Come Let Us Reason Together

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
God is not going to change and bring Himself down to man's level to be reconciled

OMGosh.

the blasphemy just never ends.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Scott....you really should just stop for a time. stop posting. you have no idea.

you're so wrong on every level.

the stuff you've said and done is out there forever.
fortunately for us when we CONFESS OUR SINS He is faithful to forgive.
go do it, man. don't delay.

just be quiet. or something.
i am starting to feel sorry for you now.
 
Last edited:
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
Stop already....Skinski... just STOP!
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
OMGosh.

the blasphemy just never ends.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Scott....you really should just stop for a time. stop posting. you have no idea.

you're so wrong on every level.

the stuff you've said and done is out there forever.
fortunately for us when we CONFESS OUR SINS He is faithful to forgive.
go do it, man. don't delay.

just be quiet. or something.
i am starting to feel sorry for you now.
The purpose of reconciliation is to bring men up to God's holiness, it is not to cloak a heart that remains filthy with a covering by which God PRETENDS that the filthiness is holiness. That is what I mean, not what you are implying I mean and I think you know that.

The problem with the church system is very simple.

The death of Jesus Christ is presented as a "covering" for "ongoing" rebellion. In the context of actual salvation the death of Christ on the cross is presented as a provisional cleansing ONLY. Thus it is taught that a sinner is identified as being "in Christ" while they REMAIN in a filthy state.

This if a Christian is still walking in accordance to the lusts of the flesh it is taught that they have an "identity problem" so to speak, not a sin problem. Thus they are "still saved" (due to the legal transaction) but in actuality they are just not "living up to" that salvation.

This is why Christian programs, books, dvd's focus on "who you are in Christ" and approach the "lack of holiness" in an advisory fashion in the context that obedience simply brings the most benefits. In other words obeying God is not mandatory, rather it is simply "preferential."

This is why the pastors will respond with an answer that categorically states that a child molester CAN STILL BE ENGAGED in the act of child molestation and STILL BE SAVED AT THE SAME TIME. There is a disconnect between MANIFEST RIGHTEOUSNESS and SALVATION.

This theological system DENIES any teaching which contends for the fact that a Christian has in fact crucified the lusts of the flesh. It must deny it because salvation is merely forensic and thus CANNOT BE ATTACHED to any manifest conduct whatsoever.

This is why verses like 1Joh 1:8 are so heavily focused on out of the first epistle of John at the EXCLUSION of everything else John wrote.

Thus 1Jh 3:7 MUST BE IGNORED under this theology because "righteousness" has NOTHING tto do with DOING. Instead the theological system teaches that righteousness is FORENSICALLY APPLIED instead of ACTUALLY MANIFESTED.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jon 3:8 must also, by necessity, be ignored, for it is taught that a Christian sins all the time and if they say "they have no sin" then they are liars and the truth is not in them.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Joh 1:8 by necessity is disconnected from 1Jn 1:7 which speaks of WALKING in the light. If a pastor believes that a child molester can be engaged in molesting children and at the same time be cleansed of the ongoing sin then he must believe that the "walk in the light" is forensically applied.

This is how the false teachers get around every single scripture which specifically speaks of conduct as it relates to the Christian walk. They'll teach that "in Christ" one is walking in the light because "Jesus did it in your place and God transferred what Jesus did to your record." Thus God does not see the child molester engaging in his sin, rather God sees the righteousness of Jesus. The cloak covers the filthiness in other words.

Multitudes are going to stand before God rejected because they bought into this lie which taught them that departing from iniquity was not connected to their salvation. They did not believe that their conduct is a manifest expression of who they really are a child of.

No person who lives according to the lusts of their flesh in disobedience to God, whether it be the sick child molester or the tame idolator who remains hooked on worldly entertainements is going to enter the kingdom. Only those who DO the will of the Father who is in heaven.

MANY will be rejected by Jesus Christ because they were actively engaged in the iniquity which they refused to depart from.

This is why Jesus spoke of those who build their house upon the rock versus those who build their house on the sand.

Those who build their house upon the rock are those who hear what Jesus teaches and DO IT.

Those who build their house on the sand are those who hear what Jesus teaches and DO NOT DO IT.

One house will stand on the day of judgement while the other will fall and great will be its fall.



It is a very simple message. We are to lay down "self" and "yield" to God. God has called all men unto Himself but whether we choose to yield or not is up to us. The road to life is a very narrow road fraught with obstacles, yet we can overcome all these obstacles through Jesus Christ.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
Grandpa,

Sure. The only thing wrong with your gospel is you think it is mens work that brought them to "yield". You misunderstand me. I have never claimed anything close to what you say here.

One cannot yield unless they have something to "yield to" and that is God. Jesus Christ is the light that lights every man that comes into the world and the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Men are simply "responders" not initiators.



It is by my own experience that I know I didn't just decide to submit to the will of God. I was brought to the place, by the Lord, where I wanted His Will for my life so badly that the thought of disobedience would be entirely foreign. God brings us to this place by working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Yet men still CHOOSE whether to yield to that influence or reject it.


There must be a point where people decide to start following the Lord and His Leading. Where this begins I don't know. What I do know, by my own experience, is that His Leading us to Salvation and the works of Salvation are entirely His. All the credit and Glory goes to the Lord Jesus. The point occurs in repentance whereby the MIND CHANGES. Ascertaining the free moral agency of men DOES NOT INFRINGE on the glory of God, that is a logical fallacy. If free moral agency were not involved then that impinges on the character of God by redefining Him as "partial" when the Bible specifically says that God is no respector of persons.

Human beings are not robots subject to an internal computer program which in effect cancels our ability to choose. Being willing and obedient is wrought through conviction which leads to a genuine repentance.

The reason why it has nothing to do with your repentance or "godly sorrow" is that would be works and a way to boast in your own vain mind. You didn't decide to repent. The Lord led you to repentance. You didn't manufacture a godly sorrow. The Lord led you to it. You couldn't have managed it without Him. Who is denying the fact that God leads an individual to godly sorrow???? Certainly not me. My issue with the church system is that they teach that "ongoing willful sin" is covered and is disconnected from actual salvation. Why do people twist that issue into somehow "your teaching that you save yourself without God." Why?

In regards to repentance and godly sorrow the Bible SPECIFICALLY states that "godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation." 2Cor 7:11 SPECIFICALLY and CLEARLY illustrates the fruit of a godly sorrow.

2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

That verse above clearly depicts where the WILLINGNESS to serve God begins.



Why would I leave anything out? He leads us. It is His Work.
Yes, Jesus told us to do things. The Most important one being to come to Him and He will give you rest. The rest is in abiding (yielding) to Him instead of going our own way. it is not in God "doing it for you," rather, it is in "YOU DOING IT" through "yielding to the leading of God." Jesus did not teach that God's builds your house, Jesus said YOU BUILD IT but you built it according to God's blueprint and not your own.

Hence there are still WORKS in salvation. They are just not WORKS DONE APART from God. Being a DOER of the word IS A WORK. DOING = WORK. Faith IS a work and it works by love. Not to "merit" salvation as many falsely accuse, but because the "works of righteousness" are a manifestation of those who ARE truly saved. A good tree is known by its fruit.

In fact Peter taught we are to ADD TO OUR FAITH which by definition is ACTIVE DOING and not PASSIVE TRUST. We are to perfect holiness in the fear of God, yielding to Him as best we know how (by faith).


When the Bible speaks of "not of works" it is in the context of any work done apart from faith. It is not teaching DO NOTHING and wait for God to do it for you. That would make Jesus a LIAR because Jesus told people to DO IT. All the parables of Jesus are about the individual DOING. The parables speak of those who "don't do" and those who "do."

To think that your repentance will cause anything is what is fallacious. You are not the cause. The Lord Jesus is the cause. Repentance is mandatory for salvation. It is not complicated. If a sinner forsakes their rebellion and throws themselves at the mercy of God then God will raise them up to newness of life. Does repentance CAUSE God to do this? No. That is a fallacy. Repentance is simply a CONDITION, not a cause.

Repentance is a REQUIREMENT that God has set forth. God raises people up because HE CHOOSES TO DO SO. No-one can MAKE GOD raise them up. God is not obligated to do so. It is purely by His grace and mercy.


In order to deny...?? The Lord Jesus has said that without Him you can do nothing. The Lord Jesus has said no one is good but God. That's right. God is the source of righteousness. God sets the standard. Jesus is the light. Without God there is only darkness. All we could do without God would be to stumble around in the dark with no hope.

I think you are just mildly confused. Works of the Law bring you to Christ. Christ Leads. He Leads us into the works and He leads us into Salvation. He Leads us to ask for wisdom and understanding and discernment. The law illustrates a standard of right conduct but it is only OUTWARD. True righteousness, on the other hand, is rooted INWARDLY in a PURE HEART which MANIFESTS OUTWARDLY as right conduct.

The error of the Pharisees was that they sought their righteousness in the law APART from inward heart purity. Thus they saw a "set of rules" as an end in itself. This is legalism.

The modern church system has replaces the error of the Pharisees with another error. Instead of the error of legalism the church system teaches that righteousness is FORENSICALLY APPLIED to believer that CLOAKING their inward filthiness.


Both the Pharisees and the modern church system ignore HEART PURITY. Heart purity is completely denied because they teach that you are BORN A SINNER and WILL DIE A SINNER. They teach that the best righteousness you can ever hope to manifest is all FILTHY RAGS before God.

Satan has been able to come up with a theological system which has removed heart purity from the Gospel. The converts under this deception will DEFEND SIN every single time and will MOCK righteousness. They simple do not believe that a Christian can manifest true righteousness blamelessly from a pure heart.

They deny this...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

And they deny this...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The modern fallacies taught in the church system convolute the mind to such an extent that the plain rendering of Scripture does not make sense to these people. The above passages mean what they plainly state. Manifest conduct matters.


Free moral agency. That is a joke that is not funny. Left to our own free moral agency we would be like Sodom and Gomorrha. Free moral agency is simply the ability to CHOOSE. Adam FREELY CHOSE to eat the forbidden fruit. God nor nature FORCES men to sin. Men CHOOSE to sin. God is calling people to CHOOSE NOT TO through being broken godly sorrow and repentance. God empowers those who walk in His light to walk in purity unspotted from the world. Again, modern theology generally denies the possibility of heart purity.

We have to leave our will behind and ask for His will be done if we want victory in our lives. That's right. That is exactly what we must do. Yet not just "ask" but actually yield to His will when it is revealed to us.


You have no idea what you are talking about. The pharisees were the ones that thought they could work their way into the Kingdom of God through their own righteousness and holiness.

You know, just like you... You misunderstand me. The Pharisees sought righteousness in adherence to rules and regulations APART from heart purity. I do not teach any such thing.


The Gospel is not an abstract provisional cloak.
How would you know? The Bible does not teach the Gospel as an abstract provisional cloak.

The gospel is Jesus Christ and what He has already accomplished for us. We have faith in Him and what He did, and does in our lives. We follow Him, we abide in Him, and it is His work that saves us. It is His work that crucifies our flesh, He cleanses us from all our sins, we just follow the Good Shepherd.

2Jn_1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1Ti_6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;


If you were to honestly look at your works you would see that you fall woefully short of the bar that the Lord has set for us. And that is the point. You are supposed to see that you fail in your works. That is when you come to Him and ask for His Help. I don't deny that we go to God and ask for help. I am simply saying that you cannot be walking in rebellion to God and be saved at the same time. Being a slave to sin and a slave to righteousness are mutually exclusive.

Jesus Christ came to set us free from sin. Jesus did not come to set us free IN our sin. A Christian has ESCAPED the corruption that is in the world through lust, they are no longer in bondage to it. This is why Peter would say this...

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Is that what the church teaches? No! They teach you are the Romans wretch and are thus "carnal and sold under sin." They teach that you sin everyday in thought, word and deed because if you say you have no sin you are a liar (hence heart purity is heresy). The church system teaches you are cloaked in your defeat while the Bible teaches that you have MANIFEST victory in Christ.


There is no point in any of your works if you are not asking for His Help. If you are asking for His Help then the credit goes to Him, not you... Seems pretty simple Why on earth do you think that I deny that we are to ask God for help? You are reading that into my writings when I neither state nor imply any such thing.

Men having the innate ability to choose to sin or to choose not to sin and just because me have this ability DOES NOT imply that men do not need God. That is another fallacy. God has given ALL MEN the light of conscience freely. Men can CHOOSE to harden their heart and walk in rebellion or they can choose to yield to the light provided and do what is right.

When men continually choose to sin they become hardwired to sin and the result is bondage. Yet even in bondage the free will still exists and sin always remains a choice, the will is just subject to very powerful influences, both physical and spiritual.

The solution to the mess is repentance and a faith yielding to God through which God quickens and empowers an individual to walk in victory. Jesus sets us free indeed. Not partially free, not a little bit free, FREE INDEED.
 
Last edited:
K

kenisyes

Guest
Within an hour or so of the OP, I posted a 5 word question: "What if someone can't stop?" (Post #4). We are still seeing the response.

I sampled a few pages, to get an estimate. So far, I estimate that just over 100,000 words have been spent "reasoning together", in this thread. The New Testament contains just over 181,000 words. So the participants have posted something the size of just over half the NT in 7 days, in answer to my 5 word question.

I know a man who spent his whole life knocking on doors, just trying to get people saved. He averaged 2 people a day, or 500 a year. In 80 years of ministry, that means he got 40,000 people saved. Their names would take about 100,000 word to write.

I'm not sure "reasoning together" is a good use of time. That, by the way, is why I stopped posting the second day.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
Within an hour or so of the OP, I posted a 5 word question: "What if someone can't stop?" (Post #4). We are still seeing the response.

I sampled a few pages, to get an estimate. So far, I estimate that just over 100,000 words have been spent "reasoning together", in this thread. The New Testament contains just over 181,000 words. So the participants have posted something the size of just over half the NT in 7 days, in answer to my 5 word question.

I know a man who spent his whole life knocking on doors, just trying to get people saved. He averaged 2 people a day, or 500 a year. In 80 years of ministry, that means he got 40,000 people saved. Their names would take about 100,000 word to write.

I'm not sure "reasoning together" is a good use of time. That, by the way, is why I stopped posting the second day.
Yet when the issue of "stopping sin" was connected to the "crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires" you completely ignored it (like practically every other response in this thread) and focused on the literal definition of repentance (change of mind) and made the contention that an actual "change in conduct" is disconnected from said mind change.

Thus I do admit that "reasoning together" is not very effectual, especially when the basic principle of "being dead to the lusts of the flesh through dying with Christ in repentance" is tiptoed around and ignored.

It is kind of like discussing how to bake bread with someone who does not want acknowledge flour.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Within an hour or so of the OP, I posted a 5 word question: "What if someone can't stop?" (Post #4). We are still seeing the response.

I sampled a few pages, to get an estimate. So far, I estimate that just over 100,000 words have been spent "reasoning together", in this thread. The New Testament contains just over 181,000 words. So the participants have posted something the size of just over half the NT in 7 days, in answer to my 5 word question.

I know a man who spent his whole life knocking on doors, just trying to get people saved. He averaged 2 people a day, or 500 a year. In 80 years of ministry, that means he got 40,000 people saved. Their names would take about 100,000 word to write.

I'm not sure "reasoning together" is a good use of time. That, by the way, is why I stopped posting the second day.
what a BRILLIANT POST.

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Yet when the issue of "stopping sin" was connected to the "crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires" you completely ignored it (like practically every other response in this thread) and focused on the literal definition of repentance (change of mind) and made the contention that an actual "change in conduct" is disconnected from said mind change.

Thus I do admit that "reasoning together" is not very effectual, especially when the basic principle of "being dead to the lusts of the flesh through dying with Christ in repentance" is tiptoed around and ignored.

It is kind of like discussing how to bake bread with someone who does not want acknowledge flour.
oh purleeze.
ken has prolly hardly ever sinned his whole life.

he obviously cant match your performance, but show SOME respect for a godly man Skinski.

if you ever find another one. who knows. maybe itll just be you and DeSario and God in heaven.
perfection.
send us a postcard yer Majesty.
 
K

Kefa52

Guest
So...Let me get this straight. When we accept Christ we stop all sin, and we don't need the conviction or council of the Holy Spirit?
If you answer with more than a paragraph I won't read it. This isn't a hard question.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
You have no idea what you are talking about. The pharisees were the ones that thought they could work their way into the Kingdom of God through their own righteousness and holiness.

You know, just like you... You misunderstand me. The Pharisees sought righteousness in adherence to rules and regulations APART from heart purity. I do not teach any such thing.
I don't misunderstand. You've said that a person must attain their own heart purity before Salvation. The Pharisees also thought that the works they did caused their hearts to be pure and they would enter the Kingdom of God because of it.

How would you know? The Bible does not teach the Gospel as an abstract provisional cloak.
John 3:14-15
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
This is why Christian programs, books, dvd's focus on "who you are in Christ" and approach the "lack of holiness" in an advisory fashion in the context that obedience simply brings the most benefits. In other words obeying God is not mandatory, rather it is simply "preferential."
how long is it going to take you to figure out none of that stuff is truly CHRISTIAN?

you MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

get it?
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
I don't misunderstand. You've said that a person must attain their own heart purity before Salvation. The Pharisees also thought that the works they did caused their hearts to be pure and they would enter the Kingdom of God because of it.



John 3:14-15
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


The Pharisees thought righteousness was in strict (to the letter) outward adherence to the Mosaic Code without concern for love. Thus when the saw a man carrying his mat on the Sabbath it would disturb them, or when they saw evidence of a blind man being healed on the Sabbath their minds were immediately on the letter of the law as opposed to being awed at the power of Jesus Christ. They sought their righteousness in being a blood descendent of Abraham yet in their DEEDS they denied the FAITH OF ABRAHAM.

Heart purity is attained through obedience to the truth by the Spirit (yielding to the leading of God) as well as in conjunction with the blood of Jesus Christ being sprinkled to purify the conscience. It is not attained BEFORE salvation.

What is attained BEFORE salvation is the CESSATION OF REBELLION. In individual who ceases rebellion through being broken on the rock of Christ (through godly sorrow and repentance) is still dead in their trespasses and sin God clears them through raising them up and applying the blood.

Purity of heart only occurs when God raises one up to newness of life by His power. God manifests His power through the inner man. Heart purity is wrought through yielding to the leading of God whereby one adds to their faith, it is in this way that we partake in the divine nature (having ALREADY escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust).

This growth in purity IS NOT to be confused with the CESSATION OF REBELLION. They are two different things. A young child does not know much and needs to grow to maturity. So it is with a new born Christian.

The Prodigal Son was not born again in the pig pen. He recognised his sin and FORSOOK IT. HE left the pig pen to go back to the father. When the father restored him the son WAS NOT in a state of rebellion. The Prodigal Son was WILLING TO YIELD.

The new born Christian is no doubt ignorant in many areas and is very prone to error without guidance.

There is a purity wrought through repentance but it is a purity in the context of being cleansed of GUILE and SELF WORSHIP. Hence 2Cor 7:11 speaks of a CLEARING OF WRONGDOING where the previous wrong conduct has been forsaken and amended (restitution) as far as possible. Thus the repentant sinner is no longer TIED to their former conduct, it is HISTORY and not ONGOING. The no longer SERVE SIN because the BODY OF SIN was DESTROYED.

The old man is the man who walks in the lusts of the flesh serving SELF. That is the man that MUST DIE once and for all in repentance. The old man CANNOT be reformed. You don't chip away at the old man and gradually reform him. This gradual reformation of the old man is THE ERROR of the church system.

The old man DIES in the Baptism of Repentance where the axe is laid to the root once and for all where iniquity is CUT OUT. This is the circumcision which is done without hands and is absolutely ESSENTIAL for salvation to take place.

Here Paul writes of this so very clearly...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


Col 2:11 is BEING BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM. It is only through being buried with Jesus Christ that we can be RISEN with Jesus Christ.

Being SET FREE FROM SIN is connected to the BODY OF SIN being destroyed. The body of sin being destroyed is connected to NOT SERVING SIN.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Look at this....

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Whom YOU OBEY is connected to whose servant you are. If you are obeying the lusts of the flesh and sinning then you are a slave of sin. You cannot be a slave of sin and set free from sin at the same time.

It is very simple. This is why 1Pet 4:1-2 speaks of the "cessation of sin" as being connected to "not serving the lusts of men." James describes how "lusts draws men into sin" (Jam 1:14-14). This is why those who are Christ's HAVE crucified the flesh with its lusts (Gal 5:24). The flesh being crucified is the old man being crucified (Rom 6:6).

This is all SO CLEAR IN SCRIPTURE yet people REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT.

Look at all the responses in this thread. They all dance around the crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires and talk about anything but that. WHY?

Go sit in practically any church and they WILL NEVER speak on the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires. WHY?

This aspect of the Gospel is the ELEPHANT IN THE LIVING ROOM which the Church System IGNORES.

I have sat in on Bible studies and church sermons and while they will sometimes go through Romans 6 they will never CONNECT "being crucified" with the "passions and desires." If they do I have yet to hear it. They always teach being crucified with Christ as "PROVISIONALLY APPLIED" in the context of an "IDENTIFICATION" which has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR DEEDS.

Salvation in other words is PURELY taught as something abstract because of this they disconnect MANIFEST RIGHTEOUSNESS from BEING IN CHRIST.

It is PURE GNOSTICISM which has beguiled millions. The Gnostics taught that your soul could be pure and yet your deeds could still be filthy because the material world held the soul in bondage. It was only through death that the soul was released to be all that it was meant to be.

The Church System teaches the same thing under the guise of Christian Terminology. Instead of the soul being trapped by matter they teach Original Sin by which "the flesh" necessitates "sinful conduct" and therefore one will ALWAYS be a sinner while in the flesh.

The fundamental view of the constitution of man is in error and it totally redefines everything else which is built on top of it. This root error is the reason why professing Christian's THINK they can still sin (willful sin in yielding to the lusts of the flesh) and enter the kingdom. In their minds they cannot conceive how those lusts can be overcome COMPLETELY through Jesus Christ because they believe the FLESH ITSELF is the problem. The flesh is not the problem, YIELDING TO THE FLESH is the problem.

The problem is addressed through partaking in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We die to self and are raised up by God. The grain of wheat dies whereby it can grow and bear fruit. The old wine skin is thrown away so that a new wine skin can be put on and filled with new wine. The old man is put to death so the new man can be born and grow.

Yet people dance around this and keep to the oft, "your a Pharisee trying to save yourself by the law." Hogwash!
 
Last edited:

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
This growth in purity IS NOT to be confused with the CESSATION OF REBELLION. They are two different things. A young child does not know much and needs to grow to maturity. So it is with a new born Christian.
you're either PURE or NOT PURE.
if you have NO SIN, you're pure.
so why the need to grow in purity?
how pure can you get?

are you pure yet Skinski?

The new born Christian is no doubt ignorant in many areas and is very prone to error without guidance.
^ SIN ^?

yes or no?

what kind of ERROR?
be specific.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


Col 2:11 is BEING BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM. It is only through being buried with Jesus Christ that we can be RISEN with Jesus Christ.
have you been baptised Skinski?

what does it say happens when we OBEY THE GOSPEL AND ARE IMMEDIATELY BAPTIZED? < get back to me on this one please.

and what does this say?

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

and what's THIS:

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

who is doing the heart circumcision?
who is doing the raising?
any clue yet?

~

you have admitted here you don't understand A THING about the Atonement.

that should be a red light to you to go and learn about THAT.

NO CLUE how the Blood is applied. complete denial of 1 John < THE WHOLE PASSAGE IS ONE UNIT.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
So...Let me get this straight. When we accept Christ we stop all sin, and we don't need the conviction or council of the Holy Spirit?
If you answer with more than a paragraph I won't read it. This isn't a hard question.
I won't give a short answer because I like to be clear in reasoning out what I am saying. If that is not to your taste then don't read on.

The conviction and council of the Holy Spirit is always needed. What is error is thinking that you have to be "indwelt" BEFORE conviction can be wrought.

Also the Bible does not teach that you simply "accept Christ." You won't find the apostles in the book of Acts preaching "accept Jesus" to people. They preached repentance proven by deeds and faith in Jesus Christ.

The "cessation of sin" results from the body of sin being destroyed. The sin in question here is that of "willful transgression whereby one yields selfishly to the lusts of the flesh." The sin not in question here is falling short of the glory of God due to a bad judgment or ignorance.

James alluded to the Spirit of Christ within as the "engrafted" or "implanted" word. He taught that it must be "received" and also taught that one must lay aside "wrong conduct" in conjunction with receiving it. This is because one cannot reject something and receive it at the same time. Hence one must be a DOER and not a hearer only.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

The Spirit of God dwells in those who YIELD TO GOD (Act 5:32) and not in those who are still in rebellion. An individual in rebellion has in fact pushed God out, and thus He stands at the door and knocks (Rev 3:20).

If Christ is in someone then to them the body is dead but the Spirit is life. Hence they walk after life and not death. This Spirit quickens the flesh and empowers us to walk in victory in this world. Thus we "put to death" the "deeds of the body' (walking according to lust) and through doing this we will live.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Look how the above passage connects to this one...

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The power is given when one RECEIVES or YIELDS to God. This power is the quickening of both the mind and body and we continue to follow to where we are led.

God works conviction BEFORE the above occurs. The Holy Spirit can be with you and yet not in you for God is not far from anyone (Act 17:27) yet he commands for all to repent (Act 17:30).

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement through preachers, the conscience, the Bible etc. The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is given to those who OBEY God (Act 5:32). One cannot be in rebellion (rejecting) and be obeying (receiving) God at the same time thus to believe that one has to be INDWELLING with the Holy Spirit in order to repent (change mind in regards to rebellion) is a fallacy. Those in Nineveh forsook their rebellion through godly sorrow without being first indwelt by the Holy Spirit, yet they were still convicted of sin, righteousness and judgement through the preaching of Jonah as well as through their own consciences. Those in Nineveh did not get SAVED AND FORGIVEN FIRST and THEN forsake rebellion. Which is my original contention at the beginning of this thread.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Re: Come Let Us Reason Together

Colossians 1
Greeting
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

2To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

Colossians 3:5
New International Version (©1984)
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

New Living Translation (©2007)
So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don't be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Therefore, put to death what belongs to your worldly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desire, and greed, which is idolatry.

International Standard Version (©2012)
So put to death your worldly impulses: sexual sin, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry).


i wonder why Paul wasted his breath.
i wonder why The Holy Spirit included these continued exhortations in Scripture.

is it because new Christians make mistakes? errors? need to grow in purity?
is Paul's list a list of mistakes? or sins?