CHRIST THE CHOSEN ONE, THE ELECT OF THE FATHER
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What I am trying to explain to you is that the unregenerate person does not have a desire to serve a spiritual God that he cannot understand (1 Cor 2:14). Only those who have been born again will have such a desire.
Unbelievers CAN understand God as creator, and CAN understand the gospel message. Proof: Romans 2:14,15, which says that God created man with a conscience. The conscience can know right from wrong, so everyone is able to understand the existence of God and the promise of the gospel.
The whole issue is what choice will man make. Of course, that really bothers reformed theology.
FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible is clear that believing is NOT a work. By biblical definition, a work earns a wage. Believing earns nothing. By grace, God is ple
Right!
Every verse has a context.
11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
v.11 is a promise that those who have believed in Christ (died with Him) will live with Him.
v.12 teaches that those who endure in the faith will reign with Him, but if we deny Him, He will deny us the reward of reigning with Him.
v.13 teaches that even when believers are faithless, God remains faithful, because He cannot deny Himself.
This speaks of the indwelling Holy Spirit in everyone who "has believed" per Eph 1:13.
And in the previous chapter of 2 Tim, Paul said, "14 Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us."
This is a guarantee that all who have believed, will live with Him. Eternal security.
It seems that your question deals with those who no longer believe, if I am reading it correctly.
There are 2 verses that very clearly teach who WILL BE condemned, meaning facing the GWT judgment, and then being cast into the LOF.
John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
The key to who will be condemned are those who "have not believed", which means "have NEVER believed".
So, even soil #2 in the parable of the soils stays saved and won't be condemned.
I hope that answers your question. If not, please correct.
Once a believer has believed, they receive eternal life (John 3:15,16, 4:24, 6:47), and are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13,14), and will NEVER be condemned.
The answer to your question is a resounding YES. Once Belief, Always Saved. OBAS
The Bible is clear that believing is NOT a work. By biblical definition, a work earns a wage. Believing earns nothing. By grace, God is ple
When we have been born again, we are in Christ, and Christ within us.
2 Tim 2:13 - If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. So, is believing essential to eternal salvation?
11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
v.11 is a promise that those who have believed in Christ (died with Him) will live with Him.
v.12 teaches that those who endure in the faith will reign with Him, but if we deny Him, He will deny us the reward of reigning with Him.
v.13 teaches that even when believers are faithless, God remains faithful, because He cannot deny Himself.
This speaks of the indwelling Holy Spirit in everyone who "has believed" per Eph 1:13.
And in the previous chapter of 2 Tim, Paul said, "14 Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us."
This is a guarantee that all who have believed, will live with Him. Eternal security.
It seems that your question deals with those who no longer believe, if I am reading it correctly.
There are 2 verses that very clearly teach who WILL BE condemned, meaning facing the GWT judgment, and then being cast into the LOF.
John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
The key to who will be condemned are those who "have not believed", which means "have NEVER believed".
So, even soil #2 in the parable of the soils stays saved and won't be condemned.
I hope that answers your question. If not, please correct.
Once a believer has believed, they receive eternal life (John 3:15,16, 4:24, 6:47), and are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13,14), and will NEVER be condemned.
The answer to your question is a resounding YES. Once Belief, Always Saved. OBAS
But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God—
Berean Study Bible
Berean Study Bible
Who was it that believed in Jesus? It tells us in the following verse 13, and it was those that were born of God.
FreeGrace2 said:
Well then, this proves that they are NOT believers in Him. They are trusting in their own works, and that proves they are not eternally saved, nor are they His sheep
If God has changed their heart, then they HAVE believed in Christ. It's that simple.
Excuse me, but when they heard Peter's explanation, they BECAME believers, which is why they asked that question. And yes, they were born again because they realized that Jesus WAS the Messiah, the basis for salvation.
Well then, this proves that they are NOT believers in Him. They are trusting in their own works, and that proves they are not eternally saved, nor are they His sheep
If God has exchanged their stony heart to a new fleshy heart that can be pricked to feel guilt, then they are sheep.
Some Jews, after hearing Peter telling them that they were to blame in crucifying Christ, were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter, and the rest of the apostles, "men and brethren what shall we do? They were not believers in Christ, but they were his born again sheep.
I was distracted for a moment by playing with a small spider on my screen, chasing him around with my mouse.
Read the rest of the sentence: that we might be justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.
Read the rest of the sentence: that we might be justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.
New International Version
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
English Standard Version
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Berean Study Bible
know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Berean Literal Bible
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by works of law, except through faith from Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith from Christ, and not by works of the Law, because by works of the Law not any flesh will be justified.
New King James Version
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
New American Standard Bible
nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Christian Standard Bible
and yet because we know that a person is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we ourselves have believed in Christ Jesus. This was so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.
American Standard Version
yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
New American Bible
[yet] who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
New Revised Standard Version
yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law.
New Heart English Bible
yet knowing that no one is justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.
World English Bible
yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.
Out of 25 translations, here are 13 translations all sayin the same thing.
Sure, you and cherry pick your favorite translation, as if it's the only one, or only legitimate one, but that doesn't fly.
These 13 translations represent a lot of Greek scholars. You cannot prove that the KJV is correct and these 13 are wrong.
We believe in the fact that Jesus Christ's faith is what justified us. not our faith.
OUR faith is because of OUR believing (Rom 10:10).
FreeGrace2 said:
the FACT that our faith precedes both salvation and regeneration.
I would like you to pay very close attention here, so I can correct your error.
It is God alone who is responsible for my salvation and my regeneration. That is His prerogative alone.
The key, that you seem to not want to admit or even face, is that God is pleased to save those who believe. So, from 1 Cor 1:21, which comes first, salvation or believing? Pretty obvious.
Since your first sentence was in need of correction, so is this one.
Are YOU saying that one who believes solely in Christ for salvation but has no works isn't saved???
the FACT that our faith precedes both salvation and regeneration.
You are saying that your faith is responsible for salvation and regeneration.
It is God alone who is responsible for my salvation and my regeneration. That is His prerogative alone.
The key, that you seem to not want to admit or even face, is that God is pleased to save those who believe. So, from 1 Cor 1:21, which comes first, salvation or believing? Pretty obvious.
Faith without works is dead. So, in actuality, you are saying that your works have saved you.
Are YOU saying that one who believes solely in Christ for salvation but has no works isn't saved???
FreeGrace2 said:
But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God—
Berean Study Bible
Huh? "all who believed", according to John 1:12. What do you think?
"children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."
I can't imagine how you read this verse, but what it teaches is that people become God's children NOT by human birth, or by man's decision, but by God.
iow, it is God's choice to give the right of being His children to those who believe. That is exactly what v.12 means.
Explain since you disagree.
But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God—
Berean Study Bible
Who was it that believed in Jesus?
It tells us in the following verse 13, and it was those that were born of God.
I can't imagine how you read this verse, but what it teaches is that people become God's children NOT by human birth, or by man's decision, but by God.
iow, it is God's choice to give the right of being His children to those who believe. That is exactly what v.12 means.
Explain since you disagree.
Since God is sovereign, of course His grace is too. But, God created mankind with a conscience, with which to be enabled to understand the gospel message and then make their own choice as to whether they believe it or not.
In the process of being born again God exchanges the stony heart with a new fleshy heart that is soft enough to be bricked to feel guilty of breaking spiritual laws. ( 2 Cor 3:3, Ezk 11:19)
FreeGrace2 said:
Since God is sovereign, of course His grace is too. But, God created mankind with a conscience, with which to be enabled to understand the gospel message and then make their own choice as to whether they believe it or not.
You can continue to misunderstand 1 Cor 2:14 all you want. Doesn't bother me at all. But I know that it doesn't refer to the gospel or believing.
Are you aware of WHEN the veil of blindness is taken away from the unsaved?
2 Cor 3:16 tells us. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
So, how's your calvinism stacking up against Scripture?
So explain how 2 Cor 3:16 fits your theology. I read the verse as opposite of your views.
So, either you have it backwards, or Paul did. Who do I believe then? You or Paul.
Since God is sovereign, of course His grace is too. But, God created mankind with a conscience, with which to be enabled to understand the gospel message and then make their own choice as to whether they believe it or not.
Every one of us are born into this world with the sinful nature of Adam, with a heart of stone that cannot be pricked to feel guilty of breaking spiritual laws (1 Cor 2:14).
In the process of being born again God exchanges the stony heart with a new fleshy heart that is soft enough to be bricked to feel guilty of breaking spiritual laws. ( 2 Cor 3:3, Ezk 11:19)
2 Cor 3:16 tells us. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
So, how's your calvinism stacking up against Scripture?
So explain how 2 Cor 3:16 fits your theology. I read the verse as opposite of your views.
So, either you have it backwards, or Paul did. Who do I believe then? You or Paul.
Second, Rom 10:10 tells us where our faith comes from:
Berean Study Bible
For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.
Berean Study Bible
For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.
There is the heart of the natural unregenerate man (1 Cor 2:14), and there is the heart of the born again regenerate man (Ezk 26:26-27)
So is it the heart of the natural man, or, the heart of the born again man?
I was correcting your error that regeneration results in the believer having a desire to serve God. That isn't biblical.
Yes, it is a good work, and God will reward such.
Right. And the NT is full of such commands.
Consider this: if true believers will automatically perform good works, why the commands to do good works? Ever thought about that?
Yes, it is a good work, and God will reward such.
Right. And the NT is full of such commands.
Consider this: if true believers will automatically perform good works, why the commands to do good works? Ever thought about that?
You know, as well as I do, even though we have a desire to serve God, we still do commit sins.
Are you aware of WHEN the veil of blindness is taken away from the unsaved?
2 Cor 3:16 tells us. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2 Cor 3:16 tells us. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2 Cor 3:16 is not addressing the unsaved, it is addressing the children of Israel, This is spiritual Israel/Jacob. Do you not realise that, knowing you are probably among the saved, that I am considering that you still have this veil over your face? When you are converted to the truth, the veil will then be taken off of you.
Unbelievers CAN understand God as creator, and CAN understand the gospel message. Proof: Romans 2:14,15, which says that God created man with a conscience. The conscience can know right from wrong, so everyone is able to understand the existence of God and the promise of the gospel.
Matt 7:16 - Ye shall know them by their fruit. The Gentiles did not have the oracles of God, but they had been regenerated.
FreeGrace2 said:
Second, Rom 10:10 tells us where our faith comes from:
Berean Study Bible
For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.
Salvation is through faith. So the natural man CAN and DOES believe.
Explain the order found in 2 Cor 3:16. It is opposite of your view. Why?
Second, Rom 10:10 tells us where our faith comes from:
Berean Study Bible
For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.
There is the heart of the natural unregenerate man (1 Cor 2:14), and there is the heart of the born again regenerate man (Ezk 26:26-27)
So is it the heart of the natural man, or, the heart of the born again man?
So is it the heart of the natural man, or, the heart of the born again man?
Explain the order found in 2 Cor 3:16. It is opposite of your view. Why?
FreeGrace2 said:
I was correcting your error that regeneration results in the believer having a desire to serve God. That isn't biblical.
This isn't what I was talking about. You seem to believe that regeneratiaon RESULTS in having a desire to serve God. Where do you find that taught in the Bible?
Quite the opposite. It is obeying His commands. Very biblical.
Now, please direct me to the verse that says what you claim.
I was correcting your error that regeneration results in the believer having a desire to serve God. That isn't biblical.
Is walking in his ways the same as a desire to serve him?
Is walking in his ways, not biblical?
Now, please direct me to the verse that says what you claim.
FreeGrace2 said:
Are you aware of WHEN the veil of blindness is taken away from the unsaved?
2 Cor 3:16 tells us. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
The verse refers to reality. When anyone (doesn't say specifically Jew or Gentile) turns to the Lord, the veil of blindness is removed.
That directly opposes your view. Doesn't it.
Why aren't you convinced that I am saved? What or where is your hang-up?
And why do you not realize that when someone turns to the Lord, God removes the veil of blindness. You keep going to 1 Cor 2:14 to claim that unbelievers cannot understand or respond to the gospel, yet 2 Cor 3:16 refutes that idea soundly.
So, let me get this straight, if I can. You think that I am "probably" saved, but I STILL need to be converted to the truth. Hm.
So, what truth, exactly do I need to be converted to? Explain clearly.
Are you aware of WHEN the veil of blindness is taken away from the unsaved?
2 Cor 3:16 tells us. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2 Cor 3:16 is not addressing the unsaved, it is addressing the children of Israel, This is spiritual Israel/Jacob.
That directly opposes your view. Doesn't it.
Do you not realise that, knowing you are probably among the saved, that I am considering that you still have this veil over your face?
And why do you not realize that when someone turns to the Lord, God removes the veil of blindness. You keep going to 1 Cor 2:14 to claim that unbelievers cannot understand or respond to the gospel, yet 2 Cor 3:16 refutes that idea soundly.
When you are converted to the truth, the veil will then be taken off of you.
So, what truth, exactly do I need to be converted to? Explain clearly.