Christians are Israel
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All I am saying is that the wheat and tares are not 'here and there', or 'him vs him'. They are within you.
Wickedness is a part of you. As it is a part of me. I can be wicked. I have that ability. Some have it more than others. So some will suffer greater loss than others.
It is impossible to say that just because I believe myself to be 'born again', that my inability to be wicked is gone. Because it is not.
Sometimes my anger precedes me.
None are good.
Wickedness is a part of you. As it is a part of me. I can be wicked. I have that ability. Some have it more than others. So some will suffer greater loss than others.
It is impossible to say that just because I believe myself to be 'born again', that my inability to be wicked is gone. Because it is not.
Sometimes my anger precedes me.
None are good.
E
lol.. have you ever read the OT and what God said about peace??
this is not what he spoke off.. thanks for trying though..
lev 26
3 ‘If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them,
4 then I will give you rain in its season, the land shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
5 Your threshing shall last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing;
you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
6 I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none will make you afraid;
I will rid the land of evil beasts,
and the sword will not go through your land.
7 You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you.
8 Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight;
your enemies shall fall by the sword before you.
9 ‘For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you.
10 You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.
11 I will set My tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you.
12 I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people.
13 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that you should not be their slaves;
I have broken the bands of your yoke and made you walk upright.
jer 30:
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the Lord of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
notice in both of these passages, god promised to break the yoke and the bonds..
this is the peace god spoke of in the OT. on earth, not in heaven!
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I have read that whole passage and I still don't see who any of that is talking about the literal 'fields' and 'lands'.
If a person is in good stead, loves even those who hate him, then of course their enemies cannot harm them!
The Kingdom of God isn't of flesh. It is of peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit!
It is not something we look at and say 'there it is'.
Do you think God will give us all these commandments of love, then one day say 'yes, go, grab a sword (a metal weapon) and kill the people who tried to hurt you.
Come on ...
If a person is in good stead, loves even those who hate him, then of course their enemies cannot harm them!
The Kingdom of God isn't of flesh. It is of peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit!
It is not something we look at and say 'there it is'.
Do you think God will give us all these commandments of love, then one day say 'yes, go, grab a sword (a metal weapon) and kill the people who tried to hurt you.
Come on ...
E
lol. ok then.. thanks for your opinion. I now see where you are comming from. and see no need to continue
if you continued reading lev 26, you would see how God promised great punishment if they did not obey his commands and follow him.. thus he had to be talking about physical land and physical, because everything he promised would happen to them literally were fulfilled.and are still being fulfilled today! It even tells them that even after this, if they will repent, he will restor them to what he promised in the passages I showed. That is the restoration we are discussing.
if you continued reading lev 26, you would see how God promised great punishment if they did not obey his commands and follow him.. thus he had to be talking about physical land and physical, because everything he promised would happen to them literally were fulfilled.and are still being fulfilled today! It even tells them that even after this, if they will repent, he will restor them to what he promised in the passages I showed. That is the restoration we are discussing.
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Of course there are punishments when we don't obey God's commandments!
If I do something wrong, I'm gonna suffer for it. Whether that be further deviation from God's way, or as actual punishment.
It is good for me to realise that deviating from what God wants is bad enough on it's own. I'll end up living a life without any meaningful direction and come the day I sit before God it'll all have been a pointless pursuit.
But perhaps you might ask if you actually desire to go and kill people that have wronged you? And perhaps that's why you've read it in this way?
'I tell you, forgive and you will be forgiven'.
Bit of a contradiction though, isn't there?
Let me ask you, come the day where god supposedly will have those literally 'fall by the sword before you', will you be happy to see them slain? Would you cut them down?
If I do something wrong, I'm gonna suffer for it. Whether that be further deviation from God's way, or as actual punishment.
It is good for me to realise that deviating from what God wants is bad enough on it's own. I'll end up living a life without any meaningful direction and come the day I sit before God it'll all have been a pointless pursuit.
But perhaps you might ask if you actually desire to go and kill people that have wronged you? And perhaps that's why you've read it in this way?
'I tell you, forgive and you will be forgiven'.
Bit of a contradiction though, isn't there?
Let me ask you, come the day where god supposedly will have those literally 'fall by the sword before you', will you be happy to see them slain? Would you cut them down?
A
Jacobs trouble comes at a time when God brings the dispersed of Isreal back to her land.Nope its about their past captivity in Babylon!
jer 30:
3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the Lord. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’”yes and some 70 years later they returned from Babylon.
We are told jacobs trouble will be so severe, there will never be a time on earth like it again.. 70 AD pailed in comparison to both ww1 and ww2. i am sure we can find many great times of tribulation even long before that which would make 70 Ad pale in comparison
That is not in the text. It was severe but dont add all that other stuff. Read history.Theres nothing in the text talking about Europe sheesh.
jer 30: 7
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,exactly the captivity in Babylon was troublesome to Jacob
Isreal will be saved during this time, not destroyed and scattered!
Nope you added that it says back in verse 3 ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
that puts that whole thing in a pinch huh?
jer 30: 7
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.And he was...they went back home about 536 BC
Jacobs trouble is said to be worldwide in scope. God will judge the gentile nations (world) who have held jacob captive. he will not send them to captivity, but save them from it.You added to the text again it says nothing about a world wide scope.
Jer 30: 8-9
‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’ Says the Lord of hosts, ‘That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.This was brought out earlier and referred to as the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar (Jer. 27:8) Babylon ok? those foreigners wont enslave them any more
isreal will no longer serve gentiles. but serve her God because she has repented.thats not what it say and it couldnt that would contradict to many OT prophecies.
Jer 30
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.
God reassures them. Although he will punish them for their sin, he will make an end of gentile nations (fullness of the gentiles) And restor her to her land where she will live in peace.Now its turning messianic: David's household, Zerubbabel. Zerubbabel was of the kingly lineage of David but he never was king; he was governor only. The Jews never really had a legitimate king from the house of David after the Babylonian captivity, until Jesus. The reference to David here is the reference to the Messiah. Looking over at Acts chapter 2:30 Peter is preaching and referring to David he says:
Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne
Adding again there is absolutely nothing said about putting an end to gentile nations sheesh! Or anything about the fullness of the gentiles.(which again your probably meaning "times of the gentiles")
jer 30:
‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the Lord, ‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’Again this happened approx 536BC
we could go on. But the rest of Jer 30 speaks of Gods punishment for her great sins, which will get so severe, he completely destroys her and makes her nothing, (who will come to you, where have your lovers gone etc) but at the end, he will restor here, remove her blindness. and she will see him for who he is, stop her adultry with forign Gods, and return to him, this is when God will punish the gentiles, who have enslaved her, mistreated her and made a mockery of her.
non of this happened in ad 70. AD 70 was relegated to a small nation, not against the gentiles who enslaved Isreal. and isreal is not restored nor is she living in peace.Not applicable
jacobs trouble (or the great tribulation spoken of by Christ in matt 24) has not happened yet.
jer 30:
3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the Lord. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’”yes and some 70 years later they returned from Babylon.
We are told jacobs trouble will be so severe, there will never be a time on earth like it again.. 70 AD pailed in comparison to both ww1 and ww2. i am sure we can find many great times of tribulation even long before that which would make 70 Ad pale in comparison
That is not in the text. It was severe but dont add all that other stuff. Read history.Theres nothing in the text talking about Europe sheesh.
jer 30: 7
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,exactly the captivity in Babylon was troublesome to Jacob
Isreal will be saved during this time, not destroyed and scattered!
Nope you added that it says back in verse 3 ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
that puts that whole thing in a pinch huh?
jer 30: 7
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.And he was...they went back home about 536 BC
Jacobs trouble is said to be worldwide in scope. God will judge the gentile nations (world) who have held jacob captive. he will not send them to captivity, but save them from it.You added to the text again it says nothing about a world wide scope.
Jer 30: 8-9
‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’ Says the Lord of hosts, ‘That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.This was brought out earlier and referred to as the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar (Jer. 27:8) Babylon ok? those foreigners wont enslave them any more
isreal will no longer serve gentiles. but serve her God because she has repented.thats not what it say and it couldnt that would contradict to many OT prophecies.
Jer 30
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.
God reassures them. Although he will punish them for their sin, he will make an end of gentile nations (fullness of the gentiles) And restor her to her land where she will live in peace.Now its turning messianic: David's household, Zerubbabel. Zerubbabel was of the kingly lineage of David but he never was king; he was governor only. The Jews never really had a legitimate king from the house of David after the Babylonian captivity, until Jesus. The reference to David here is the reference to the Messiah. Looking over at Acts chapter 2:30 Peter is preaching and referring to David he says:
Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne
Adding again there is absolutely nothing said about putting an end to gentile nations sheesh! Or anything about the fullness of the gentiles.(which again your probably meaning "times of the gentiles")
jer 30:
‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the Lord, ‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’Again this happened approx 536BC
we could go on. But the rest of Jer 30 speaks of Gods punishment for her great sins, which will get so severe, he completely destroys her and makes her nothing, (who will come to you, where have your lovers gone etc) but at the end, he will restor here, remove her blindness. and she will see him for who he is, stop her adultry with forign Gods, and return to him, this is when God will punish the gentiles, who have enslaved her, mistreated her and made a mockery of her.
non of this happened in ad 70. AD 70 was relegated to a small nation, not against the gentiles who enslaved Isreal. and isreal is not restored nor is she living in peace.Not applicable
jacobs trouble (or the great tribulation spoken of by Christ in matt 24) has not happened yet.
E
can't be. babylon was one kingdom. not many kingdoms. sorry but I can not agree..
They did not possess the land after their return from babylon. Posses means to own. they did not own it. in fact, it was not even after babylon, it was during the reign of the meds and persions in which they returned. yet media persia still possessed the land. Not Isreal.
I did read history. This time is the same time as the tribulation spoken of in Matt 24.. It says there will be none like it. jesus said it will be like never before, and never after.. And it is worldwide in scope. So europe would be involved..
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,exactly the captivity in Babylon was troublesome to Jacob
Non like it. Do you understand what that means? what babylon did pailed in comparison to what Rome did. and you want me to believe it was babylon?? sorry bro. I think your reading to much into it (or actually not enough)
Why did you skip the passage? But he will be saved out of it.. who is the he whihc he spoke of? is it not jacob??
yep. until 70 ad. when something which made what babylon did look like a piknic.. Again, there shall be NONE LIKE IT.. do you not know what this means?
Again, you skipped the passage.. I will break the bonds, and foregners shall no more enslave them.. Media persial enslaved them, even when they returned. Greece ensslaved them, even when they returned, as did rome, until they completely destroyed them. they are enslaved even yet today, I am not adding anything, I am taking it in context..
lol.. Sorry, they did not enslave them evern before they were returned. media persia destroyed them, and enslaved Isreal. isreal has been enslaved since babylon took them because of their sin,, and they have been enslaved ever since.
again, you ignored the passage. The passage says clearly they will serve their God. or gentiles.
As I said, they will serve god, and not the gentiles who enslaved them
yet is says that very thing.. again you skipped the passage.
No it did not.
they were still enslaved.
They still had to fear their enemies
They never lived in peace or quite. then never even was able to rule themselves. they had puppet kings
God was not with them.. for they were still in sin..
you have to twist this so far to get it to be fulfilled in 536 bc.. Even Daniels prophesy said it was not and end of sin.. for this was not even the start of the 70 weeks of daniel.. so how can you say this happened before the 70- weeks?
it is not> says who?? Abiding my friend.. I am sorry, but to say it is not applicable makes no sense. jeremiah 30 as a WHOLE is about this time of jacobs trouble. we just ignore it?
Jacobs trouble was the babylonian captivity we Just read it in Jeremiah and you still dont get it? amazing but am i doing better work EG? i like the cookies with the big chocolate chunks ty
i will give you the cookies. But study more my friend.. I posted my response, then followed with the passage, You answered my responses before looking at the passage which supported my basis.. thus you skipped my reasoning..
A
Nice try you got creamed. Not a thing to support you view came out of any of Jer 30 your confidence here came from all those ideas you kept inserting on the text/
One more thing it didnt pass my notice either that you didnt respond on the EG assertions that i disproved that you were confident in....like possess means "own" and the like. But im used to it. Id do this more if i wasnt so lazy. I think this case is closed.
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One more thing it didnt pass my notice either that you didnt respond on the EG assertions that i disproved that you were confident in....like possess means "own" and the like. But im used to it. Id do this more if i wasnt so lazy. I think this case is closed.
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B
I just noticed this thread... as I posted in Red33 which God deleted. I don't have time to read 135 posts so here it goes....
If Christians are Israel wouldn't Jesus Be incestuous with his Fathers wife??? The Nation Israel is portrayed as the WIFE of God the Father. God repeatedly states the Marriage is an EVERLASTING covenant. Christ Is the SON born of this MARRIAGE... be is betrothed to his BRIDE... which is the CHURCH. THIS is the NEW COVENENT. God is not a man that he should Lie... there are two covenants... Two Marriages... two distinct subjects... Christians and ISrael.
If Christians are Israel wouldn't Jesus Be incestuous with his Fathers wife??? The Nation Israel is portrayed as the WIFE of God the Father. God repeatedly states the Marriage is an EVERLASTING covenant. Christ Is the SON born of this MARRIAGE... be is betrothed to his BRIDE... which is the CHURCH. THIS is the NEW COVENENT. God is not a man that he should Lie... there are two covenants... Two Marriages... two distinct subjects... Christians and ISrael.
E
lol. I will take the freindly slam as a good friend.. But I think I supported my view quite well. In fact, as I showed, The things you responded with do not even make sense.
One more thing it didnt pass my notice either that you didnt respond on the EG assertions that i disproved that you were confident in....like possess means "own" and the like. But im used to it. Id do this more if i wasnt so lazy. I think this case is closed.
I just went back and looked. I did not see anything where you responded to the fact that posses does not mean own. can you show it to me? I will be glad to look. And the case is not closed. It will not get closed until you figure out why there are swo many inconsistancies with your interpretations, and what is actually said in jer 30
A
Two covenants huh? Hebrews doesnt agree neither do quite a few other scriptures,
Israel came through Christ which is what was always intended since gen3. The old
covenant was abolished...faded away Heb 8:7-13
The church is Israel only in the light of being grafted in. The church didnt replace Israel
the Church joined Israel, is Israel.. Eph 2:11-22 made up of "true" Israelites Rom 9:6-9 and gentiles
one man. The commonwealth of Israel.
Israel came through Christ which is what was always intended since gen3. The old
covenant was abolished...faded away Heb 8:7-13
The church is Israel only in the light of being grafted in. The church didnt replace Israel
the Church joined Israel, is Israel.. Eph 2:11-22 made up of "true" Israelites Rom 9:6-9 and gentiles
one man. The commonwealth of Israel.
'Israel' is the bride of God.
Israel is mankind in the state of purity. The bride must be pure and undefiled before God. Hence 'none can see his face and live'.
After death we are made as immortal 'beings of the heavens'. Pure. Cleansed in fire and spirit. We suffer loss and what remains is pure to God.
Jesus' 'bride' is not 'the church' per se (as a building). But rather it is the relationship between man and God. 'Where 2 or more are, there I will be also'.
It is not a literal bride. it is symbolic of the relationship, the commitment, between bride and groom. An unbreakable bond.
Also, Paul tells us that after death we are beyond marriage of man and woman.
So then marriage is a word use to show a bond. not a sexual one. But just a bond. Unbreakable. A commitment.
God has committed us to Him. And we will commit ourselves to God, albeit in the end.
Jesus fixed our 'relationship/bond with God', when he died for our sins.
If you can imagine humanity as a wayward wife. And God sends his only son to pay off all the wayward wife's other hudband's that she has made for herself. Just so that God can have her back.
That's kind of what the picture looks like.
The marriage aspect of God and man is hard to wrap the head around. I'm still trying to learn it.
Israel is mankind in the state of purity. The bride must be pure and undefiled before God. Hence 'none can see his face and live'.
After death we are made as immortal 'beings of the heavens'. Pure. Cleansed in fire and spirit. We suffer loss and what remains is pure to God.
Jesus' 'bride' is not 'the church' per se (as a building). But rather it is the relationship between man and God. 'Where 2 or more are, there I will be also'.
It is not a literal bride. it is symbolic of the relationship, the commitment, between bride and groom. An unbreakable bond.
Also, Paul tells us that after death we are beyond marriage of man and woman.
So then marriage is a word use to show a bond. not a sexual one. But just a bond. Unbreakable. A commitment.
God has committed us to Him. And we will commit ourselves to God, albeit in the end.
Jesus fixed our 'relationship/bond with God', when he died for our sins.
If you can imagine humanity as a wayward wife. And God sends his only son to pay off all the wayward wife's other hudband's that she has made for herself. Just so that God can have her back.
That's kind of what the picture looks like.
The marriage aspect of God and man is hard to wrap the head around. I'm still trying to learn it.