more, to the faith which is faith and not the faith in faith nonsense that is spouted and touted

Abraham believed God for the impossible and his faith was accounted to him as righteousness

that is the faith that is accounted to us as righteousness

I too have been sideswiped and bushwhacked by Christians pounding on me for my 'lack' of faith. these same people, are off in the bushes somewhere, way off the track, while I plod on and trust God that He can and does keep me

I have been mocked by people I loved and they have never apologized for what they did...does not matter that I was 100% on track and they were utterly wrong.

and that is one of the main problems I have with this 'movement'...all the prophecies and so called miracles for the sake of supposedly feeling God...it's deception

when the prophecies do not come true, they just move on to another one

when someone is not healed, it's the person's fault

when someone tries to correct the lunacy, they are of the devil and squashing the Holy Spirit

faith, is not about how you feel

faith is trusting, day after day, IN God...not what He is going to do...because what if, what if, you find yourself all alone with all the people you loved and whom you thought loved you, lying about you, cutting you off and calling you demonic, while still calling themselves Christian and what if years later they have all torn apart lives and your life is getting stronger and better in the Lord and you look at the carnage and hurt over it, but still no one will admit what they did...what if your entire life and everything you believed in all goes to hell in a handbasket and you realize you had faith in people instead of God and He let everyone's heart have their way and He is the most grieved of all and when you turn to Him, you know it was unavoidable because you ever really only wanted the truth

when I look at the mess of the church and what passes for prophecy and so called healing and the miracles that are often demonic because no one seems to realize there is no growth and everyone just wants another miracle or another sign and its all about how good you feel, I pray for mercy and I pray for discernment and I pray for light..God's light on my path and that He keep me...because this world is on fire and the church is wearing flammable clothing

I have read the other posts where people are expressing their hearts...I have no problem with those...it is the insistence that the Bible says something that is does NOT say that destroys lives IMO, that I reject and I pray people wake up
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Why would God save on demand?
God does not save on demand. This is a completely wrong concept of what God does in salvation. Man does not incorporate God into his life. Man cries out for the mercy of God when he sees his lost estate and hopeless situation.
In many Scriptures we see sickness and sin paired.

Here's one:

2Bless the Lord, O my soul,
and forget not all his benefits,
3who forgives all your iniquity,
who heals all your diseases,

4who redeems your life from the pit,
who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy,
Good thing because one is tangible the other is not. Sin can be different things to different people but the consequence if sin through Adam is visible. ie. sin and death.
The idea I am presenting is this:

The same reason we don't see people's souls set free even though Jesus paid for it, is the same reason we don't see people's bodies set free even though Jesus paid for it.

Do we have to convince God to be our savior? Or do we simply believe? Of course, we don't have any "experiences" to mess up our belief with this. We can't see what a new creation looks like with our natural eyes or else we might try to have more faith in our eyes instead of trusting God.
New age mysticism and false religion.

As far as why I will leave soon, it is because I feel the Spirit telling me my time here is coming to a close, I really only feel strong affinity to certain people here that I feel specifically called to share with. You are one of them :) But I believe He has planted seeds where He will and one day those seeds will spring up. And I am excited for that day! Not that you or anyone else would believe me, but the reality of God would grow for all of us!
Too much exposure is never good for you.

Ps 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
E

eph610

Guest
Have you not determined already that the adversity you face is experienced only because you expect it? VVhat Job feared came upon him, right? VVe have to guard our beliefs and make sure they are in line with God's word. Stand upon the truth and His providence, in all areas.
Those that claim they have had no adversity or expect adversity in their walk with the Lord or are not sober minded or alert about their enemy, the devil are usually talking from the stomach of the Lion.

The whole WOF theology falls flat in all of the Gospel, not just the cherry picked parts, you guys like to condemn others with.
Jesus suffered greatly because he was expecting the adversity he was baptized with.

Paul expected and was even warned by a Prophet of the adversity he face, but he did not prance around and imagine the facts away, he faced the adversity head on.

You all scream that God's will is not that anyone be sick or suffer for any reasons, but that contradicts Acts 9.15-16. You have castrated God's sovereignty claiming you know his will better than he does. His thoughts are not your thoughts. You place faith into faith and find no rest in the finished work Of Jesus Christ.God received more glory from Paul's sufferings for the gospel, than he ever did from Paul being untouched.

The very sad part of the movement is that you all are so busy convincing each other you are so blessed and whole, that it has bred condemnation in the inner circles and you cannot let your guard down and be honest about your physical conditions and finances, when the real test hits. I have watched with great sorrow, many that scream this deception fall like a dead tree with no real roots, when the first breeze of a storm hits. They just cannot believe that it happened to them and the end result is it has deceived millions and ship wrecked them forever. The Blood on the hands of your supposed beloved great leaders will be exposed one day.

For the record, you do know that Ken "dad" Hagin died at from a massive heart attack, caused by a congestive heart disease he hid publicly and was privately getting treatment for decades.Yet in his books, he suggested he never got a cold.

One day you will grow out of this cult you are trapped in. It never ceases to amaze me that those in the WOF movement usually get blindsided by the very things they state they are immune from.

Pastor Rod Parsley just went through such an ordeal and the throat cancer trial changed him back to where he was 20 years ago, before he let the prosperity and WOF message corrupt him.

It must be nice to work for a kingdom that only looks at the good and blessed, but for the rest of us, we know by the Word we should expect and defeat adversity head on and overcome just like Jesus did.

When you come to full age and stop passing out powder milk shakes, I will be here to help you.