Christians are Israel

[Abiding]

Red you are doing the hit and run stuff again:


Originally Posted by Red33
How many of you, when you hear the term 'twelve tribes' actually think of the church instead of thinking of the twelve tribes of Israel? When James wrote his letter, He addressed that letter to the 'twelve tribes' scattered abroad. How many of you think that James (a converted Jew) was addressing His letter to the 'twelve tribes' of Israel or to the 'twelve tribes' of the church? If you believe he was addressing the 'twelve tribes of the church, please explain who those 'twelve tribes' are referring to.

In (Mt 19:27) who is Jesus referring to , who will sit on twelve thrones judging the 'twelve tribes' of Israel. Are these 'twelve tribes' the church, the true Israel? If they are the church then which tribe or tribes do the Gentiles belong to?

Who are the 'twelve tribes' that Paul refers to in (Acts 26:7)?

In (Rev 21:10,11) that great city, holy Jerusalem, shall descend out of heaven, having twelve gates with the name of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. Who are the 'twelve tribes' referred to here by name?

In (Rev 7:4-8) there are 'twelve tribes' of the children of Israel referred to by name that equal 144,000 men from these tribes. Are we to think of these men as part of the church that is made of both Jew and Gentile or are these all children of Israel who are Jews from birth?

Has God en-grafted Gentiles into the Jewish stock of these twelve tribes?

It is so clear and evident that Paul makes a distinction between those of Israel and those of the Gentiles. They are never commingled. God has made both one when both the Jew of Israel and the Gentile of the world believe upon the Son for salvation. They are not commingled but they are made one. The Gentile becomes a child of God and not a child of Israel. Paul never considered himself a Gentile the whole time he was an apostle to the Gentiles and he made that very clear. Peter went to the children of Israel and Paul went to the Gentiles. Never does a child of Israel become a Gentile nor a Gentile become a child of Israel.

Israel was God's elect people and the gospel was given to them and is of them as the Jews. Those of the Jews that believed became the remnant of the Jews that took the gospel to the Gentiles in all the world, but it was given to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. The church is made of both Jew and Gentile who believe. The twelve tribes of the children of Israel have nothing to do with the church and never have no matter how much people try to make it so. The believing Jew is part of the church as well as the Gentile and there is no partiality or special privilege in being a Jew.

When Jesus came unto His own and His own received Him not, those that He came to were not the Gentiles, they were the Jews and they rejected Him as the Messiah and they crucified Him and Peter made that very clear when he preached at Pentecost.




i asked
Huh? Are the 12 tribes a reference to Israel? Is Israel as a whole also known as "the commonwealth of Israel"? Your trying to say that jew and gentile make up the church and stay seperate?

you dodged
I offer:

<< Ephesians 2 >>
King James Version
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So Red seperate? Are we? or did we join or get grafted into Israel
some translations say we become citizens of Israel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well the original 12 tribes in Jerusalem who were converts knew the the old system was vanishing; Hebrews 8:13, "When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." So put this fact in the back of your mind, why would James call the Christians in Israel the 12 tribes? Verse 2 answers this...They were going through tremendous tribulation. But James ends his book in a positive edifying note, chapter 5, (7) "to be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord" (in judgment)...EG you said yourself that James is writing to specifically Jewish Christians, and the book of James is not a book of prophecy and prophetic events. Did the 1st century Jews Christians see the coming of the Lord? Not in the sense of the 2nd Advent, but in vindication, and James explains this in the following verses 8 and 9, "coming of the Lord is at Hand" and "Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!"

Think about what you just said..

first I will say this.

Jewish believers understood ONLY that the law never saved them, but was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.

The law had absolutely nothing to do with the Abrahamic covenant, and Gods promise to give his seed (only through Issaac) the possesion of the land of Canaan. They also would have known this. and been able to separate the two. (the law was given over 400 years after the covenant was made) and had nothing to do with salvaion, contrary to what many jews who rejected the true gospel of Christ believed

Even the disciples. after walking with Christ for 3 years, and continually getting shut down about how the law of Moses will not save anyone, or make them righteous before god, at the very end still believed Christ would return and restore Israel. And jesus did not correct them (acts 1) in fact, he did the opposite. he told them it was not for them to know the time when this would take place..

remember the mystery had now been revealed. The disciples were told as they saw Christ leave, so it will be when he returns.. Through OT prophesy, Through the NT prophesy and revelation given by Paul and John, and even jesus himself. these 12 tribes of believing jews would have understood what "christ will return to enforce judgment. he will destroy daniels 4th beast, he will punish severely the gentile nations who treated his people bad while they were in their hand for her sin, he will restore the kingdom, and he will set up his throne.

nothing anyone has shown me would make me think any jew, believing or not. did not think this. Even today, unlike many in the church who just change OT prophesy from a literal to symbolic interpretation. they take a literal interpretation. the difference is, they get rid of books like daniel. which could not have been fulfilled, thus could not have come from God.

so why would we think they did not think as his own disciples did? there would be no reason not to.

The

main point, James called the Christians in Israel the 12 tribes because he was addressing them specifically

(maybe, or the whole Roman region of believers, the Jews were spread all over) , and sense James was addressing Christians we can by association claim that true Israel a spiritual nation and a continuation of the old with new and better promises. I don't have time to get into all the details, but you heard the argument before.

I know we disagree on this, but I still love yah...

you know I do too with you. This is not a salvic issue, I hate when these arguments get so heated.. I wish they would not.. I hate myself when it gets this way!

 

[zone]

Luther is well documented to be an avid hater of Isreal, he even wrote a thesis or book on it.

please keep your facts straight, EG.
Luther fought FOR the jews. he denounced anti-jewish thought or action.

BUT THEN....he found the Talmud. his treatise is certainly angry and condemning. he was ticked off at having been so deceived. so are a lot of us. it doesn't translate into MURDER....murder is what xtian zionism is doing.....thanks to dispensationalism.

isn't it about time you find the Talmud? and find out what american evangelicals are actually "blessing"?
don't you know Judaism says Jesus was a sorcerer (the unpardobale sin) and sinner; His mother was a whore; and Christians are worthy of death?

whatever...that's off topic in the strictest sense.
but really....we have a duty to find out what we are "blessing" because we have swallowed a lie about what Genesis 12 says.

EG i love you.

 

[Abiding]

Deflecting is when you answer a series of questions with a question. Isn't that what you did? If you don't want to answer the post that is fine, then stay silent and let others. That is the easy thing and you don't get any backlash. You seem to have some reasonableness, so you just might agree.

stop it Red you didnt ask me a series of question. And the post i responded to i did answer
the the question in it in as much detail it would permit....then asked you a question
and you deflected.nice try but ive learned to keep an eye on you while
your playing to the crowd

 

[zone]

after paul said this. he commanded these believing gentiles do not get puffed up in pride. for one day, when their time is fulfilled, there will be a falling away, and at this time, ALL ISREAL WILL BE SAVED........thats a period!!

Romans 11
The Remnant of Israel
1I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,a a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3&#8220;Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.&#8221; 4But what is God&#8217;s reply to him? &#8220;I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.&#8221; 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8as it is written,

&#8220;God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.&#8221;

9And David says,

&#8220;Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.&#8221;

~

4But what is God&#8217;s reply to him? &#8220;I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.&#8221; 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

Romans 8
29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

this is messy EG your mixing up the fullness of the gentiles and the times of the gentiles
the fullness of the gentiles Paul fulfilled in his day.

how could it be fulfilled in his day? Paul said at this time all isreal will be saved, did that happen in his day? Jerusalem did not even get destroyed until after he was gone, Not to mention. Paul said at this time the blindness which binds Israel in unbelief will be removed. That did not happen in paul's day either. this makes no sense.

And in that day, when the term fulness of the gentiles was used. Everyone would have understood he was speaking of daniels prophesies of the 5 kingdoms of gentile dominion over the city of jerusalem, which started with babylon, and will end with the reformed roman empire.

All Israel..."will be saved" ABSOLUTLY. No doubt about it if you listen to Pauls point "all the remnant"
Have to go back and read who is true Israel. Come on unbelievers dont get saved...remember?

1. I never said unbelievers will get saved. A jew who does not repent will go to hell just as a gentile unbeliever will. Paul is not saying unbelieving jews will get saved in unbelief!! He said they will get saved because their blindness has been removed.. and they have repented!

2. Paul separated gentile believers from these "all isreal", thus this "All Isreal" can not have a believing gentile as part of its meaning.

3. The Body of Christ is not true Israel. There is no jew (Israel) or greek (gentile), male or female, free or slave. we have our own identity, and that is Christ.

 

[Abiding]

please keep your facts straight, EG.
Luther fought FOR the jews. he denounced anti-jewish thought or action.

BUT THEN....he found the Talmud. his treatise is certainly angry and condemning. he was ticked off at having been so deceived. so are a lot of us. it doesn't translate into MURDER....murder is what xtian zionism is doing.....thanks to dispensationalism.

isn't it about time you find the Talmud? and find out what american evangelicals are actually "blessing"?
don't you know Judaism says Jesus was a sorcerer (the unpardobale sin) and sinner; His mother was a whore; and Christians are worthy of death?

whatever...that's off topic in the strictest sense.
but really....we have a duty to find out what we are "blessing" because we have swallowed a lie about what Genesis 12 says.

EG i love you.

I tell people alot if america is being blessed for supporting Israel can we please
stop soon? since '48 till now....im scared we cant afford anymore of these blessings of Abraham

 

[Colours]

Not necessarily 'Christians', as the broad-spectrum term applies. But rather, 'those who do the will of my Father who sent me'.

God can inspire those not necessarily self-classed by the term 'Christian'.

An act of love, for the sake of love, is just as valid, if not more valid, than a pledge of allegiance or the taking of a title.

 

[Colours]

Israel, 'The Kingdom of God'.

'Not something we can look at and say 'there it is'.

By definition, the Way of God is humble, not always 'there in front of us'.

It's the quiet voice in the room that has love and faith that can move mountains.

It's more of a 'being', than a 'something I call myself'.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

sorry i got this peave: jacobs trouble was 70 in babylon.....where does it say thats gona be a rerun?

Jacobs trouble comes at a time when God brings the dispersed of Isreal back to her land.

jer 30:
3 For behold, the days are coming,&#8217; says the Lord, &#8216;that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,&#8217; says the Lord. &#8216;And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.&#8217;&#8221;


We are told jacobs trouble will be so severe, there will never be a time on earth like it again.. 70 AD pailed in comparison to both ww1 and ww2. i am sure we can find many great times of tribulation even long before that which would make 70 Ad pale in comparison

jer 30: 7
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob&#8217;s trouble,

Isreal will be saved during this time, not destroyed and scattered!

jer 30: 7
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob&#8217;s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Jacobs trouble is said to be worldwide in scope. God will judge the gentile nations (world) who have held jacob captive. he will not send them to captivity, but save them from it.

Jer 30: 8-9
&#8216;For it shall come to pass in that day,&#8217; Says the Lord of hosts, &#8216;That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

isreal will no longer serve gentiles. but serve her God because she has repented.

Jer 30
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.

God reassures them. Although he will punish them for their sin, he will make an end of gentile nations (fullness of the gentiles) And restor her to her land where she will live in peace.

jer 30:
&#8216;Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,&#8217; says the Lord, &#8216;Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,&#8217; says the Lord, &#8216;to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.&#8217;

we could go on. But the rest of Jer 30 speaks of Gods punishment for her great sins, which will get so severe, he completely destroys her and makes her nothing, (who will come to you, where have your lovers gone etc) but at the end, he will restor here, remove her blindness. and she will see him for who he is, stop her adultry with forign Gods, and return to him, this is when God will punish the gentiles, who have enslaved her, mistreated her and made a mockery of her.

non of this happened in ad 70. AD 70 was relegated to a small nation, not against the gentiles who enslaved Isreal. and isreal is not restored nor is she living in peace.

jacobs trouble (or the great tribulation spoken of by Christ in matt 24) has not happened yet.

 

[Abiding]

how could it be fulfilled in his day? Paul said at this time all isreal will be saved, did that happen in his day? Jerusalem did not even get destroyed until after he was gone, Not to mention. Paul said at this time the blindness which binds Israel in unbelief will be removed. That did not happen in paul's day either. this makes no sense.

And in that day, when the term fulness of the gentiles was used. Everyone would have understood he was speaking of daniels prophesies of the 5 kingdoms of gentile dominion over the city of jerusalem, which started with babylon, and will end with the reformed roman empire.



1. I never said unbelievers will get saved. A jew who does not repent will go to hell just as a gentile unbeliever will. Paul is not saying unbelieving jews will get saved in unbelief!! He said they will get saved because their blindness has been removed.. and they have repented!

2. Paul separated gentile believers from these "all isreal", thus this "All Isreal" can not have a believing gentile as part of its meaning.

3. The Body of Christ is not true Israel. There is no jew (Israel) or greek (gentile), male or female, free or slave. we have our own identity, and that is Christ.

Weve had this conversation...................fullness=status/blessing/establishment etc. Paul said he preached the gospel to the known world in his own day. The gentiles were "full"( its not a number.)
Thats not what hes saying.

Read all of 9-11 to see who Israel is then apply that to see "all Israel" Dont mix the op in this. Dont mix
Dan times of the gentiles with fullness of the gentiles either, its not the same term or meaning

In other words the Partial hardening was to happen untill gentiles were brought in get established
receive all the kingdom blessing...make the jews jelious. then the partial hardening was removed.
All the while not one was lost.

He cut them all off for unbelief to show all of them mercy........how? out of Zion came a deliverer
and so through the cross they can be grafted back in....and they have.....the rest is a story added
to the bible.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I tell people alot if america is being blessed for supporting Israel can we please
stop soon? since '48 till now....im scared we cant afford anymore of these blessings of Abraham

lol.. I used to be told this. what a crock. America was blessed because she followed God. and now she is being cursed because she is getting away from God. yet she still is pro Isreal. I guess those who teach we must bless israel to be blessed got it wrong!!!

 

[Abiding]

Jacobs trouble comes at a time when God brings the dispersed of Isreal back to her land.

jer 30:
3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the Lord. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’”


We are told jacobs trouble will be so severe, there will never be a time on earth like it again.. 70 AD pailed in comparison to both ww1 and ww2. i am sure we can find many great times of tribulation even long before that which would make 70 Ad pale in comparison

jer 30: 7
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,

Isreal will be saved during this time, not destroyed and scattered!

jer 30: 7
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Jacobs trouble is said to be worldwide in scope. God will judge the gentile nations (world) who have held jacob captive. he will not send them to captivity, but save them from it.

Jer 30: 8-9
‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’ Says the Lord of hosts, ‘That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

isreal will no longer serve gentiles. but serve her God because she has repented.

Jer 30
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.

God reassures them. Although he will punish them for their sin, he will make an end of gentile nations (fullness of the gentiles) And restor her to her land where she will live in peace.

jer 30:
‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the Lord, ‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’

we could go on. But the rest of Jer 30 speaks of Gods punishment for her great sins, which will get so severe, he completely destroys her and makes her nothing, (who will come to you, where have your lovers gone etc) but at the end, he will restor here, remove her blindness. and she will see him for who he is, stop her adultry with forign Gods, and return to him, this is when God will punish the gentiles, who have enslaved her, mistreated her and made a mockery of her.

non of this happened in ad 70. AD 70 was relegated to a small nation, not against the gentiles who enslaved Isreal. and isreal is not restored nor is she living in peace.

jacobs trouble (or the great tribulation spoken of by Christ in matt 24) has not happened yet.

EG you using scripture talking about the babylonian captivity.....sorry all fulfilled
Jacobs trouble was 70 yrs not 7

 

[Bookends]

remember the mystery had now been revealed. The disciples were told as they saw Christ leave, so it will be when he returns.. Through OT prophesy, Through the NT prophesy and revelation given by Paul and John, and even jesus himself. these 12 tribes of believing jews would have understood what "christ will return to enforce judgment. he will destroy daniels 4th beast, he will punish severely the gentile nations who treated his people bad while they were in their hand for her sin, he will restore the kingdom, and he will set up his throne.!

Jay E Adams does a very good job of explaining how the book of Daniel has been fulfilled. The book of Daniel speaks very little of the 4th beast, but mostly of the 3rd beast, the kingdom of Greece. Revelations IMO, picks up from where Daniel leaves off. It's too much to explain, but I didn't make this post to be contentious, but by he very nature of the title it is...I should have know better.

Jay E Adams at sermonaudio.com if anyone is interested.

 

[Abiding]

lol.. I used to be told this. what a crock. America was blessed because she followed God. and now she is being cursed because she is getting away from God. yet she still is pro Isreal. I guess those who teach we must bless israel to be blessed got it wrong!!!

yes America was blessed. Look at the facts and stats since 48.
Show me anywhere where America didnt suddenly start a decline
and where are the blessings? where?

 

[zone]

EG you using scripture talking about the babylonian captivity.....sorry all fulfilled
Jacobs trouble was 70 yrs not 7

amen Abiding.

 

[Colours]

Lol Israel as a country hasn't been around that long. It's a piece of land. A name given to some literal land.

No law can cover bad moral. It's eating the flesh of the swine.

'Blessed be that country that bombs another country and kills. Hey and while we're at it, blessed be America too, as a piece of land, a figurehead, that also bombs another country. yep, guess that goes for the UK aswell'.

Jesus would be proud ... *sarcasm*

It's not the land. We don't bless our fields that they may grow crops. We wish blessings for the good people toiling in those fields, that they may be rewarded. And for the bad, that they be forgiven.

'For the worker deserves his wages'.

When we grow our wheat, we reap what we sew. As is the law.

If I plant my wheat in good soil, it grows and bears good crop!

Israel, as a country, is as meaningless to righteousness as any land border is. They mean nothing except that one is governed by a different man (or woman) than another.

But it is THE WORLD that is under God. And individually, each person in it.

If I cross into literal Israel and then abide by their law, yet not God's, (as many do in certain countries), then how can I dare say I am of the Israel that God speaks of??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

please keep your facts straight, EG.
Luther fought FOR the jews. he denounced anti-jewish thought or action.

You should read his book..

BUT THEN....he found the Talmud. his treatise is certainly angry and condemning. he was ticked off at having been so deceived. so are a lot of us. it doesn't translate into MURDER....murder is what xtian zionism is doing.....thanks to dispensationalism.

1. He should have known they were still in sin. Scripture tells us when they will repent. being a Bible scholar, he should have known. but he could not, because ammilienial misinterpretation of prophesy would not allow him to see it.
2. he did not all of a sudden start hating them, and not for this. this is rediculous. Paul said we are to hate them for the gospel. but not start a crusade against them of hate and murder (like he proposed)

I am not a xtian zionist. And stop saying I am! Not all who believe in the return of Isreal are this way. so stop assuming we all do. Just because there is bad in a belief does not mean the belief itself is wrong.

isn't it about time you find the Talmud? and find out what american evangelicals are actually "blessing"?

why would I worry about the tulmud? Is God not able to defeat this false gospel like he has every other gospel in the world?
And who said I agree with these christian evangelicals? They do not phase me, nor affect me.. The gospel is what I am worried about. Not a bunch of blind jews who are still playing the harlot with babylon.

don't you know Judaism says Jesus was a sorcerer (the unpardobale sin) and sinner; His mother was a whore; and Christians are worthy of death?

yeah it did. And until the blindness of Isreal is removed, they will continue to do as they are doing. so why fight it? your not going to win, Prophesy states they will be this way, and we should be suprised by it?

whatever...that's off topic in the strictest sense.
but really....we have a duty to find out what we are "blessing" because we have swallowed a lie about what Genesis 12 says.

EG i love you.

I am not worried about gen 12. And to be honest. gen 12 would not just be interpreted to mean Isreal, it would also include ishmeal and all Abrahams other children (bless those who bless you) so if these xtian zionists as you call them, where interpreting it right, they would be blessing all of Abrahams children, not just one. So hey. Lets all love and bless Tulmadism, and Islam. for they are all Abrahams offspring.. (get my jab against them??)

I am more worried about Gen 13 and 15, where god promised to give land to abraham and ALL his descendants as an eternal inheritance. If it is not eternal as god promised. then we must fear. because jesus gave us eternal life. if God can not keep his promise to abraham, what is to stop him from keeping his promise to us?

this is why I fight so hard for this topic.. because of what it does to god and his promises. You know I love you too sis. Forgive me for getting NUTS sometimes.. Sometimes i do not know when to leave and cool down..

 

[Abiding]

Jay E Adams does a very good job of explaining how the book of Daniel has been fulfilled. The book of Daniel speaks very little of the 4th beast, but mostly of the 3rd beast, the kingdom of Greece. Revelations IMO, picks up from where Daniel leaves off. It's too much to explain, but I didn't make this post to be contentious, but by he very nature of the title it is...I should have know better.

Jay E Adams at sermonaudio.com if anyone is interested.

ran into jay on sermonaudio got hooked till i heard every message
wow i love him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Weve had this conversation...................fullness=status/blessing/establishment etc. Paul said he preached the gospel to the known world in his own day. The gentiles were "full"( its not a number.)
Thats not what hes saying.

Read all of 9-11 to see who Israel is then apply that to see "all Israel" Dont mix the op in this. Dont mix
Dan times of the gentiles with fullness of the gentiles either, its not the same term or meaning

1. I cant. they are not all saying the same thing

2. 9 is speaking against the belief that isreal get an automatic pass. and That God did not make a mistake in choosing isreal.

3. 11 is to show us God is not done with isreal..

you can not put them together as one topic. when even paul says they are not..

as for fullness of the gentiles.. read jer 30 about the time of jacobs trouble. and what happens.. It is THEN that Isreal is restored and repents. and thus it is THEN that they all are saved.. prophesies goes together..

In other words the Partial hardening was to happen untill gentiles were brought in get established
receive all the kingdom blessing...make the jews jelious. then the partial hardening was removed.
All the while not one was lost.

lol. Isreal is still in rebellion. you think the talmud will save them? as yu say, how can an unbelieving jew be saved? if they are still blind, as we know they are.. the the fulness has not yet come has it?

He cut them all off for unbelief to show all of them mercy........how? out of Zion came a deliverer
and so through the cross they can be grafted back in....and they have.....the rest is a story added
to the bible.

this does not make sense, there were saved people from isreal before the cross. but there was far more unbelieving people in isreal before the cross who will never see heaven.. As far as salvation goes. Isreal was cutt off long before the cross. they cut themselves off in unbelief. But them being a nation which represents God was cut off in ad 70, and the things of God where then given to the gentiles.. But they too one day will be cut off, and this will be given back to Isreal.. Most of the OT times. most of Isreal was not saved. But God still used her.. it was not until ad 70 she was cut off completely.. so it does not make sense what yousay.. (not to mention. many OT believers were gentile and not even jewish)