CHRIST THE CHOSEN ONE, THE ELECT OF THE FATHER
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FreeGrace2 said:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Please proceed to prove that Eph 2:8 is defined by Gal 2:16. While you are at it, have you looked at the 28 English translations on bible hub.com? The words "faith of Christ" is translated as "faith in Christ" in many of them. Further, let's look at the whole verse:
King James Bible
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
THE KJV has "faith OF Jesus Christ" followed by "even we have believed IN IN IN Jesus Christ".
So, PROVE that "through faith" in Eph 2:8 means "through the faith of or in Christ" rather than our own.
Here are more translations by Greek scholars, of which neither of us are.
New International Version
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
English Standard Version
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Berean Study Bible
know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
New American Standard Bible
nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
These common translations all say the same thing; that we are justified by faith IN IN IN Christ.
To prove that Eph 2:8 is defined by the KJV is gonna be a tough one.
btw, when a jailer asked Paul what HE MUST DO to be saved (justified), Paul's answer was clear: "believe on the Lord Jesus and YOU will be saved". There is NO way Paul meant "you will be saved by the faith OF or FROM Christ.
First, I DO claim that the verse means my own faith. Obviously Jesus was faithful to go to the cross in the first place, but Eph 2:8 is clear about the FACT that our faith precedes both salvation and regeneration.
Second, Rom 10:10 tells us where our faith comes from:
Berean Study Bible
For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.
Gal 2:16 is ALL about justification. And here we read that we are justified by believing with OUR OWN heart.
You have no point. Oh, just a calvinist talking point.
If you sit under a pastor in the church, you are being fed calvinism by him. If you don't attend church and only read the Bible, then your reading skills are weak.
There is no other. What are you thinking?
Is this some kind of snarky remark that I am not led by the Spirit when I read and study the Bible??
I agree, it sure does. And Scripture does NOT prove calvinism. That's the theology you hold to, whether you know it as that or not.
Please tell me about them.
I know that. And to insist that all the verses that mention salvation refer only to some kind of physical deliverance is silly.
Jesus began with Jews. When they rejected Him as Messiah, which He and the Father already knew they would, then the apostles were sent to the Gentiles, beginning with Paul's election in Acts 9:15.
Those who don't know what Christ accomplished for them on the cross are NOT His sheep.
His sheep are believers IN Him. Real simple. That's how they become His sheep. I already explained that to you. Read John 10 where Jesus says He is the gate for the sheep. Those who "enter through Me" will be saved.
Do you not understand what He meant by these figures of speech? He was saying that those who BELIEVE IN HIM will be saved. Exactly what Paul told the jailer.
Well then, this proves that they are NOT believers in Him. They are trusting in their own works, and that proves they are not eternally saved, nor are they His sheep.
These are NOT Jesus' sheep.
OK. What does this have to do with our discussion?
No the verse says nothing about adoption as His children. Do you understand WHEN the adoption takes place?
This is what the Bible says about believers being His children:
John 1:12 -
Berean Study Bible
But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God—
Berean Study Bible
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
So, our being children of God has NOTHING to do with election. But since you think it does, then what verse SAYS that?
Again, I study like the Bereans did. So you have to show me a verse that SAYS what you believe and claim. You haven't done that.
The verses you have quoted don't even mention election.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Please proceed to prove that Eph 2:8 is defined by Gal 2:16. While you are at it, have you looked at the 28 English translations on bible hub.com? The words "faith of Christ" is translated as "faith in Christ" in many of them. Further, let's look at the whole verse:
King James Bible
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
THE KJV has "faith OF Jesus Christ" followed by "even we have believed IN IN IN Jesus Christ".
So, PROVE that "through faith" in Eph 2:8 means "through the faith of or in Christ" rather than our own.
Here are more translations by Greek scholars, of which neither of us are.
New International Version
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
English Standard Version
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Berean Study Bible
know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
New American Standard Bible
nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
These common translations all say the same thing; that we are justified by faith IN IN IN Christ.
To prove that Eph 2:8 is defined by the KJV is gonna be a tough one.
btw, when a jailer asked Paul what HE MUST DO to be saved (justified), Paul's answer was clear: "believe on the Lord Jesus and YOU will be saved". There is NO way Paul meant "you will be saved by the faith OF or FROM Christ.
First, I DO claim that the verse means my own faith. Obviously Jesus was faithful to go to the cross in the first place, but Eph 2:8 is clear about the FACT that our faith precedes both salvation and regeneration.
Second, Rom 10:10 tells us where our faith comes from:
Berean Study Bible
For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.
Gal 2:16 is ALL about justification. And here we read that we are justified by believing with OUR OWN heart.
You have no point. Oh, just a calvinist talking point.
If you sit under a pastor in the church, you are being fed calvinism by him. If you don't attend church and only read the Bible, then your reading skills are weak.
There is no other. What are you thinking?
Is this some kind of snarky remark that I am not led by the Spirit when I read and study the Bible??
I agree, it sure does. And Scripture does NOT prove calvinism. That's the theology you hold to, whether you know it as that or not.
Please tell me about them.
I know that. And to insist that all the verses that mention salvation refer only to some kind of physical deliverance is silly.
Jesus began with Jews. When they rejected Him as Messiah, which He and the Father already knew they would, then the apostles were sent to the Gentiles, beginning with Paul's election in Acts 9:15.
Those who don't know what Christ accomplished for them on the cross are NOT His sheep.
His sheep are believers IN Him. Real simple. That's how they become His sheep. I already explained that to you. Read John 10 where Jesus says He is the gate for the sheep. Those who "enter through Me" will be saved.
Do you not understand what He meant by these figures of speech? He was saying that those who BELIEVE IN HIM will be saved. Exactly what Paul told the jailer.
Well then, this proves that they are NOT believers in Him. They are trusting in their own works, and that proves they are not eternally saved, nor are they His sheep.
These are NOT Jesus' sheep.
OK. What does this have to do with our discussion?
No the verse says nothing about adoption as His children. Do you understand WHEN the adoption takes place?
This is what the Bible says about believers being His children:
John 1:12 -
Berean Study Bible
But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God—
Berean Study Bible
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
So, our being children of God has NOTHING to do with election. But since you think it does, then what verse SAYS that?
Again, I study like the Bereans did. So you have to show me a verse that SAYS what you believe and claim. You haven't done that.
The verses you have quoted don't even mention election.
FreeGrace2 said:
Do you have any verse that says that regeration precedes believing? No, you don't. And I just proved that both regeneration and salvation are THROUGH FAITH, which plainly indicates that faith precedes both regeneration and salvation.
I explained all of it AGAIN. By the time you get to this post, you will have seen it.
You are the one who hasn't proven that Gal 2:16 says justification is by Jesus' faith. I gave a number of translations, none of which had "faith OF or FROM Christ".
And I gave you a number of translations that all said the same thing: we are justifed by faith IN IN IN Christ.
Anyway, Eph 2;5 and 8 very clearly show that we are saved and regenerated THROUGH FAITH. That means faith IN IN IN Christ. Like it does every where else in the Bible.
Do you have any verse that says that regeration precedes believing? No, you don't. And I just proved that both regeneration and salvation are THROUGH FAITH, which plainly indicates that faith precedes both regeneration and salvation.
I explained all of it AGAIN. By the time you get to this post, you will have seen it.
You are the one who hasn't proven that Gal 2:16 says justification is by Jesus' faith. I gave a number of translations, none of which had "faith OF or FROM Christ".
And I gave you a number of translations that all said the same thing: we are justifed by faith IN IN IN Christ.
Anyway, Eph 2;5 and 8 very clearly show that we are saved and regenerated THROUGH FAITH. That means faith IN IN IN Christ. Like it does every where else in the Bible.
FreeGrace2 said:
What verse plainly says that those who are born again have a desire to serve God?
OK, let's take a look:
Berean Study Bible
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
OK, here's the breakdown for you.
"we are God's workmanship". This refers to our being regenerated by Him.
"created in Christ Jesus to do good works". Real clear. We were regenerated TO DO GOOD WORKS.
"God prepared in advance as our way of life". Again, real clear. God prepared these good works "AS our way of life".
What's totally missing from this verse is your notion that believers are given "a desire to serve God". In fact, there is NO MENTION of "desire" anywhere in the verse.
You have a habit of quoting verses that don't even include the key words that you talk about.
What verse plainly says that those who are born again have a desire to serve God?
OK, let's take a look:
Berean Study Bible
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
OK, here's the breakdown for you.
"we are God's workmanship". This refers to our being regenerated by Him.
"created in Christ Jesus to do good works". Real clear. We were regenerated TO DO GOOD WORKS.
"God prepared in advance as our way of life". Again, real clear. God prepared these good works "AS our way of life".
What's totally missing from this verse is your notion that believers are given "a desire to serve God". In fact, there is NO MENTION of "desire" anywhere in the verse.
You have a habit of quoting verses that don't even include the key words that you talk about.
If you want to stick with the KJV, then I am your person to have a discussion. Otherwise, I have no defense with all of the various versions. I study, using only the KJV, without consulting any other source. The KJV scriptures harmonize together better that any other version. You can make all the claims about other sources that you want, but I am sticking with the KJV
I have noticed that many, so called, students of the scriptures, pick a version of the bible that agrees with their belief that it is up to mankind to save themselves by their works of believing, repenting, confessing, accepting etc. I am sticking with eternal salvation by God's sovereign grace, without any help from mankind.
The desire to serve God is not a good work, but if the desire to serve God does not precede a work, then that work is dead, empty, and unprofitable in every regard. Things must be done in accord to his wishes. They must be done according to His will, time, and way. A service attitude must precede a service action.
Psalms 127:1
“(A Song of degrees for Solomon.) Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.”
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Psalms 127:1
“(A Song of degrees for Solomon.) Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.”
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Well, that's quite a narrow view. But it's your choice. I examine the actual Greek words from the actual text.
Whatever.
My claims are based on the consense of Greek language experts.
Like English,many (most?) Greek words have a range of meanings. So it's always helpful to see how Greek scholars translate the words.
The Bible is clear that believing is NOT a work. By biblical definition, a work earns a wage. Believing earns nothing. By grace, God is ple
Since God is sovereign, of course His grace is too. But, God created mankind with a conscience, with which to be enabled to understand the gospel message and then make their own choice as to whether they believe it or not.
Bottom line: man has no excuse for not believing the gospel. Rom 1:19,21. God has revealed Himself so that man CAN seek Him. Those who don't make their own choice.
Whatever.
My claims are based on the consense of Greek language experts.
Like English,many (most?) Greek words have a range of meanings. So it's always helpful to see how Greek scholars translate the words.
The Bible is clear that believing is NOT a work. By biblical definition, a work earns a wage. Believing earns nothing. By grace, God is ple
Since God is sovereign, of course His grace is too. But, God created mankind with a conscience, with which to be enabled to understand the gospel message and then make their own choice as to whether they believe it or not.
Bottom line: man has no excuse for not believing the gospel. Rom 1:19,21. God has revealed Himself so that man CAN seek Him. Those who don't make their own choice.
I was correcting your error that regeneration results in the believer having a desire to serve God. That isn't biblical.
Yes, it is a good work, and God will reward such.
Right. And the NT is full of such commands.
Consider this: if true believers will automatically perform good works, why the commands to do good works? Ever thought about that?
Yes, it is a good work, and God will reward such.
Right. And the NT is full of such commands.
Consider this: if true believers will automatically perform good works, why the commands to do good works? Ever thought about that?
FreeGrace2 said:
it's always helpful to see how Greek scholars translate the words.
And they keep doing it.
The KJV is archaic and uses words that have changed meaning, quite a bit in some cases. Such as "charity", for example. When the range of meanings is understood, we get a broader view of what the author was saying.
The good news is that the range of meanings never contain contradictions. No word that I can think of has opposite meanings.
Feel free if you know of any.
it's always helpful to see how Greek scholars translate the words.
And they keep doing it.
The KJV is archaic and uses words that have changed meaning, quite a bit in some cases. Such as "charity", for example. When the range of meanings is understood, we get a broader view of what the author was saying.
The good news is that the range of meanings never contain contradictions. No word that I can think of has opposite meanings.
Feel free if you know of any.
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If God has exchanged their stony heart to a new fleshy heart that can be pricked to feel guilt, then they are sheep. Some Jews, after hearing Peter telling them that they were to blame in crucifying Christ, were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter, and the rest of the apostles, "men and brethren what shall we do? They were not believers in Christ, but they were his born again sheep.