CHRIST THE CHOSEN ONE, THE ELECT OF THE FATHER

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Jan 14, 2021
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You only have to look across evangelicalism today and see the WIDELY and VARIOUSLY held views of the Bible and KNOW that there is no unity at all.
There is no union between Christians and nonChristians but there is a great amount of unity between Christians and other Christians. I think part of the problem is recognizing the fact that these divisions that are being attributed to Christianity are actually the result of the clash between two different religions.

Dispensationalists are Christian in the same sense that Moslems or Mormons are Christian. Both Moslems and Mormons hold the New Testament as relevant to their respective canons, but their surrounding scriptures change the meanings and force contradictions with the New Testament. For Mormons, they change certain intended meanings of scripture to suit their ideology, including changing the established context of "The Word was God" into "The Word is a god". Moslems accept scripture as a deuterocanon but claim that it has been corrupted (the claim for imperfection addresses contradictions in that case). In Moslem scripture, Jesus talks to God the Father and states that he never told the people to worship him as God. Dispensationalists as well reject the clear and straightforward meaning of different passages from Gal 3, Rom 9, and other scattered verses to suit a hybrid system between modern Talmudic Judaism and a subservient goyim slave race of authorized servants (which are required to fulfil the Talmudic version of the day of the Lord). Dispensationalism is as different to Christianity as Islam is to Christianity. So yes, if you believe in Dispensationalism, you are part of a different religion, with a different body of hermenuetics than what is possible within Christianity.

The objection that "I believe that Jesus is the Messiah! I read the NT in an edifying way" is a statement that is true for Moslems as well. Being a Christian is more than just accepting Jesus as the Messiah and reading from the NT. There is a foundational difference between these different groups.

If a Talmudic Jew came up to a Christian and stated, "My people are the rightful owners of this land, because God said so, and denying that is to call God a liar!" From their perspective, they are being honest to their sincerely held beliefs. And that's fine, because they are of a different religion and Christians shouldn't feel obligated to necessarily hold them up to a high standard. It's no different than an atheist rejecting God, etc. They'll come around eventually if they are meant to. But denying the Talmudic interpretations of the land promises does not mean that Christians would be calling God a liar. Christians are following the truth of the Holy Bible when it states that Christ is the seed of the promises and that those of the flesh are not children of God. Dispensationalism resonates more with Talmudic Judaism on this topic and from that is a Talmudic religion in that sense, taking many points, philosophies, and interpretations from a perspective in line with Talmudic Judaism. It's not that your claims would necessarily be inconsistent with the source material you hold in authority, it's just that those materials differ from the established canon of Christianity. This is no different than the added books from Joseph Smith for LDS or the Qur'an and Haddith for Islam. Dispensationalism follows some oral authorities that won't necessarily appear in a text but nonetheless change the hermenuetic.

It would be a mistake to call someone else insincere simply because they follow a different religion with a different established ethos. But when two religions are very similar it isn't always readily apparent that they are different religions, and from that it can create the appearance of division and insincerity when none of that in fact exists. It's not that one side is being "stupid", it's just that two completely different sets of belief come from two different sets of foundational scriptures, philosophies, etc. Such is the case when it comes down to Christianity and Dispensationalism.

Your particular brand of Dispensationalism beliefs are unusual because you reject the standard Dispensationalist position that hypergrace would exist for all Talmudic Jews. Dispensationalists generally interpret Rom 11 to mean that all Talmudic Jews would be saved. Dispensationalism espouses the belief that all nonJews are second-class citizens. The trend I have seen in many cases is that many Dispensationalists themselves will have some kind of Talmudic Jewish ancestry that in the back of their mind will make them feel comfortable by seeing themselves as some kind of upper-second-class or lower-first-class. Especially if they are married-in and/or have children with an established ancestry. It's the same kind of mentality as a poor person believing that they aren't really poor, just temporarily embarassed millionnaires. The pyschological appeal makes sense in a lot of cases, especially if a person had Talmudic Jewish relatives or loved ones that they care about. To even considered the idea that a loved one that has passed away could have missed the opportunity for salvation is unbearable. So if someone had a deceased Talmudic Jewish grandmother that they loved, having someone tell them that none come to the Father except through Christ would probably feel evisceral like a knife in the gut. It would be much more psychologically comfortable to invest in the idea that salvation was theirs by birthright rather than accept that God ultimately has the choice on who to show mercy to.

There's a lot of angst that can come from this topic. Sometimes challenging people's false beliefs will make them react as though you've slapped their newborn baby in the face.

Emotions can cloud sound judgement. Emotions can distract from the ability to think with sober logical thought. If someone's reaction is extreme to the point that they act like you've slapped their newborn baby, they very likely have a deeply rooted emotional investment.

If someone doesn't have those visceral emotional reactions, there is a better chance at appealing to their sense of reasoning. And for those Dispensationalists that aren't ruled by emotion (if there are any) these have the chance of having a reasonable conversation. If you want to have a reasonable conversation between Dispensationalists and Christians, the first place to start needs to be an evaluation of the differences in ethos. That is, the differences in the foundations of the hermeneutics. If you can't acknowledge that Christians and Dispensationalists use terms differently, no conversation will be fruitful. These are two different religions and that needs to be acknowledged first in order to bridge that language barrier. You can choose not to communicate, but the offer is open to any Dispensationalist that is willing to speak patiently with logic.

Even between Talmudic Jews and Christians, maybe by the end of the day there is no agreement, but it is still possible to have a mutual understanding in respectful disagreement. The same is true for Dispensationalists and Christians.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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the "all Israel", that you have printed in bold, dark letters, is Jacob, as Israel, which is spiritual Israel, and not all of the nation of Israel (Rom 9:6). Jacob/Israel includes people from every nation, kindred and tongue.
I don't believe that every genetic Jew will be saved. Only those who place their faith in Jesus the Messiah.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
If you think that election is to salvation, please quote the most clear verse that God chooses unconditionally for salvation.
John 17:2 - As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to " as many as thou hast given him"
This says nothing about election. We KNOW exactly WHO will be given eternal life; those who believe. Jn 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 1 Cor 1:21, etc.

How many did God give to Jesus? Was it all of mankind? If so, will all of mankind have eternal life?
Silly questions. We KNOW exactly who God will save:

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. It's always been that way.

The truth is God choose his elect, which was not all of mankind, and predetermined that Christ would adopt them as his children (Eph 1:4-5).
Explain John 6:70,71 then. Judas was chosen. Do you believe he was saved?

And again, what verse plainly says that election is to salvation?

I am fully prepared to show you a multitude of verses that plainly SAY that election is to service.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
You only have to look across evangelicalism today and see the WIDELY and VARIOUSLY held views of the Bible and KNOW that there is no unity at all.
There is no union between Christians and nonChristians but there is a great amount of unity between Christians and other Christians.
Apparently you either didn't read my comment or you didn't understand it. It was about evangelicalism today. I never said anything about Christians and non Christians. Within evangelicalism (saved people) there is a wide range of differences doctrinally.

I think part of the problem is recognizing the fact that these divisions that are being attributed to Christianity are actually the result of the clash between two different religions.
Well, that's just weird.

Dispensationalists are Christian in the same sense that Moslems or Mormons are Christian. Both Moslems and Mormons hold the New Testament as relevant to their respective canons, but their surrounding scriptures change the meanings and force contradictions with the New Testament.
Your hang-up with dispensationalism is your problem. I dare you to point out any contradictions with viewing human history as dispensations. I'm sure there are people who view covenantism as a religion.

So yes, if you believe in Dispensationalism, you are part of a different religion, with a different body of hermenuetics than what is possible within Christianity.
You couldn't possibly be any more wrong.

Your particular brand of Dispensationalism beliefs are unusual because you reject the standard Dispensationalist position that hypergrace would exist for all Talmudic Jews.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Would you just let go of your anti-dispensationalist views?

Dispensationalists generally interpret Rom 11 to mean that all Talmudic Jews would be saved.
I don't know the difference between Jews and Talmudic Jews. And I don't care.

Dispensationalism espouses the belief that all nonJews are second-class citizens.
Then they are crazy. They are and always will be, God's chosen people. The Bible says so.

The trend I have seen in many cases is that many Dispensationalists themselves will have some kind of Talmudic Jewish ancestry that in the back of their mind will make them feel comfortable by seeing themselves as some kind of upper-second-class or lower-first-class. Especially if they are married-in and/or have children with an established ancestry. It's the same kind of mentality as a poor person believing that they aren't really poor, just temporarily embarassed millionnaires.
None of this nonsense has any application to me.

Emotions can cloud sound judgement. Emotions can distract from the ability to think with sober logical thought. If someone's reaction is extreme to the point that they act like you've slapped their newborn baby, they very likely have a deeply rooted emotional investment.
I'm NO Arminian either, and I find that Calvinists get really hot under the collar when their doctrines are challenged, like limited atonement and election to salvation, none of which they can prove from Scripture.

Now, can you find any verse that clearly shows God choosing anyone FOR salvation? I know you can't.

But if you can, then you will have refuted me.
 

ForestGreenCook

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25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”


There in black and white... and red so you can see it this time. Apology accepted again.
You are not accepting my apology, because I will not apologise for teaching the truth. They are not all Israel, which are of Israel (Rom 9:6). Jacob is representative of God's elect (Rom 9:11). Jacob's name is Israel, and the elect that he represents are from every nation, Tongue and people.
 

ForestGreenCook

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This says nothing about election. We KNOW exactly WHO will be given eternal life; those who believe.
Born again people are God's sheep. Only his sheep hear his voice to believe. Those that are not his sheep believe not, Jesus says they became his sheep, because his Father gave them to him. (John 10:25:29)
 

ForestGreenCook

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1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. It's always been that way.
Again, in case it did not soak in before, only his sheep hear his voice. Some of God's elect people need to be delivered (saved) from a lack of knowledge of what Jesus accomplished for them on the cross, that are going about thinking that their good works will save (deliver) them eternally. After following your posts, they reveal that you are in need of the same deliverance (salvation) as those that have a lack of knowledge of what Jesus did for you on the cross.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
This says nothing about election. We KNOW exactly WHO will be given eternal life; those who believe.
Born again people are God's sheep.
True.

Only his sheep hear his voice to believe.
This is your opinion talking. No verse says anyone is saved before they believe or are regenerated before they believe, or even chosen to believe. All that is just calvinist talking points.

Those that are not his sheep believe not,
One becomes His sheep by believing.

John 10-
6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.
7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep.
8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.
9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Does v.9 sound like God choosing anyone? No. It clearly shows that those who "enter through" Jesus will be saved. From other verses that aren't figures of speech, we KNOW that salvation is through faith. Eph 2:8.

How do you understand 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Jesus says they became his sheep, because his Father gave them to him. (John 10:25:29)
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

v.27 is a description of what His sheep do, or ought to do: listen and follow. There is nothing in this verse to indicate this is a condition for becoming one of His sheep.

v.28 is a straightforward statement about the results of being given eternal life; they shall never perish. Eternal security.

Now, the question is HOW one becomes a recipient of eternal life (I GIVE THEM eternal life).

Well, John explained all that in many verses:

John 3-
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6-
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

All these verses plainly SAY that those who believe possess (has) eternal life. That's how to become His sheep, by believing in Him.

There is NOTHING about becoming His sheep through election. That's just a calvinist talking point.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. It's always been that way.
Again, in case it did not soak in before, only his sheep hear his voice.
The words "His sheep" mean they are already saved. So of course they do. But you are dodging the verse that says that God is pleased to save those who believe. Why? Because it doesn't fit calvinist theology.

Some of God's elect people need to be delivered (saved) from a lack of knowledge of what Jesus accomplished for them on the cross, that are going about thinking that their good works will save (deliver) them eternally.
They aren't EVER chosen to believe, as you continue to think. But you have provided NO VERSE that says that.

I use the Berean study method and am looking for a verse that SAYS what you say.

After following your posts, they reveal that you are in need of the same deliverance (salvation) as those that have a lack of knowledge of what Jesus did for you on the cross.
Such a typical response from those who have no answers to questions and cannot refute others.

You just cop-out with "you're not one of the elect so you haven't been chosen to understand" nonsense.

You can't prove your claims so you punt. Dodge. Avoid. Evade.

Your posts reveal that you have no answers and no verses that support your claims. I'd say you are in desperate need of deliverance of your own deception, or ignorance, or whatever it is that has kept you from the truth.
 
K

kaylagrl

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You are not accepting my apology, because I will not apologise for teaching the truth.
Directly from the Bible Bub. You aren't teaching anything. It's there in black and white for people to read for themselves. I didn't write it, take it up with the One who did.




They are not all Israel, which are of Israel (Rom 9:6). Jacob is representative of God's elect (Rom 9:11). Jacob's name is Israel, and the elect that he represents are from every nation, Tongue and people.
Either you're being obtuse or you don't understand what you are reading in Romans 11. There are two peoples being spoken to in Romans 11. Who are they?! Your answer will tell us what your understanding of Scripture is.
 

ForestGreenCook

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One becomes His sheep by believing.

The state of the unbeliever is that he is "spiritually dead", not being able to understand the things of the Spirit, thinking them to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14).

The only way that an unbeliever, of spiritual things, can become a believer of spiritual things, is by being spiritually born again (Eph 2:1-5.) while he was yet dead spiritually.
 

ForestGreenCook

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The words "His sheep" mean they are already saved. So of course they do. But you are dodging the verse that says that God is pleased to save those who believe. Why? Because it doesn't fit calvinist theology.

Your trouble, in understanding the correct interpretation of the scriptures, is that you are applying all of the salvation scriptures to mean eternal salvation. The Greek meaning of salvation = a deliverance. People that already have their eternal inheritance secured can be delivered as they sojourn here on earth. Example: If they have an illness, and pray that God would heal them, and God does heal them, they have just been saved (delivered) from that illness.

The lack, of good intended children of God, to separate eternal deliverance from deliverances his children receive as they sojourn here in this world, tends to make them believe that their good works are responsible for their eternal deliverance, when, actually, their good works do deliver them here in this world, if they walk in the ways of God.
 

ForestGreenCook

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And again, what verse plainly says that election is to salvation?

Eph 1 - The "US" in verse 4 are those in verse 1, which is the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus. The same "US" in verse 5 that says God predetermined that Jesus would adopt them as his children. Adopting them as his children plainly indicates that they have an eternal inheritance. They were chosen before the foundation of the world, and are being born by natural birth, and then born again spiritually. When we are born spiritually, then, we believe, and have a desire to serve God.

The natural, unregenerate, man has no such desire.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Romans 11. There are two peoples being spoken to in Romans 11. Who are they?! Your answer will tell us what your understanding of Scripture is.

The purpose of God, according to election might stand. FIRST representative of people = The fact that God choose Jacob indicates that Jacob/Israel (God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel - Gen 32:28) represents God's elect people, and, SECOND representative of people = Esau represents the non-elect

Rom 9:15 - For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

This is to show that his election might stand, even though you, seemingly, don't want it to.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
One becomes His sheep by believing.
The state of the unbeliever is that he is "spiritually dead", not being able to understand the things of the Spirit, thinking them to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14).
Doesn't fly. God makes alive those who believe. It's His choice. As for 1 Cor 2:14, if you believe that unbelievers cannot comprehend the gospel, you just haven't met very many of them. It is proven by writers of magazines who CAN and DO describe the Christian gospel accurately all the while not believing any of it. You are just naive if you think unbelievers can't understand the gospel.

As to the verse, it isn't about the gospel. It's about what the chapter is talking about. Context.

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

So, it is very clear from the context that v.14 is about the "deep things of God" which God reveals to believers by His Spirit. Paul was writing about "a message of WISDOM among the MATURE".

So 2:14 refers to the deeper doctrines of the Bible, NOT the gospel.

The only way that an unbeliever, of spiritual things, can become a believer of spiritual things
The gospel is not a spiritual issue but rather a trust issue. Do you believe what God promises? It's that simple.

is by being spiritually born again (Eph 2:1-5.) while he was yet dead spiritually.
Well, you are misreading quite a bit. Let's examine 2 verses in Eph 2.

5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Paul equates the red phrase at the beginning of the verse with the end phrase in blue. iow, they are synonymous. You can't have one without the other. In fact, the Bible never indicates that a person can be made alive but hasn't believed, or the other way around, having believed but not regenerated.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Notice that the blue words are the EXACT SAME as at the end of v.5. And the green words tells us the method of being regenerated and saved; which is through faith.

Calvinists believe that faith and salvation FOLLOWS regeneration but v.8 proves the opposite; that one is saved and regenerated THROUGH FAITH.

Having said all that, what verse plainly indicates that regeneration precedes salvation/faith? If you should find one, then congratulations: you will have PROVEN that the Bible is contradicted.

Good luck hunting. ;)
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
The words "His sheep" mean they are already saved. So of course they do. But you are dodging the verse that says that God is pleased to save those who believe. Why? Because it doesn't fit calvinist theology.
Your trouble, in understanding the correct interpretation of the scriptures, is that you are applying all of the salvation scriptures to mean eternal salvation.
Please don't make me laugh. And please don't try to change the subject. Your claim is phony. In fact, I've never even discussed "all the salvation verses". So how do you even know how I interpret all of them?

The Greek meaning of salvation = a deliverance.
It means to deliver or rescue from some danger. It is applied MOST OFTEN as temporal deliverance, meaning dangers during our lifetimes. Some scholars claim that NONE of the salvation verses in the OT refer to eternal soul salvation. And more than half of the NT salvation verses refer to temporal salvation. It's very common in Romans.

People that already have their eternal inheritance secured can be delivered as they sojourn here on earth.
Irrelevant to the issue of who "His sheep" are. They are eternally saved from the LOF. Their souls are saved.

Example: If they have an illness, and pray that God would heal them, and God does heal them, they have just been saved (delivered) from that illness.
There are many of His sheep who are quite sick, and some have even died. So what's your point?

The lack, of good intended children of God, to separate eternal deliverance from deliverances his children receive as they sojourn here in this world, tends to make them believe that their good works are responsible for their eternal deliverance, when, actually, their good works do deliver them here in this world, if they walk in the ways of God.
What in the world are you even talking about?

Please explain who you think "His sheep" refers to.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
And again, what verse plainly says that election is to salvation?
Eph 1 - The "US" in verse 4 are those in verse 1, which is the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus. The same "US" in verse 5 that says God predetermined that Jesus would adopt them as his children. Adopting them as his children plainly indicates that they have an eternal inheritance.
So far, so good. :)

They were chosen before the foundation of the world, and are being born by natural birth, and then born again spiritually.
None of this is mentioned in v.4. Do you see what "us" has been chosen for in v.4? Or not.

When we are born spiritually, then, we believe
Do you have any verse that says that regeration precedes believing? No, you don't. And I just proved that both regeneration and salvation are THROUGH FAITH, which plainly indicates that faith precedes both regeneration and salvation.

and have a desire to serve God.
What verse plainly says that those who are born again have a desire to serve God?

The natural, unregenerate, man has no such desire.
Because of all the commands in the NT for believers to "stop living like the Gentiles", to "walk worthy" etc, it is or should be, that believers don't automatically have a desire to serve God.

In fact, Paul described his on-going struggle with his sin nature in Romans 7. Note that he wrote that in the present tense, and it isn't a 'historical present".
 
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kaylagrl

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This is to show that his election might stand, even though you, seemingly, don't want it to.

I asked a question, plz be kind enough to answer. To whom was Romans 11 speaking to??
 

ForestGreenCook

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8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

What brings you to make the assumption that, through faith, which you have colored green, is YOUR faith, when, actually, it is Jesus faith (Gal 2:16). If you claim this faith as yours, the next sentence will contradict that assumption, "and that not of yourselves"


The words "His sheep" mean they are already saved. So of course they do. But you are dodging the verse that says that God is pleased to save those who believe. Why? Because it doesn't fit calvinist theology.
Your claim is that I am a Calvinist, when I have never read any of John Calvin's writings. I use only the inspired scriptures, as my study tools, along with the revelation of the Holy Spirit, knowing that scripture proves scripture. You also said that the things that I believe, do not fit calvinist theology.

As I have told you already, that salvation = a deliverance.

Why did Jesus instruct his apostles to go and preach to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel"? You have admitted that if they are sheep, they are delivered eternally, so, yes, some eternally delivered people are in need of being delivered from their lack of knowledge of what Christ has accomplished for them on the cross, for they are going about believing that their good works can deliver them eternally.

Rom 10 is one example of this fact. Paul is praying that God would deliver Israel (spiritual Israel, Jacob/Israel, some of the sheep) Paul said that they have a "zeal" of God, but not according to knowledge. For they, being ignorant of God's righteousness, and are going about to establish their own righteousness.

Another example of those that have been delivered eternally, needing to be delivered as they live their lives here in this world is found in 2 Pet 3:9 - Peter is giving a warning, to them that have obtained like precious faith of our God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (2 Pet 1:1), warning them that when they commit a sin, they separate (perish=death=separation) themselves from their fellowship with God until they repent. Peter even includes himself in the warning, by using the word "USWARD"

.
None of this is mentioned in v.4. Do you see what "us" has been chosen for in v.4? Or not.
Yes, the "US" in verse 4 were chosen to be adopted as his children.