Come Let Us Reason Together

zone · Dec 26, 2012

^^ Skinski^^

^^ also Skinski ^^

"God imputes one righteous by FAITH"
"FAITH is counted as righteousness"

Romans 4:5
New American Standard (©1995)
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

King James Bible
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

American King James Version
But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

American Standard Version
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

Darby Bible Translation
but to him who does not work, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

English Revised Version
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

Webster's Bible Translation
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

........................................

But to him that worketh not

ergazomai: to work, labor
Transliteration: ergazomai
Short Definition: work

Word Origin
from ergon
Definition
to work, labor

accomplish (1), accomplished (1), accomplishing (1), achieve (1), committing (1), do (1), do...work (1), does (3), doing (1), doing...work (1), done (2), make...living (1), perform (4), performed (1), performing (1), practice (1), produces (1), traded (1), work (9), work be done (1), work do...perform (1), working (7), works (1), wrought (1).

^ NOT WORKING ^
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but believeth on him

pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

^^ God's inbirthing of faith ^^ <<<< GIFT << GIFT

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that justifieth the ungodly

dikaioó: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Short Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, justify
Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.

Cognate: 1344 dikaióō (from dikē, "right, judicial-approval") – properly, approved, especially in a legal, authoritative sense; to show what is right, i.e. conformed to a proper standard (i.e. "upright").

The believer is "made righteous/justified" (1344 /dikaió&#333

by the Lord, cleared of all charges (punishment) related to their sins. Moreover, they are justified (1344 /dikaióō, "made right, righteous") by God's grace each time they receive (obey) faith (4102 /pístis), i.e. "God's inwrought persuasion" (cf. the -oō ending which conveys "to bring to/out"). See 1343 (dikaiosyn&#275

.

^^ JUDICIAL APPROVAL ^^ CLEARED OF ALL CHARGES ^^ JUSTIFIED ^^ LEGALLY COMING FROM GOD HIMSELF ^^ NOT GUILTY ^^ APPROVED^^ RECEIVE THE GIFT OF FAITH ^^ DIVINE PERSUASION ^^ BY GRACE

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his faith is counted for righteousness.

logizomai: to reckon, to consider
Original Word: λογίζομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: logizomai
Phonetic Spelling: (log-id'-zom-ahee)
Short Definition: I reckon, count, decide
Definition: I reckon, count, charge with; reason, decide, conclude; think, suppose.

3049 logízomai (the root of the English terms "logic, logical") – properly, compute, "take into account"; reckon (come to a "bottom-line"), i.e. reason to a logical conclusion (decision).

^^ WHO IS RECKONING, COUNTING, CREDITING DECIDING???^^

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his faith is counted for righteousness.

dikaiosuné: righteousness, justice
Original Word: δικαιοσύνη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dikaiosuné
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay)
Short Definition: justice, justness, righteousness
Definition: (usually if not always in a Jewish atmosphere), justice, justness, righteousness, righteousness of which God is the source or author, but practically: a divine righteousness.

1343 dikaiosýnē (from 1349 /díkē, "a judicial verdict") – properly, judicial approval (the verdict of approval); in the NT, the approval of God ("divine approval").

1343 /dikaiosýnē ("divine approval") is the regular NT term used for righteousness ("God's judicial approval"). 1343 /dikaiosýnē ("the approval of God") refers to what is deemed right by the Lord (after His examination), i.e. what is approved in His eyes.

what part of this don't you get Skinski?

weakness · Dec 26, 2012

I have been reading Job.( also the name of my youngest son) the only reference to repentance in Job is made by his worthless and hypocritical friends. Who consistently go deeper and deeper into accusing Job that his condition must be because of SIN. But it states probably eight or so times that Job did not sin,even by god,The beam in our own eye, focusing on sin in others while sinning ourselves(hypocracy) and no hypocrite will inherit.....When I got to know God I thought know thing of repentance at first but only fear and awe toward a God that revealed Himself to me We were called while we were yet sinners, not after we became less sinful. You know that this whole repentance thing ,Hebrews call the firt principles of Christ .And Paul exhorts for us to grow up and move along. It seem Satan has so many stuck on continuing arguments over and over never moving on. Why arguing never led to a change of heart in us it would be wise to ask WHY.Satan wants to keep us from moving forward and really kick his......Its time to grow up in Christ so that unto principalities and powers might be made known by the church the manifold wisdom of god,For this is an eternal purpose, Satan is just laughing at us and so is most unbelievers! pray for true revelation from god to fight the good fight which could soon be over God bless us all!

Skinski7 · Dec 26, 2012

weakness said:

The issue in the Church System is that a Gospel message is being preached which has completely excised the aspect of the Christian having to die with Christ whereby their old man is crucified. This aspect of the cross is not taught.

Thus a convert comes through a "supposed" salvation experience yet is still double-minded and walking in the flesh. That does not work. The new man cannot be born unless the old man first dies. The issue is not "looking at the sin of others," rather, the issue is specifically the doctrine being taught.

Jesus clearly taught that a grain of wheat must die before it can bring forth fruit.

Jesus clearly taught that new wine cannot be put in old wine skins.

Jesus clearly taught that one must deny themselves, pick up their cross and follow Him.

Jesus also taught that you must lose your life for His sake in order to find it.

John the Baptist preached that the axe is laid to the root in repentance and that those who repent ought bring forth deeds that were worthy of their repentance. In Acts the same is taught where it says to preach repentance which is proven by deeds. Thus the action must change if the repentance is genuine. It is through repentance that the root of sin in the heart is cut off once and for all. The root of sin is simply iniquity or rebellion to God. Wanting to go our own way despite the will of God. Repentance destroys this aspect in a sinner and puts them in a "willing and obedient" state whereby they will yield to God.

God will not do the saving work in any person who refuses to yield to Him. This is why Jesus was very clear in preaching repentance. Without repentance men simply cannot be reconciled to God.

Satan knows this and that is why he has directly attacked the repentance message and has subverted it. The attack is very subtle because it has taken effect through the means of redefining the nature of man. This redefining of the nature of man occurred in the 4th century when Augustine brought the gnostic teaching of sin being a "substance of the flesh" as opposed to being a "moral choice" into Christian orthodoxy.

If one is to read the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers one will find that the doctrine of being "born in sin" was not taught in the early church. Judaism never taught it either. This doctrine forces sin to be a hereditary problem found within the birth nature of men. Thus men do not soon through the exercise of free moral agency, instead actual sin is necessitated by the inborn sin nature.

Thus repentance is redefined to fit this model. One cannot repent of an inborn nature any more than one can repent of being black or white. Thus repentance is transformed into a mere CONFESSION OF SINFULNESS. Thereby completely destroying the fundamental purpose of repentance which is the destruction of self worship.

The entire Gospel message is thus redefined in accordance with this foundation. The little leaven of "Original Sin" has leavened the whole lump.

This is why many professing Christian's are remain in bondage to their lusts. They have been convinced that the bondage to their lusts is simply the result of a birth nature and that there is NOTHING they can do about it. Thus they are put into a comatose state whereby they wait on God to change their desires. It NEVER happens.

The desires are supposed to change in repentance through a broken godly sorrow and repentance. God works the conviction upon the heart and the sinner is willingly brought to a state of deep conviction where he KNOWS he has willfully chosen evil because of selfishness. The sinner then changes his mind about the direction he has been going and makes the choice to submit to God which is the better way.

God will not raise someone up who has not been broken to self-will. The fruit of righteousness simply cannot be produced if the sinner does not first die to self in repentance. One cannot be righteous and selfish at the same time. A Christian manifests the righteousness of God through themselves as a WILLING VESSEL because they are...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Righteousness comes via abiding in Jesus Christ and not by external rule sets. Yet one cannot abide in Christ and live by the faith of the Son of God if they are still walking according to the lusts of the flesh in selfishness. One cannot serve two masters. If the eye is single the whole body shall be full of light Jesus taught.

Skinski7 · Dec 26, 2012

Zone,

What you choose to believe is up to you. I would encourage you to at least take a look at the history of the atonement and the various teachings and how they have developed throughout history.

A basic overview can be found at this link...

Atonement of Christ - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

A more in depth examination can be found here...

Atonement in Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here are more links which discuss the various views which have been taught throughout history...

Christus Victor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ransom theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Moral influence theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Recapitulation theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Satisfaction theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Governmental theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Substitutionary atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As I have stated in previous posts, I hold to the Ransom/Christus Victor View with aspects of Moral Influence. I used to hold to Penal Substitution but upon studying and reflecting on the topic as well as through the influence of my own conversion I was forced to reject it as unbiblical.

I am not going to sit here and explain every aspect of the atonement to you as I understand it. If you search through my post history I have discussed much of my understanding on it. I also do not profess to have a complete grasp on how the blood actually cleanses the sinner, just that Bible teaches that it does. There is much more to reality than our perception of it and I think we often overlook this in the sense that we tend to believe that we can write a descriptive formula for everything.

The Bible does not specifically give a lot of detail in regards to how the blood cleanses and God has not revealed it to me either. I am not inclined to dogmatically assert my own speculation to what has already been revealed which is one of the reasons that I am wary of the growing popularity of Moral Government Theology. I have much to learn and I am still learning. Thus I just accept it by faith, yet I do know that we are reconciled to God through repentance and faith which brings the change of direction on our part that we can be brought into a right relationship with God that we be walking in His ways and not our own. It is when we approach God in this manner that the blood is applied and our consciences are cleanses of all our previous transgression. Man has to be reconciled to and not God to man in the sense that the issue of separation is in regards to something men have done, namely sin. God is not going to change and bring Himself down to man's level to be reconciled, no, God set forth a plan to bring men up to God's standard. That method is through Jesus Christ.

I have listed SPECIFICALLY the issues I have with the doctrine of Penal Substitution and why it is clearly at odds with the plain teachings of Jesus and the other Biblical writers. These are not small issues I raise. Penal Substitution is an absurd, contradictory and unbiblical doctrine.

Problems with Penal Substitution.

1. It is a 400 Year Old Doctrine. The early Church NEVER taught it.
2. Sins ARE NOT FORGIVEN but merely appropriated to an innocent who is PUNISHED instead. An innocent is punished to excuse the guilty.
3. There is no scripture reference in the entire Bible which states that God PUNISHED Jesus as a substitute for the sinner.
4. Penal Substitution teaches that sin and virtue are transferable properties rather than being moral choices/actions.
5. If Jesus literally absorbed the punishment from God due the sinner then that forces either Universal Wrath Absorbance and Forgiveness to be true (if He died for everyone) OR Jesus ONLY died for those who would be saved (Limited Atonement - L in TULIP).
6. The parable of the unforgiving servant has the Master freely forgiving a debt WITHOUT the debt being paid by someone else. When the servant does not forgive his own servant the debt is reinstated. This parable totally contradicts Penal Substitution
7. Jesus did not teach anywhere that He was going to be punished in the place of the sinner or that His righteous track record was going to be credited to the believers account.
8. Penal Substitution supports teaching salvation as a purely forensic legal transaction. Penal Substitution does not result in heart purity, instead it cloaks ongoing wickedness.

Again the fundamental point of this thread was in the context that the Bible does not teach that forgiveness is applied to ongoing rebellion.

weakness · Dec 26, 2012

Where does Romans come in to the picture I mean where Paul say when he would do good evil is present. and two law in his members one the law of god after the inward man and another the law waring in his members bringing him into the captivity of the law of sin and death which is in his members.Now if I would do good evil is present with me. Now then it is no more I that do it ,but sin that dwelleth in me. These scriptures are not something to be ignored because they might be hard to explain they ARE scripture so incorporate these into what you are saying . It is possible. but address them .

Skinski7 · Dec 26, 2012

zone said:

God justifies the ungodly because ALL HAVE SINNED. There is no work that anyone can do to undo their past rebellion. We chose to rebel and we are guilty of it. Hence it is purely by the grace and mercy of God that He justifies the ungodly.

Your definitions are true. Which one says that the obedient track record of Jesus is credited to the believers account? None of them. That doctrine is not in the Bible. You cannot produce a single scripture which teaches it. None.

Believing = Doing. Faith without works is dead as James taught and James taught that even the devils believe.

The Israelites who were cut off in the wilderness believed in God. Yet they did not believe in biblical acceptable sense. They rebelled and were concluded in unbelief. The word unbelief in the Greek literally means unfaithfulness. Look it up.

Why do you leave out these two verses from your exposition of scripture...

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Those two verses completely destroy the assertion that there is "no doing."

Not to mention that Jesus taught "TO DO" just about every time He opened His mouth.

When the Bible says "not of works" it is speaking of not any work which is done apart from God. "Not of Works" does not cancel obedience.

We have to obey from the heart.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

I have gone over Romans 4 in past posts in this very thread. Examine what I wrote and actually look up all the scriptures. They mean exactly what they say.

weakness · Dec 26, 2012

The bible does teach that gods grace was instituted will we were yet sinners. perhaps knowledge could make a difference for we are accounted by what we know . him that knew much is accountable for more than one who knows less . You speak of the cross even though Jesus was perfect when the cross was set before him he had to be obedient to maintain his perfection "he learned obedience but what he suffered and was as the captain of our souls ,made perfect. if he was perfectly obedient why did he have to learn it? Our perfection and obedience is not once and forever ,but is a continuous choice as God put new crosses before us . Why Paul considers not having attained ,but presses toward the mark. But at the same time christ has already been made our santification.

Skinski7 · Dec 26, 2012

weakness said:

Of course we cannot ignore Romans 7. There are many things Paul wrote which are hard to understand but by spending time in the word, in prayer and reflecting on what God is showing us we can come to understand these things.

The wretch of Romans 7 is CARNAL and SOLD UNDER SIN (Rom 7:14).

Those who are carnally minded cannot please God. (Rom 8:6-8)

The wretch of Romans 7 does what he KNOWS NOT, thus he is in darkness (Rom 7:15).

A Christian has gone from darkness to light and has been delivered from the power of Satan.

Act_26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The wretch of Romans 7 needs to be delivered from the body of death. (Rom 7:24).

A true Christian has been delivered from the body of sin through dying with Jesus Christ and then being raised up with Him by the power of God.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The Romans 7 wretch is a man "under the law" (Rom 7:1), in the flesh (Rom 7:4) who is also under deep conviction and thus wills to do the right thing (Rom 7:18). The Romans 7 wretch serves the law of God with his mind but with his body the law of sin (Rom 7:25).

Paul is teaching the dilemma of man in bondage to sin, who has a knowledge of the law of God yet cannot keep it. This man is a wretch and needs deliverance.

Romans 6 speaks of how to be delivered from this wretchedness and bondage through the crucifixion of the flesh in repentance. Rom 6:17 states this...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

YE WERE the servants of sin. The Romans wretch is still clearly a servant of sin. Jesus taught in Joh 8:34 that those who sin are SLAVES to sin. He came to set men free (Joh 8:36) from this bondage.

Paul teaches that we are slaves to whom we obey whether it be sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness (Rom 6:16) and that through dying with Christ Rom 6:4-7 and thus being set free from sin we are then to yield our instruments (our bodies) to righteousness (Rom 6:12-14).

Romans 6 is the method by which we can be set free. Romans 7 is the predicament of a sinner under conviction. Romans 8 is the victory that lies in walking after the Spirit.

It is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death. For when we abide in this Spirit of life we fulfill the righteousness of the law by faith (Rom 8:5, Rom 3:31). You see it is via walking in the Spirit (Gal 5:16) that we walk in victory whereby we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Those lusts have been crucified and thus we are able to walk after the Spirit (Gal 5:24-25).

weakness · Dec 26, 2012

Your scriptures are scriptures so let look at them together. Also we've been called unto liberty ,use not your liberty as an occasion for the flesh. to the pure all things are pure , but to him that is defiled nothing is pure. We have entered into a perfect law of liberty only don't use this liberty as an occasion for the flesh.All thing are lawful yet all things are not expedient and edify. WE have to reconcile scripture that seems in contradiction (but is not)How many times iv heard "we canot sin because we are born of God,and if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves.I have herd people argue these a hundred times. Yet they both are true Lack of understanding on the part of some should be admitted instead of self defense and prideful stubbornness to what they project to know. God has called us in on body that we should supply our measure of Christ to other as they share with us .NO discord. yet there are warning about false teacher etc.

Red33 · Dec 26, 2012

Skinski7 said:

It is easy and very simple to define what a child molester is but let's talk about what it means to covet. That is not so easy because so many people, including believers, are involved in it and obscure the practice of covetousness. Child molestation makes the news in a heartbeat but does the news of covetousness and how it effects people's lives get any attention by the news media, NEVER, not even by most local churches and denominations. Come and let us reason together about this practice of coveting.

Believers covet against other believers, intellectually, materialistically, through morality and perfectionism, through standards of righteousness, involving family and possessions, the rights of others, knowledge of the scriptures and the understanding thereby, the gifts and the blessing from God through divine appointment, to only mention a few. I believe covetousness to be the greatest and most subtle sin and transgression practiced among believers in and out of the local church. It is the one bondage that most have not dealt with or been delivered from and it effects almost every area of their life.

One of the first signs of the sin nature that we inherit from conception begins to show up in the heart of a child when he begins to covet things (two young children fighting over a toy and crying when they can't have it). And we, in the name of love and being good parents to our kids, enable that practice in their life very early and we actually teach them how to covet things without even knowing what we are doing. I have never seen this in such full scale as we see it today in the age of electronic digital devices with this 'GOT TO HAVE IT' mentality and if they can't have it they will pull a tantrum or lock themselves in a room and tell you they hate you, until you give in.

This wave of having to have certain kinds of tennis shoes or sneakers and to actually see the fighting and lust that would go on over these is covetousness, it's even ended in one killing another over a pair of shoes. Many think that using drugs is caused by an addiction problem, I don't believe that for a second. I believe it to be a lust problem based on not getting or having what you want or covet after, and it becomes so painful that drugs and certain kinds of relationships and associations try to fill the gap of being without. Some even turn to lesbianism and homosexuality to they can fulfill what they covet in other areas but can't have. Then you get hooked and can't get out of it and your told by professionals that it's an addiction or sexual orientation problem and not a covetous problem.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Jm 4:1-3
1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Acts 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

1Tim 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

1Cor 10:5,6
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Ps 106:14-16
14 But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert.
15 And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.
16 They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the Lord.

The 10 commandment crowd can come and help us out on this one.

Ex 20:17
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox (his work truck), nor his ass (his car), nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

I'll stop here at this point and say this, that many believers do not tithe or believe in it because they covet what belongs to God and not to them.

Skinski7 · Dec 26, 2012

Red33 said:

Red33,

You are erring in presenting the LETTER OF THE LAW which is LEGALISM.

A born again believer FULFILLS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW BY FAITH.

This FAITH WORKS BY LOVE.

LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW.

A born again believer is walking by faith and NOT by the letter of the law. Our hearts have been made clean and pure and we abide in Jesus Christ. Old things have passed away and ALL THINGS have become new. Not some things, ALL THINGS. We ESCAPE the corruption that is in the world through lust. ESCAPE. No more bondage to it!

2Co 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Now this liberty is not to yield to the lusts of the flesh, rather it is to walk in love by faith.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

What you are doing is attempting to find SOME SIN so as to JUSTIFY YOUR VIEW that WILLFUL SIN can be engaged in and still enter the kingdom.

No! Sin is out of the question. If you walk in the Spirit YOU WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH. Do you believe that or not?

James is writing to the church warning them of these things. Read the entire chapter...

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Jas 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
Jas 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Jas 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Jas 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
Jas 4:16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

James is not saying that all Christians lust. James is contending for heart purity here because HE KNOWS that WITHOUT HOLINESS no one will see the Lord. Thus SUBMIT YOURSELVES TO GOD and the DEVIL WILL FLEE.

It is THROUGH CHRIST that the WORKS OF THE DEVIL ARE DESTROYED in our lives.

Jesus spoke of the wheat and the tares WITHIN the Church. Don't be deceived and think you can be saved and sinning at the same time. If the sins of the flesh have not ceased then you have not crucified the flesh with the passions and desires.

A born again believer MANIFESTS righteousness to the world and does not sin. Not in the context of rebellious willful sin. They may err in judgement and fall short but not due to iniquity present in the heart for that has been purged. If that iniquity has not been purged then they need to do what James taught and that is...

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

The END OF THE COMMANDMENT is love out of a PURE HEART and FAITH UNFEIGNED.

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Jesus came to redeem us from ALL INIQUITY. He did not come to leave His people in bondage like you imply.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Skinski7 · Dec 26, 2012

weakness said:

1Joh 1:8-10 are repentance verses which are applied so that one may walk in the light as He is in the light (1Joh 1:7) whereby the blood will cleanse one of all sin. It is through this that our joy is made full and we have fellowship with one another due to our fellowship being with the Father. John wrote those things so that we sin not. John was not teaching that a Christian sins all the time because John clearly taught that those who manifest the fruit of sin are of the devil.

A Christian manifests the fruit of righteousness through the incorruptible seed of Jesus Christ within. Jesus Christ does not lead people to sin. It is through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that we walk in victory over the lusts of the flesh as we walk in the Spirit in love.

The false teachers deny this and argue in favour of sin all the time whilst presenting a facade of morality in their teaching.

zone · Dec 26, 2012

i'm going to correct your blasphemies once more for any tender reed who may actually not have noticed what you are doing.

Skinski7 said:

CHRIST'S CROSS.
you're not teaching it.
what OLD man dies when he hears of his fate Skinski?
THE SELF RIGHTEOUS MAN who thought he was doing okay.

Skinski7 said:

supposed? supposed salvation experience?
if one is born from above, its is a SALVATION EXPERIENCE.

Skinski7 said:

rubbish.
you're calling every Christian who ever understood Christ's LIFE DEATH AND RESURRECTION - The Atonement....deceived false gospel teachers and false converts.

you've swept all of of Christiandom into your moralistic powerless 'gospel'
condemned them all. you've looked at the SINS of others, what you have accused them of having as SIN because they have seen salvation is 100% OF THE LORD and is based on HIS CROSS.....not yours Skinski.

Skinski7 said:

Jesus clearly taught that a grain of wheat must die before it can bring forth fruit.

Click to expand...

HE WAS SPEAKING OF HIS OWN DEATH

NOT YOURS. your death is meaningless....your death can't save you OR anyone else.

i have watched you and DeSario take this beautiful proclamation of Jesus as the Greeks have in faith come to see Him....where He speaks of HIMSELF - Now the Son of Man is GLORIFIED....He sees the beginning of the great multitudes of gentiles who will be able come to Him based on HIS DEATH....i've watched you turn it into FILTH by making it about YOU.

HIS BEING THE "grain of wheat must die before it can bring forth fruit"

^ THAT'S ABOUT JESUS, Skinski.

not you. you and your friends, OH great moralists that you are! Jesus was just an example. you're willing and daring to take this great PROPHECY OF THE ATONEMENT and apply it to your self-righteousness....which tells me YOU DID NOT DIE WITH HIM! your old man is alive and well!

only someone with satan still as their father would take that passage about JESUS and make it about themselves.

your blood, your physical death does zero.

EXCEPT send you that much more quickly to hell without Christ's DEATH and BURIAL and RESURRECTION as THE grain of wheat which would be buried in the ground and rise and bring forth MUCH FRUIT.

Skinski7 said:

more quote mining for your moralism and pietism.
more inserting YOU into something about JESUS.

The NEW is the NEW Covenant in HIS Blood.
the Old wineskins is the LAW which can never save.

but you still don't know that.

you think that NEW WINE is YOU.

again, robbing Jesus of His Glory. pushing Him to the side as a wise and moral teacher.

Skinski....if all that was needed was the perfect teaching and example of Jesus (and He was a Perfect teacher and example) - WHY DIDN'T HE JUST STAY ETERNALLY ALINE ON EARTH TEACHING? surely if He walked in the flesh among us today never having died int eh flesh, there would be MANY who give up everything to follow Him.

BUT WHAT GOOD WOULD THAT DO?

WE WILL ALL DIE. and unless HE DIED, unless He shed His Blood, unless HIS BLOOD the New Wine of the New Covenant was shed for many all the moral teaching the world even from God would do us NO GOOD.

how dare you keep on diminishing the Atonement? how dare you keep usurping passages about HIS Divine Work and apply them to you and your "performance"?

Skinski7 said:

are you ready to be put to death LITERALLY for the sake of the Gospel?
are you willing to be crucified like Peter, beheaded like John and likely Paul?
are you willing to drop your livelihood and literally follow Jesus Christ as His called and chosen disciples in the FIRST CENTURY and all around the world today who are LITERALLY martyred for the GOOD NEWS?

The Good News that Christ died for sinners? you know - that OFFENSIVE message of HIM on the Cross?
(not the offensive message of SKINSKI on the Cross)

Roman Crucifixion is not the known world's VISIBLY TERRORIZING METHOD OF EXECUTION today.
but His disciples knew what He meant. they saw men crucified on hillsides EVERY DAY IN Palestine

but, this is all about Skinski, carrying Skinski's literal cross to Calvary and nailing himself to it. as if YOUR BLOOD can do anything but drain out into the ground and lie worthless. rank and black. good for NOTHING.

Skinski7 said:

what life, Skinski?
what were you REALLY before you supposedly DIED?
what actually KILLED YOU? and clue?

Romans 7:10
The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.

Galatians 3:12
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

Skinski7 said:

more quote mining, robbing Jesus of HIS work....making it about your worthless work.

what AXE? what root of WHAT?
THE MOSAIC LAW SYSTEM!
the delusion of Pharisees like YOU who thought they were righteous UNDER THE LAW (which can not save, it actually kills)

what tree was hewn down? and what tender Branch sprung up out of it?
HUH?
any idea?

^^ just a few of your favorite cherry-picked Christ-less, Cross-less, No-Atonement, self-righteous twisting of things about CHRIST you and your friends empty of all meaning by applying to YOU.

i doubt you'll look at them in context. i doubt you'll see who those passages are about.

eh......*shakes dust*

UNSUBSCRIBE

Red33 · Dec 26, 2012

Skinski, you don't want to deal with the possibility that believers might have a problem with coveting or lusting after things. You don't want that to be true or even a possibility because it would wreck your entire premise for what you believe and it is probably your greatest sin that you do not want to face God with through a cross. Iniquity is the sin of the devil who lusted and coveted the throne of God and the authority of the words that proceeded from that throne. It is the first thing that he used to deceive the woman in the garden and continually uses against the church and members of Christ's body because there is no truth in him.

The devil did everything he could to get the Lord, at His weakest moment in the wilderness, to lust and covet authority and power that was not given to Him, including the kingdoms of the world. If Satan can get the believer to covet things they have not been given, he knows that it will take them out of the will of God and they will not be able to reveal the living God. Christ has crucified those affections and lusts of the flesh positionally though the cross, but that cross must work death in us so that we are crucified unto those things so that His life can come forth out of death experientially.

You never leave room in the believer's life for failure or sin because you believe that the old sin nature has been eradicated in the flesh even though the scriptures tells you otherwise. How is God going to make grace abound in the believers life if you keep telling them that if they are born again they can't sin and won't sin. That is the deceptive part of your premise and it always leads to condemnation because believers can live up to that no matter how hard they try and that includes you and me.

Skinski7 · Dec 26, 2012

Jesus was speaking of His own death AND the death of those who followed Him. We are to SHARE in His death. Jesus led by example. He died for us so that we may die with Him. This is why He washed the feet of His disciples.

Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Joh 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
Joh 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

You receive Jesus by laying aside sin and being a doer of the word.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

That you find fault in this demonstrates that you want a Gospel where God does it all for you. It does not work that way. We are to be WORKERS TOGETHER with God (2Cor 6:1) We have our part and God does His. God is the master and we are the underling. God leads and we yield. If that dynamic is not present then no purity of heart will result. This is why the old man must die, that the new man be born. Once the new man is born in us we can then move onto maturity in the faith as we grow. Not sin less (for it is the old man that was enslaved to lust) but rather grow more as we learn more. We move from faith to faith.

Here is what Jesus taught again about us dying. Again, WE SHARE in His death.

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

When we die with Christ it does not rob God of any glory. That is perverting the truth, in fact it brings God glory when His truth is manifested in us.

What brings God no glory is a Gospel which CLOAKS people in ongoing rebellion. Jesus came to cleanse the heart of sinners not to cloak their evil with an abstract legal transaction. His people are PURE.

I don't teach that the New Wine is us, I have never claimed it was. In your haste you just jump to false conclusion after false conclusion. You don't read what I write, you put your own meaning into what I write because you reject the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires as part of the Gospel. The gospel you believe is an abstract provision only and you have been deceived into believing that if WE HAVE TO DO ANYTHING then it subtracts from the abstract provision. That is a fallacy.

The New Wine is Jesus Christ within. This New Wine cannot be put into an old wineskin just like the Holy Spirit can not indwell a defiled vessel. Hence repentance is the preparation of the heart in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

gb9 · Dec 26, 2012

skinski,how do you respond to 1 Corinthians 5 v.1-5. according to your belief, this person was hell-bound and what Paul said was a waste of time.

Skinski7 · Dec 26, 2012

Red33 said:

Oh a Christian CAN SIN. There is no doubt. Temptation is common to man yet God does not suffer us to be tempted with more than we can handle and there is a way to escape.

If a "Christian" has a problem with lust then that "Christian" needs to repent and crucify their flesh with the LUSTS thereof.

Escaping from the corruption that is in the world through lust means what it says. We ESCAPE.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

A person who is still in bondage has not escaped.

You are attempting to insert "bondage to lust" into the new creation in Christ. One is either a new creation or they are not. There is no in between.

You are a slave to whom YOU OBEY whether of sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Yet God be thanks that those who are Christ's HAVE OBEYED FROM THE HEART the commandment that was delivered and have been made SLAVES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Jesus plainly taught that you CANNOT serve TWO MASTERS. You teach that YOU CAN.

John clearly teaches that you can know a tree by the fruit it bears. Your doctrine has a good tree producing good and evil fruit. It is a sin gospel from start to finish. You continually argue in favour of being able to sin and not surely die. That is the bottom line.

You truly believe that a Christian CAN SIN WILLFULLY and REMAIN JUSTIFIED. If Satan can convince people to believe that then "departing from iniquity" is optional. You can have your cake and eat it to so to speak. You end up with a gospel message which is palatable to the flesh.

Don't fall for it for many do.

Skinski7 · Dec 26, 2012

gb9 said:

That person would perish if they REMAINED in iniquity. Paul was not wasting his time because the man in question was not dead yet. God is long suffering and does not want any to perish but all to come to repentance.

If a person is in known willful sin in the church and refuses to forsake that sin they then must be put out. Hopefully the shame will bring them to conviction and thus to repentance where they can be restored to fellowship.

The man who was defiling himself with his Father's wife was not in a justified state. Read 1Cor chapter 6 where Paul warns the church to not be deceived...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Red33 · Dec 26, 2012

Skinski7 said:

No one is giving permission to sin or to make any provision for the flesh, but if you think that a believer can not or will not, then you are mistaken. No one is encouraging a believer to sin nor are they saying it is okay to live that way, because it is not. You need to get over that because that is where you seem to be stuck. However, If I go out and live in sin for the next 30 days or more, or I backslide as a believer and live in unbelief for the next 30 years, does that reveal that I am not saved or that my sins have not been crucified by the blood of Christ? All it means is that I can not have fellowship nor communion with God or the members of His body.

My sin and backsliding has cut me off from these things and God has to go to work to win me back. He will chasten me, ordain things in my life that are grievous, cut me off from the blessing of grace and even take away what I seemed to have just to get my attention and realize that without Him I am nothing and can do nothing. I will have no lasting joy though I my enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season but that will reap corruption in my life and I will suffer loss in the long run. You can't condemn the believer who is backslidden like the elder brother did in (Lk 15). You must be patient and stand ready at the door looking for the mercy of God and when you see the prodigal coming back you must go out and greet him and kiss his neck like his father did and restore to him with joy and celebration all that he had positionally before he left.

That is the mercy of God and something that many never understand. You can throw all kinds of scripture at this and make your stand but you will not understand the nature of God and what He has promised to those who believe. Do your thing but if it does not include the mercy and grace of God it will fall to the ground and have not life giving Spirit.

Grandpa · Dec 26, 2012

Skinski7 said:

Sure. The only thing wrong with your gospel is you think it is mens work that brought them to "yield".

It is by my own experience that I know I didn't just decide to submit to the will of God. I was brought to the place, by the Lord, where I wanted His Will for my life so badly that the thought of disobedience would be entirely foreign.

There must be a point where people decide to start following the Lord and His Leading. Where this begins I don't know. What I do know, by my own experience, is that His Leading us to Salvation and the works of Salvation are entirely His. All the credit and Glory goes to the Lord Jesus.

The reason why it has nothing to do with your repentance or "godly sorrow" is that would be works and a way to boast in your own vain mind. You didn't decide to repent. The Lord led you to repentance. You didn't manufacture a godly sorrow. The Lord led you to it. You couldn't have managed it without Him.

Why would I leave anything out? He leads us. It is His Work.

Jesus simply told people to DO THINGS. To imply that teaching people TO DO the things He taught is "to think our way out, work our way out (apart from God), make God owe us," is fallacious reasoning.

Click to expand...

Yes, Jesus told us to do things. The Most important one being to come to Him and He will give you rest.

To think that your repentance will cause anything is what is fallacious. You are not the cause. The Lord Jesus is the cause.

In order to deny...?? The Lord Jesus has said that without Him you can do nothing. The Lord Jesus has said no one is good but God.

I think you are just mildly confused. Works of the Law bring you to Christ. Christ Leads. He Leads us into the works and He leads us into Salvation. He Leads us to ask for wisdom and understanding and discernment.

More fallacious reasoning on your part due to the strongholds in your mind.. The exercise of free moral agency in no way impinges on the work of God in raising an individual from darkness to light. Did Noah freely choosing to obey God and build the ark undermine the grace of God in preserving Him through His word? No! Noah yielded to God's instruction and thus His salvation from the flood was authored by God and made effectual through the obedient faith of Noah.

Click to expand...

Free moral agency. That is a joke that is not funny. Left to our own free moral agency we would be like Sodom and Gomorrha.

We have to leave our will behind and ask for His will be done if we want victory in our lives.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The pharisees were the ones that thought they could work their way into the Kingdom of God through their own righteousness and holiness.

You know, just like you...

How would you know?

The gospel is Jesus Christ and what He has already accomplished for us. We have faith in Him and what He did, and does in our lives. We follow Him, we abide in Him, and it is His work that saves us. It is His work that crucifies our flesh, He cleanses us from all our sins, we just follow the Good Shepherd.

If you were to honestly look at your works you would see that you fall woefully short of the bar that the Lord has set for us. And that is the point. You are supposed to see that you fail in your works. That is when you come to Him and ask for His Help.

There is no point in any of your works if you are not asking for His Help. If you are asking for His Help then the credit goes to Him, not you... Seems pretty simple

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