Closing the Gap in Dispensationalism

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Mar 28, 2016
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I don't think hardly anyone denies that the gifts of the Spirit are not in effect.

What they are talking about specifically is miraculous sign gifts, and their position is that they were associated with the apostles.

Whether I agree with them or not, I don't find the antics or practices I've heard about as credible. The continuationist camp lacks little credibility with me.

Anyways, I wouldn't label myself as a cessationist, and I wouldn't label myself as a continuationist. It's more of a credibility issue of the claimants that I would question.

Also, there is nothing in Scripture to limit God's sovereign right to cease a gift during a particular time period, or to revive it again in a particular time period. Nothing I know, anyways.
The person of the apostles has nothing to do with the signs. When men did see what the apostles did they made the apostles into gods in the likeness of men.

The gifts are unseen (spiritual ) .No such thing as the doctrine of "sign gifts". The two words, sign and gift are not used together in that way .

There are signs used as metaphors that follow after the gift of hearing of faith. . the result believing God. Some have literalized the signified understanding and faced death by poison or serpents. the same that make a sound fall backward in order to mock God and keep the oral tradition.

The gift is the kind of serpents as lying spirits that are cast out by the new tongues. . the gospel.

Great parable below. Parable of the "New Tongue" the power of God unto salvation.

Mark 16:16-18 King James Version (KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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I'm not sure why you think I don't subscribe to Reformed doctrine.

In essence, I do believe Reformed doctrine except for a few minor points. For instance, some of them are rabid Sabbatarians and I am not. I believe the Sabbath was one of the two signs of the Mosaic Covenant, the other being physical circumcision.

However, I do believe it is appropriate to observe the LORDS's Day. I just don't call it the Sabbath, nor do I think that it is binding in the same sense as the Sabbath under the Mosaic Covenant.

I have studied the Sabbath in more detail than most of them, though, because I was in a Judaizer cult called the Armstrongites for years.

I'm sure your study list keeps you busy, especially if you're watching Leighton Flowers videos learning how to defend free willer theology against "Calvinists".

I think I've said this, but on the order of things, I view union with Christ and identity in Him to be one of the most valuable studies. It is amazing how many free-willers cannot articulate this position. The same is true about dispensationalists. I believe if they had a deep understanding of this teaching, it would go a long way in addressing both issues, in fact.

I don't know how someone could continue to be a dispensationalist if they understand union with Christ and identity in Him, except for the fact that it's been ingrained in their brains by their dispensationalist teachers.
I like to think of it as the living reforming doctrine. Daily restoring
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I don't think hardly anyone denies that the gifts of the Spirit are not in effect.
I've seen many double negatives, but very few triple negatives. Frankly, whatever you're saying here is obscured by your misuse of language.

The continuationist camp lacks little credibility with me.
So it has much credibility? Again... double negative.

Also, there is nothing in Scripture to limit God's sovereign right to cease a gift during a particular time period, or to revive it again in a particular time period. Nothing I know, anyways.
Except that God does not violate His word.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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The person of the apostles has nothing to do with the signs.
2 Corinthians 12:12 disagrees with you.

There are signs used as metaphors that follow after the gift of hearing of faith. . the result believing God. Some have literalized the signified understanding and faced death by poison or serpents. the same that make a sound fall backward in order to mock God and keep the oral tradition.
You keep mocking what you don't understand.

Great parable below. Parable of the "New Tongue" the power of God unto salvation.

Mark 16:16-18 King James Version (KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
It's not a parable.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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The gifts are unseen (spiritual ) .No such thing as the doctrine of "sign gifts". The two words, sign and gift are not used together in that way .
The words don't need to be used together in Scripture for them to be true. For example, Jesus is both the Son of Man and the Son of God, but those two terms aren't used together.

"Sign gifts" is simply a shorthand was of talking about manifestations of the Holy Spirit that are both gifts and signs. Tongues and prophecy are in this category, because they are both called gifts (1 Corinthians 12) and signs (1 Corinthians 14).
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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Your last remark is inflammatory.

Reformed people are not "followers of John Calvin". In fact, I have read very little about John Calvin. I saw Reformed theology in Scripture prior to ever hearing his name.

In fact, it was my free willer pastor who told me "that's Calvinism" when I described what I was seeing in Scripture related to predestination.

Then he proceeded to tell me about Michael Servetus and that whole affair.

In a subsequent meeting, I asked about John Wesley and the morality of his failure to allow his former girlfriend to take communion, which in essence meant that her salvation was in question. :)

As I have said, the view of free-willers is that a fallen man, with a heart of stone, can dredge up faith and repentance in order to respond to God. Then, and only then, does he receive a heart of flesh.

This is logically incoherent because the man with a heart of stone hates God and his law (Rom 8:11, Jer 17:9-10) and will not respond to God without a change of heart. God gives the man a heart of flesh which produces faith and repentance as a fruit.

One view doesn't give glory to God, and the other does.

One view leads to the free willer Sunday School teacher patting little Johnny on the head for being gracious enough to allow Jesus into his heart, and the other view leads to the Reformed Sunday School teacher glorifying God for his sovereign act of salvation.
Oh..by the way...with the free willer Sunday School teacher scenario, there's another person who receives glory besides God...the Sunday School teacher, parent, friend, etcetera, who persuaded the saved person to accept Christ.

So, there is a glory-hog fest quite often in free-willer circles when someone comes to faith. Rather than God being glorified, it is the sinner himself, or the person who persuaded him to accept Christ.

And, I HAVE heard brag-fests from free-willers in this regard. One prisoner in the jail allegedly became a believer. Both him and the charismatic chaplain were bragging about how many people he led to Christ afterwards.

What happened to him? He went to prison and my understanding from the chaplain is that he rejected Christ at some point after leaving jail on bail and going to prison. He continued living with his girlfriend until he went to prison.

Another brag-fest I remember is my own situation. I was regenerated within about 4 months after beginning to study the Bible. The pastor's wife bragged about how quickly I was baptized, compared to most other individuals. She was attributing my progress to ME rather than God.

Additionally, guys like Charles Finney were well known braggarts about their evangelistic prowess..the problem is that many of his alleged converts parted ways with their profession of faith.

In the Reformed church, we are very careful to distinguish between secondary causes such as a person who may have led us to Christ, and God himself. While we may acknowledge the contribution of the person who led us to Christ, we realize regeneration is GOD'S WORK.

So, God would be glorified upon the salvation of any Reformed person. We may respect the efforts of the evangelist, but God's glory is never overshadowed by any knowledgeable Reformed person.

I challenge free-willers to think about these things when someone has accepted Christ in their organizations. Who is getting the glory? God? the believer? the evangelist?

I think the answer to this question could reveal idolatry.
 

Diakonos

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What they are talking about specifically is miraculous sign gifts, and their position is that they were associated with the apostles.
I understand that the apostolic office ceased (and its association with sign gifts...it was a way of authenticating their apostleship).
But other than that, do you deny the possibility of any spiritual gift? It sounds like you are open to the possibility, but you just are cautious and take everything case-by-case. That is understandable. I am somewhat the same. I don't make a big deal about miracles, but I have seen them, experienced them and exercised them. So I'm definitely not a Pentecostal, but I pray for healing and see it happen from time-to-time. I have been healed of stomach issues, my best friend was healed of a cavity when I prayed for him. I prayed for a women in Bolivia and saw her missing finger re-grow, it was amazing! And that, I think should be our response to the supernatural....amazement and awe for our great God and Savior.
there is nothing in Scripture to limit God's sovereign right to cease a gift during a particular time period, or to revive it again in a particular time period
Amen to that, Brother!
“for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29)
 

Diakonos

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Your last remark is inflammatory
Post #312?
I saw Reformed theology in Scripture prior to ever hearing his name.
Me too. Most of reformed doctrine is sound, that's why I still listen to reformed teachers.
Scripture related to predestination
(Just as a side note, I wanted you to know that) I believe in "predestination according to foreknowledge" (Rom 8:29)
One view doesn't give glory to God, and the other does
God is the Savior in both, with redemptive love. Like I said before, I don't disagree with Calvinism because " I don't like it", I just don't see that theology as completely consistent with the Word. Sometimes Calvinists say things that raise a red flag, and I consult with the Word to see if these things be true. In most cases I find them to be sound.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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Post #312?

Me too. Most of reformed doctrine is sound, that's why I still listen to reformed teachers.

(Just as a side note, I wanted you to know that) I believe in "predestination according to foreknowledge" (Rom 8:29)

God is the Savior in both, with redemptive love. Like I said before, I don't disagree with Calvinism because " I don't like it", I just don't see that theology as completely consistent with the Word. Sometimes Calvinists say things that raise a red flag, and I consult with the Word to see if these things be true. In most cases I find them to be sound.
Regarding foreknowledge, the word basically means "fore-loved".

It does not mean to have advance knowledge of one's decision.

I could prove this with many texts, but perhaps you know them.

For instance, Jeremiah 1:5.

Additionally, Romans 9-11 uses the same concept in regards to Israel.

The common argument of free-willers is that foreknowledge means simple advance knowledge of the person's decision, which in essence means God elects no one, but the person elects themselves.

Free-willers can attempt to explain it away through re-defining "foreknowledge", but in essence what they are saying is, I choose myself.
 

Diakonos

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I'm not sure why you think I don't subscribe to Reformed doctrine
There may have been a misunderstanding along the way. I am active in several threads, sometimes I forget to respond to a post or I'll read one and think its another member. I have dyslexia (thank God for spell check).
However, I do believe it is appropriate to observe the LORDS's Day. I just don't call it the Sabbath, nor do I think that it is binding in the same sense as the Sabbath under the Mosaic Covenant.
Well said.
The Sabbath is a pre-Law principle. In other words (like tithing), it existed before the Law and independent of the Law. But it was configured to be done a certain way for Israel, for a time. That time is no more, therefore that configuration is no longer in play (or commanded)....But it is still a way to honor God, and brings spiritual benefits to believers. "One regards one day above the rest, another regards each day alike. Let each one be convinced in his own mind" (i.e. God doesn't want anyone to violate their conscience) Rom 14:5
Never heard of him.
union with Christ and identity in Him
This is truly my joy and delight. Knowing that I have become one spirit with God, his darling one, the Bride of He who has indestructible life....in whose right hand are pleasures forevermore. "The secret of the Lord is for those who fear Him, and He will make them know His covenant." (Psalm 25:14). Here I stand in the blood of Christ...He has washed every blemish.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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Where do you get that from?
Lucky you :)

I just created a post on this issue, due to your remarks on the previous post.

This describes the typical Reformed position on "foreknowledge".

This isn't exhaustive but is meant to introduce the topic for discussion on the other thread.

Some claim that the word "foreknowledge", used in Romans 8:28-30, refers to events, rather than persons. In their view, God simply "foreknows" the persons' faith decision, and bases his election on this foreknowledge of their decision.

Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(ESV Strong's)


Notice, though, that the Scripture says that God foreknew people, not events ("those whom he foreknew"). Therefore, their view that foreknowledge means simple advanced knowledge of their faith decision is not correct. The sentence does not describe a decision that was foreknown, but a person who was foreknown.

God certainly knows all events in advance, but this is not the sense in which which this verse is using "foreknowledge".

God foreknows people, in the context of this verse.

I propose that foreknowledge, in this context, implies an intimate, distinguishing love that God has for the elect individual, which is different than the love he has for the non-elect. It is not describing simple foreknowledge of an event.

As an example, a man in a healthy marital relationship loves his wife in a distinct manner than he loves other women.

God loves the elect, in advance of the elect knowing Him, in a distinguishing manner, prior to salvation. In this manner, God foreknows all the elect.

"Knowledge" in Scripture often refers to relationship knowledge. For instance, the intimate sex act is referred to repetitively in Scripture as "knowing". Adam knew his wife Eve, and children were a result of this intimate knowledge. In the same manner, God loves with a distinguishing love those who are elect. We should not be surprised by this usage in the context of election.

Contextually, Paul uses this concept of foreknowledge in the next three chapters. Therefore, context indicates that this view is correct.

For example, this section teaches that before Jacob and Esau were born, God "hated" Esau and "loved" Jacob. So, before either knew Him, they had a relationship, with God, defined by God hating Esau and loving Jacob. It was not about their merits, as the verses indicate, but solely based on God's love for Jacob prior to his existence. He "fore-loved" Jacob and "fore-hated" Esau before either were born.

Romans 9:11-13 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (ESV Strong's)

He also discusses how the nation of Israel was "foreknown" by God and has not been forsaken, in the same context:

Romans 11:2 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? (ESV Strong's)

He is not talking about simple foreknowledge of a decision, but he is talking about foreknowledge of persons. God has a special affection for Israel, which was not merited by their behavior, as they rejected Him.

The same is true concerning Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
(ESV Strong's)

God knows his elect before they are born, and he loves them with a distinguishing love. Their relationship is defined by him prior to their existence. The same is true of the elect.

Therefore biblical foreknowledge, in the context of election, is better translated "fore-loving".

As I indicated, pronouns indicate the personal nature of this foreknowing. It is not a matter of foreknowing events, but foreknowing people.

And he foreknows (foreloves) people, as the pronouns used in this section indicate ("whom he foreknew"). It does not use the phrase "what he foreknew", which would be appropriate if he simply foreknew the events.

Make no mistake. He does know the events of the future in detail. In fact, he shapes history. But this is not biblical foreknowledge in the context of salvation.

This verse describes this event-based type of "foreknowledge":

Isaiah 46:9-10 9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ (ESV Strong's)

Some might say, your view of foreknowledge is not correct, because God is not a respecter of persons. My response is that God is not a respecter of persons, in the sense that Jews and Gentiles are on equal standing with him. However, God definitely has a distinguishing love for his elect, and this is not related to some personal merit that they have. In fact, he chooses some of the poorest specimens to call into a relationship with Him.


1 Corinthians 1:26-31 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (ESV Strong's)

Anyways, this is the topic for discussion. Does foreknowledge, in the context of Romans 8:28-30, imply fore-loving individuals, or does it imply simple foreknowledge of events?
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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There may have been a misunderstanding along the way. I am active in several threads, sometimes I forget to respond to a post or I'll read one and think its another member. I have dyslexia (thank God for spell check).

Well said.
The Sabbath is a pre-Law principle. In other words (like tithing), it existed before the Law and independent of the Law. But it was configured to be done a certain way for Israel, for a time. That time is no more, therefore that configuration is no longer in play (or commanded)....But it is still a way to honor God, and brings spiritual benefits to believers. "One regards one day above the rest, another regards each day alike. Let each one be convinced in his own mind" (i.e. God doesn't want anyone to violate their conscience) Rom 14:5

Never heard of him.

This is truly my joy and delight. Knowing that I have become one spirit with God, his darling one, the Bride of He who has indestructible life....in whose right hand are pleasures forevermore. "The secret of the Lord is for those who fear Him, and He will make them know His covenant." (Psalm 25:14). Here I stand in the blood of Christ...He has washed every blemish.
I would agree with your remarks on the LORD's Day.

I don't call the Lord's Day the Sabbath, though. I relate the Sabbath to ancient Israel as a covenant requirement, just like physical circumcision.

Observing the Lord's day is perfectly appropriate, as it is the day of the resurrection, and Christians under the New Covenant have entered into the new creation. The eighth day is representative of the beginning of a new week, which is appropriate for entering into the new creation. It has not been fully consummated yet, awaiting the return of Christ, but believers have still entered into a new creation.
 

Diakonos

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Jan 19, 2019
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I just created a post on this issue, due to your remarks on the previous post.

This describes the typical Reformed position on "foreknowledge".

This isn't exhaustive but is meant to introduce the topic for discussion on the other thread.
If I have any comments, I will post on the new thread so we don't get more off topic here
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
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434
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Lucky you :)

I just created a post on this issue, due to your remarks on the previous post.

This describes the typical Reformed position on "foreknowledge".

This isn't exhaustive but is meant to introduce the topic for discussion on the other thread.

Some claim that the word "foreknowledge", used in Romans 8:28-30, refers to events, rather than persons. In their view, God simply "foreknows" the persons' faith decision, and bases his election on this foreknowledge of their decision.

Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(ESV Strong's)


Notice, though, that the Scripture says that God foreknew people, not events ("those whom he foreknew"). Therefore, their view that foreknowledge means simple advanced knowledge of their faith decision is not correct. The sentence does not describe a decision that was foreknown, but a person who was foreknown.

God certainly knows all events in advance, but this is not the sense in which which this verse is using "foreknowledge".

God foreknows people, in the context of this verse.

I propose that foreknowledge, in this context, implies an intimate, distinguishing love that God has for the elect individual, which is different than the love he has for the non-elect. It is not describing simple foreknowledge of an event.

As an example, a man in a healthy marital relationship loves his wife in a distinct manner than he loves other women.

God loves the elect, in advance of the elect knowing Him, in a distinguishing manner, prior to salvation. In this manner, God foreknows all the elect.

"Knowledge" in Scripture often refers to relationship knowledge. For instance, the intimate sex act is referred to repetitively in Scripture as "knowing". Adam knew his wife Eve, and children were a result of this intimate knowledge. In the same manner, God loves with a distinguishing love those who are elect. We should not be surprised by this usage in the context of election.

Contextually, Paul uses this concept of foreknowledge in the next three chapters. Therefore, context indicates that this view is correct.

For example, this section teaches that before Jacob and Esau were born, God "hated" Esau and "loved" Jacob. So, before either knew Him, they had a relationship, with God, defined by God hating Esau and loving Jacob. It was not about their merits, as the verses indicate, but solely based on God's love for Jacob prior to his existence. He "fore-loved" Jacob and "fore-hated" Esau before either were born.

Romans 9:11-13 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (ESV Strong's)

He also discusses how the nation of Israel was "foreknown" by God and has not been forsaken, in the same context:

Romans 11:2 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? (ESV Strong's)

He is not talking about simple foreknowledge of a decision, but he is talking about foreknowledge of persons. God has a special affection for Israel, which was not merited by their behavior, as they rejected Him.

The same is true concerning Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
(ESV Strong's)

God knows his elect before they are born, and he loves them with a distinguishing love. Their relationship is defined by him prior to their existence. The same is true of the elect.

Therefore biblical foreknowledge, in the context of election, is better translated "fore-loving".

As I indicated, pronouns indicate the personal nature of this foreknowing. It is not a matter of foreknowing events, but foreknowing people.

And he foreknows (foreloves) people, as the pronouns used in this section indicate ("whom he foreknew"). It does not use the phrase "what he foreknew", which would be appropriate if he simply foreknew the events.

Make no mistake. He does know the events of the future in detail. In fact, he shapes history. But this is not biblical foreknowledge in the context of salvation.

This verse describes this event-based type of "foreknowledge":

Isaiah 46:9-10 9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ (ESV Strong's)

Some might say, your view of foreknowledge is not correct, because God is not a respecter of persons. My response is that God is not a respecter of persons, in the sense that Jews and Gentiles are on equal standing with him. However, God definitely has a distinguishing love for his elect, and this is not related to some personal merit that they have. In fact, he chooses some of the poorest specimens to call into a relationship with Him.


1 Corinthians 1:26-31 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (ESV Strong's)

Anyways, this is the topic for discussion. Does foreknowledge, in the context of Romans 8:28-30, imply fore-loving individuals, or does it imply simple foreknowledge of events?
On this forum I will simply respond with:

"God's choice of us logically follow ours and our choice of Him chronologically follows His." i.e. Before the foundation of the world, God chose those who would free chose Him. He set the universe in motion, knowing every event and choice. He wrote those people's names down in the lamb's book of life ahead of time."

I can respond in more detail in the other forum. For this thread, that is my answer.
 

Blik

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Dec 6, 2016
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I think all of this speculation is going down the wrong path. I think the dispensation we are in has to do with the new covenant and that covenant has been twisted from the actual covenant. I think covenants has to do with the communication we have with the Lord. That communication was by means of what people were told to do. Cut flesh as a symbol of belonging to God. Eat no food from garbage, and the food of the stomach was not the issue it was a symbol of the food for the mind. They thought the heart contained the mind.

The new covenant had to do with the Holy Spirit given to all as a means of communication. People have twisted it. They define obsolete as cancelled. The word cancel does not define obsolete. It is obsolete to communicate with the Lord through circumcision and diet because we have the Holy Spirit to communicate. God remains the same God with no changes in His ways or character, God's communication with us changed by not God himself.

Man has accepted the ways of Ghosticism as a teaching of the new covenant. They said the only the spiritual is real.. We say that only the acceptance of Christ is real. The Lord says we are given joy, the earth, family, beautiful land, food---many physical things and they are good. Because God communicates with us in the spirit through the Holy Ghost does not eliminate all the good of the physical.

We have used the new dispensation of the new covenant to take on Ghostism and tossed out all we can put a "physical" label on. We are misusing this dispensation.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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On this forum I will simply respond with:

"God's choice of us logically follow ours and our choice of Him chronologically follows His." i.e. Before the foundation of the world, God chose those who would free chose Him. He set the universe in motion, knowing every event and choice. He wrote those people's names down in the lamb's book of life ahead of time."

I can respond in more detail in the other forum. For this thread, that is my answer.
The idea of "God's choice of us logically follow ours? Follows what of ours? ? Or new spiritually follows His own Spirit seeing he is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul pleases. After all he is the one that can give spirit life to the corrupted mankind .

But
he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me :13-16

He mentions the workings of the good pleasure of his will that he performs in us with us . Some murmur as if God would forget the good works we offer towards his name.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Do all things without murmurings and disputings Philipians 2 :13-14

We love him because he first loved us. Out of all the sinners in the world in mercy and grace he chose us giving us ears to hear. And therefore in hearing the gospel a willing new heart to do His pleasure . Why murmur and falsely boast as if it was not freely received by the hand of God? No man of his own volition can seek and therefore understand how to please Him .

Christ as the first born performed the works of pleasing the father .Three days and nights in the corrupted heart of the earth. (suffering) The light of the gospel brought His understanding, a mystery hid from the nations in the time past revealed in the last days .the days we are in. It was revealed at Pentecost. The promised time of reformation had come. A time like never before or ever again

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
 
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Where did that come from ?

So then we move him to both will and do our good pleasure making mankind or the clay one mind ? Making his understanding mindless? That would appear to turn things upside down as inspired earthly? The Jews were used to represent mankind in that way before the 1st century reformation. .

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Acts 14 reveals the results of turning things upside down, robbing God of his glory. Accrediting the temporal corrupted things seen with the unseen work of the gospel .

When the unbelievers who had no faith that could please God saw the apostles did they turned things upside down down earthly inspired of the devil and said. . The gods are coming in the likeness of men . Blasphemy , violating the 1st commandment.

In that way he is the cause and the effect. The just and the justifier .He will not share that glory of Him and the Father with corrupted flesh and blood.

Believe without murmuring would seem to be the instruction in Philippians 2 . Replace it with rejoicing as a better thing that acompanies salvation. He promises us he will not forget the good works we can offer towards His name with our new tongues. . .the gospel