Come Let Us Reason Together

[Enow]

I have spoken to many Pastors who have CLEARLY ADMITTED to me that a pornography addict and a child molester CAN STILL BE ENGAGED in those sins and yet be SAVED at the very same time. Clear as day they admit that and thus they also believe it is the same with all wicked conduct. Why don't people have a problem with that?

I mean seriously, how can anyone defend a Pastor who plainly admits that he believes that a child molester can STILL BE MOLESTING CHILDREN and enter the kingdom in that state because salvation is not of works? It boggles my mind.

If that is not a reflection of how watered down and perverted the Gospel is in people's minds then I really do not know what is.

Your pastor should know that even though that evil & wicked believer is still saved, by condoning his sinful lifestyle, that pastor is defrauding the unrepentant brother of inheritting the kingdom of God.

Now most believers see that to mean losing salvation. Some see it as if they were never saved in the first place. Both are wrong. They both run the risk of being left behind from the pre tribulational rapture event of attending the Marriage Supper.

Make no mistake: God will judge His House first: read 1 Peter 4:17-19 & 1 Corinthians 5:4-13 * note verse 5 & Hebrews 12:1-29 8 note verse 29 & 1 Corinthians 3:10-23 * note verse 15.

You are going to another extreme of placing an emphasis on a believer to repent from his sinful nature BEFORE Christ can save him. Look at how we are justified below.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Now consider this below:

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

If we cannot finish it by the flesh, what makes you think a sinner can start it by the flesh? Clearly, it was begun in the Spirit, and has nothing to do with man but to believe in Jesus Christ which is the response of a good conscience towards God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So you should be telling that pastor that God will chasten every child He receives as He is coming to judge His House first.

It is because that sinner is saved that he should repent because Christ is in him. That sinner has Christ in Him to overcome sin from dominating his life.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Look at the secret of overcoming.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So how is one born of God again?

1 John 5:1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Therefore repentance at salvation is nothing more than repenting from unbelief by believing Jesus Christ as the Saviour that will deliver the sinner from his sins.

It is the walk with the Lord as His disciple that He will help us continue in repenting from sins and not just cointinuing in His words, but we do so by faith in the Son of God in us.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[zone]

I find the responses in this thread very interesting.

There is one person that has been asking over and over as to whether I am born again. They claim that if I answer this question that everything I have written will collapse like a house of cards.

I have already stated clearly that I am not the person I was, that I have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. I have stated that God raised me up from death to life. That is being born again.

Your question is not an honest question. You completely ignore the tenet of what I have written and attempt to find something with which to fault.

If you read my responses you would know that I am born from above. I have stated so but because you were digging for fault it went right past you.

okay Skinski.
you claim to be born again.

THEN WHY ARE YOU PREACHING TO THE CHOIR?

if you have been born from above, you would KNOW that all other truly regenerated Christians have gone through what you've gone through, and some of us WORSE.

i find your bleating and hellfire and brimstone bully pulpit insulting to all Christians who HAVE suffered and agonized over their sin, and continue to do so.

i find the fact you claim to be without sin makes you a LIAR.
that's not my accusation.
the Bible does not allow for anyone, including you, to claim they have no sin.

for that reason alone; you have no truth in you.

you deny the basics of orthodoxy.

there's another reason i know you're whiteknuckling through your addictions and have NOT yet been born from above.

you're one PUNY year into this.

someday (maybe) you'll be brought low and be made to see how sinful you still really are. until that day, you're just a noisy arrogant gong.
when that day comes, i wonder if you'll have the guts and been shamed enough to write to all those pastors you and your crackpot leader have stalked...and make amends.
i doubt it. you'll just disappear.
you guys always do.

 

[Grandpa]

I have spoken to many Pastors who have CLEARLY ADMITTED to me that a pornography addict and a child molester CAN STILL BE ENGAGED in those sins and yet be SAVED at the very same time. Clear as day they admit that and thus they also believe it is the same with all wicked conduct. Why don't people have a problem with that?


I mean seriously, how can anyone defend a Pastor who plainly admits that he believes that a child molester can STILL BE MOLESTING CHILDREN and enter the kingdom in that state because salvation is not of works? It boggles my mind.

If that is not a reflection of how watered down and perverted the Gospel is in people's minds then I really do not know what is.

Those pastors are wrong, no doubt. They err in that they teach a licentious gospel.

You are wrong too. You err in that you teach a works based gospel.

If a person were able to manufacture all the things you say are required to earn salvation, they wouldn't need a Saviour. They would have effectively saved their own selves.

I don't see how you could have been saved, changed by the Lord, and still think it was something you caused by all your good deeds and "obedience".

Psalm 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a brute beast before thee.

You don't understand our plight. It is not something we can think our way out of or work our way out of or cause God to owe us.

We can't perfectly obey the Law in our flesh and will and then God sees how awesome we are and saves us.

When God saves us He changes us and causes us to walk in His statutes. There's no yielding, or working, or doing on our part. There is just gratefulness and wonder at this new heart and spirit inside us that He has led us to the entire way.

The Creator of the Entire Universe doesn't need your permission to perform His Will.

 

[Skinski7]

Your pastor should know that even though that evil & wicked believer is still saved, by condoning his sinful lifestyle, that pastor is defrauding the unrepentant brother of inheritting the kingdom of God.

Now most believers see that to mean losing salvation. Some see it as if they were never saved in the first place. Both are wrong. They both run the risk of being left behind from the pre tribulational rapture event of attending the Marriage Supper.

The above highlight in red is the bottom line of all the rhetoric that you espouse. When all the fluff is stripped away your message is teaching that people can get away with ongoing willful rebellion to God. That is Satan's message in a nutshell, that YOU CAN SIN and NOT SURELY DIE. You preach Satan's lie using a Bible.

That you plainly ignore that "those who are Christ's HAVE crucified their flesh with the associated passions and desires" combined with how you put forth rhetoric incorporating a methodology of isolating and twisting scripture out of context reveals how grossly deceived you actually are.

The thought of how one can actually believe that an individual can be saved and in Christ and yet, at the same time, be evil and wicked I find extremely disturbing.

To twist the Gospel of Jesus Christ into some sort of abstract and provisional cloak of righteousness whilst the individual in question remains utterly defiled and in rebellion does a great disservice to the cause of Christ.

Jesus did not come to cloak you, He came to purify you.

 

[Skinski7]

Those pastors are wrong, no doubt. They err in that they teach a licentious gospel.

You are wrong too. You err in that you teach a works based gospel.

If a person were able to manufacture all the things you say are required to earn salvation, they wouldn't need a Saviour. They would have effectively saved their own selves.

I don't see how you could have been saved, changed by the Lord, and still think it was something you caused by all your good deeds and "obedience".

Psalm 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a brute beast before thee.

You don't understand our plight.

It is not something we can think our way out of or work our way out of or cause God to owe us.

We can't perfectly obey the Law in our flesh and will and then God sees how awesome we are and saves us.

When God saves us He changes us and causes us to walk in His statutes. There's no yielding, or working, or doing on our part. There is just gratefulness and wonder at this new heart and spirit inside us that He has led us to the entire way.

The Creator of the Entire Universe doesn't need your permission to perform His Will.

No Grandpa,

I preach a Jesus Christ based Gospel. A Gospel where the believer is to abide in Christ through the exercise of the free agency which God has given all men. When ANY individual YIELDS to the calling of God and abides in Jesus Christ through repentance and faith then the work of God is made manifest in that believers life.

You might call "submitting to the will of God through the exercise of free moral agency" a "works based Gospel" but that is rooted in misconceptions that you hold in your own mind. You are caught in the rut of an onion of delusion which is consists of layer upon player of deception.

As long as you view mankind as lacking the ability to "choose" through the exercise of "free moral agency" because you uphold, in your mind, that men are BORN morally depraved then you will misapply everything I write because your conceptual framework is FORCED to redefine it within the parameters within which you think, which is very unfortunate.

This is why when you preach Jesus Christ to someone you will ALWAYS leave out the aspect that "those who are Christ's HAVE crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." Such a concept is foreign and contradictory to the framework within which you operate. Which is why you will continue to say things like...

It is not something we can think our way out of or work our way out of or cause God to owe us.

Jesus simply told people to DO THINGS. To imply that teaching people TO DO the things He taught is "to think our way out, work our way out (apart from God), make God owe us," is fallacious reasoning.

We can't perfectly obey the Law in our flesh and will and then God sees how awesome we are and saves us.

Forsaking rebellion through godly sorrow and repentance does not equal "obeying the law in our flesh so God can see how awesome we are." That is the kind of concocted reasoning in your mind that you are forced to come up with in order to deny the ability of men to make choices.

I don't see how you could have been saved, changed by the Lord, and still think it was something you caused by all your good deeds and "obedience".

More fallacious reasoning on your part due to the strongholds in your mind.. The exercise of free moral agency in no way impinges on the work of God in raising an individual from darkness to light. Did Noah freely choosing to obey God and build the ark undermine the grace of God in preserving Him through His word? No! Noah yielded to God's instruction and thus His salvation from the flood was authored by God and made effectual through the obedient faith of Noah.

If a person were able to manufacture all the things you say are required to earn salvation, they wouldn't need a Saviour. They would have effectively saved their own selves.

Pure nonsense. The source of all light is God Himself. Human beings do not "manufacture" the things through which salvation is wrought. They simply "put to use" (by faith) that which God has already provided. Without a Saviour there would be no "light that lighteth the world" nor would there be a means by which past rebellion could be washed away.

Grandpa, you are like a blind Pharisee who could not comprehend the simplicity of Jesus Christ due to their traditions. The teaching of Jesus are PLAIN and SIMPLE. Yet due to you adherence to the religious tradition of your fathers (the reformers) the simplicity of the Gospel is not only lost to you but actually distasteful.

The Gospel is not an abstract provisional cloak.

The Gospel is something we partake in by dying with Christ and then being raised up with Him to newness of life by the power of God. It is through being IN Christ that we are cleansed from all sin by the blood.

The cloak is a myth.

 

[Rock022]

I guess the real question is why is it sin?

Addictions make you a slave, something you feel you can not live with ought. This will go against Love God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Also what does this sin accomplish? In this case it accomplishes self pleasure, thus making it about you not others. Love others as you love yourself. But if you love yourself as superior, making it about your needs instead of others, it's selfishness. We can quote bible verses until we are blue in the face. Learn why it is wrong for God and it will help you love him above all.

 

[zone]

The cloak is a myth.

good luck being found having your own righteousness, there Skinski.
no Righteousness of Christ for you.
you don't need it.

no doubt RC Sproul is one of the men you and your pal DeSario contacted.

oh look....he might even be mentioning you:


The Heresy of Perfectionism
FROM R.C. Sproul
Mar 14, 2011

An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism. Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism, a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in.

The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind. Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.

Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions. To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.

One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection. Perfectionism is really antiperfectionism in disguise. If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.

If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.

I once encountered a young man who had been a Christian for about a year. He boldly declared to me that he had received the “second blessing” and was now enjoying a life of victory, a life of sinless perfection. I immediately turned his attention to Paul’s teaching on Romans 7. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism. My young friend quickly replied with the classic agreement of the perfectionist heresy, namely, that in Romans 7 Paul is describing his former unconverted state.

I explained to the young man that it is exegetically impossible to dismiss Romans 7 as the expression of Paul’s former life. We examined the passage closely and the man finally agreed that indeed Paul was writing in the present tense. His next response was, “Well, maybe Paul Was speaking of his present experience, but he just hadn’t received the second blessing yet.”

I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual arrogance. I asked him pointedly, “You mean that You, at age nineteen, after one year of Christian faith, have achieved a higher level of obedience to God than the apostle Paul enjoyed when he was writing the Epistle to the Romans?”

To my everlasting shock the young man replied without flinching, “Yes!” Such is the extent to which persons will delude themselves into thinking that they have achieved sinlessness.

I spoke once with a woman who claimed the same “second blessing” of perfectionism who qualified her claim a bit. She said that she was fully sanctified into holiness so that she never committed any willful sins. But she acknowledged that occasionally she still committed sins, though never willfully. Her present sins were unwillful.

What in the world is an unwillful sin? All sin involves the exercise of the will. If an action happens apart from the will it is not a moral action. The involuntary beating of my heart is not a moral action. All sin is willful. Indeed, the corrupt inclination of the will is of the very essence of sin. There is no sin without the willing of sin. The woman was excusing her own sin by denying that she had willed to commit the sin. The sin just sort of “happened.” It was the oldest self-justification known to man: “I didn’t mean to do it!”

In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of qualified perfectionism. Here the achievement of perfection is limited to a perfected love. We may continue to struggle with certain moral weaknesses, but at least we can receive the blessing of a perfected love. But think on this a moment. If we received the blessing of a love that was absolutely perfect, how then would we ever commit any kind of sin? If I ever loved God perfectly, I would will only obedience to Him. How could a creature who loved God perfectly ever sin against Him at all?

Someone might answer: “We could still sin against Him in ignorance.” But the perfect love with which we are called to love God is a perfect love of our minds as well as our hearts. If we perfectly loved God with all of our minds, from whence could this ignorance flow? One who loves God perfectly with the mind is perfectly diligent in studying and mastering the Word of God. The perfectly loving mind perceives correctly the light into our paths. A perfectly loving mind doesn’t make errors in understanding Scripture.

But could we not still make mistakes because our minds are less than perfect? I ask why our minds are less than perfect. It is not because we lack brains or the faculty of thinking. Our thinking is clouded because our hearts are clouded. Take away the cloud from our hearts and our minds are illumined by the clear light of God.

A perfect love would yield perfect obedience. The only perfected love this world has ever seen was the love of Christ, who exhibited perfect obedience. Jesus loved the Father perfectly. He sinned not at all, either willfully or in ignorance.

~

sound like you Skinski?
perfect.

 

[Skinski7]

Zone,

You might be seduced by the writings of R.C. Sproul but it would be better for you to use the Scripture.

R.C. Sproul will never teach this...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

nor this...

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Nor will he ever tie these two scriptures together...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Nor will he ever show you this...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

and connect it to this...

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Never will R.C. Sproul teach this...

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

and connect it to this...

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

and this...

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

The crucifixion of the flesh and the lusts thereof DOES NOT EXIST in the Gospel of R.C. Sproul.

Instead R.C. Sproul teaches the following with GREAT SWELLING WORDS...

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IapqqQ45Q4w[/video]

Yet this teaching in the above video is found NOWHERE in the Bible. He takes a FEW verses and rips them completely out of context to prove a myth.

In fact this teaching DID NOT EXIST until 400 years ago. Yet he believes it and YOU BELIEVE IT because it TICKLES your ears.

Imputed righteousness is one of the classic doctrines of Protestantism and traces back through the Reformers - chiefly John Calvin and Martin Luther. These men stood against the Roman Catholic doctrine of infused righteousness where the righteousness of the saints and of Christ is gradually infused to the believer through the sacraments. For the Catholic, infused righteousness either gradually dissipates as the believer takes part in worldly sins or is enhanced by good works. If the believer dies without having the fullness of righteousness, coming in part from the last rites, he or she will temporarily spend time in purgatory until the sinful status is purged from his or her record.

Imputed righteousness - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

The truth is that both the Catholics and the Protestants ARE WRONG.

The Bible PLAINLY TEACHES that God imputes one righteous by FAITH. It is FAITH that is counted as righteousness. God looks at the heart.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,his faith is counted for righteousness.

The Bible does not teach ANYWHERE that the obedient track record of Jesus Christ is credited to your account by faith. Nowhere. Not a single scripture in the entire Bible says it. Jesus never taught it and nor did anyone else. The Bible clearly states that FAITH is counted for righteousness.

What kind of faith? The FAITH of Abraham!

A faith that has a WALK (what you do).
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

A faith that has STEPS (what you do).

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

A faith that is OBEDIENT (produces action).

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

A faith that works by love.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

A faith that establishes the law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

A faith that FULFILLS RIGHTEOUSNESS through the establishment of the righteousness of the law in heart of a believer through love as they walk after the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Which is EXACTLY what Jesus taught...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Jesus Christ came to CLEANSE THE HEART of sinners. Jesus did not come to CLOAK rebellion like R.C. Sproul teaches.

It is VERY APPARENT that you do not like the Scriptures Zone because you refuse to acknowledge what they clearly teach. I or anyone else who preaches the truth can quote the scriptures until the cows come home but they mean NOTHING to you. Instead you call people names like "heretic" and "Luciferian" yet you NEVER expound on the Scriptures to CLEARLY SHOW ERROR.

This time you have chosen to post an article by R.C. Sproul in which he uses RHETORIC, CONJECTURE and STRAWMAN examples.

Cannot you stand on your own two feet and contend for the faith that you believe in? Have you ever actually studied the Scripture and sought God DILIGENTLY for yourself? Or have you just allowed yourself to be spoon fed doctrine that tickled your ears?

Think about it.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

 

[zone]

The Bible PLAINLY TEACHES that God imputes one righteous by FAITH.

wait til i send this to DeSario ^
he'll anathematize you.

It is FAITH that is counted as righteousness.

even a broken clock is right twice a day Skinski.

God looks at the heart.

God help you.

 

[zone]

It is VERY APPARENT that you do not like the Scriptures Zone because you refuse to acknowledge what they clearly teach. I or anyone else who preaches the truth can quote the scriptures until the cows come home but they mean NOTHING to you.

there's no point talking to you Skinski using the scriptures.
you can post all the scriptures you want....that means nothing (concerning your own condition).
except you know The Law.
and?

you must be born again.

you're white knuckling, working and working, and you're still the same sinner you were a year ago.
you've just deluded yourself into thinking you're righteous.
you think you'll have something to boast about.

means nothing to me.
can't help ya.

good luck though.

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Red33]

I have spoken to many Pastors who have CLEARLY ADMITTED to me that a pornography addict and a child molester CAN STILL BE ENGAGED in those sins and yet be SAVED at the very same time. Clear as day they admit that and thus they also believe it is the same with all wicked conduct. Why don't people have a problem with that?


I mean seriously, how can anyone defend a Pastor who plainly admits that he believes that a child molester can STILL BE MOLESTING CHILDREN and enter the kingdom in that state because salvation is not of works? It boggles my mind.

If that is not a reflection of how watered down and perverted the Gospel is in people's minds then I really do not know what is.

I asked you this question before and you remained quiet, so I will ask it again. If you are a fearful person or one who covets as a professing Christian, will you enter the kingdom? You refuse to use these kinds of sins to make your point because they are not related to as the ones you have mentioned. I believe you have problem with coveting and don't even realize it. Coveting covers many things. Will you enter the kingdom if you practice coveting the same way you have mentioned these other sins? If you try to justify your sin and not the others then what does that make you?

 

[zone]

Skinski...

i have a challenge for you.
exhorting one another to ceasing sin is important - teaching perfectionism is delusional heresy.

so let's get to the bottom of what we are really trying to say.

for example, let's see how we do with the sin of lying: so let's use our real names, so people in our real lives can testify whether or not we are lying.
we will provide the names of people who will be witnesses to our righteousness or lack thereof.

let's both post on having crucified the flesh (with everything that entails).

let's make it really personal. a list. one from you and one from me.

we'll flip a cyber-coin, or you can say who goes first.

why don't we list right here in front of the church and the world all the besetting sins, all the sins of every sort we have laid aside...and which ones we haven't.

that's simple, right?

let me know how you wish to proceed.

zone.

 

[Skinski7]

I asked you this question before and you remained quiet, so I will ask it again. If you are a fearful person or one who covets as a professing Christian, will you enter the kingdom? You refuse to use these kinds of sins to make your point because they are not related to as the ones you have mentioned. I believe you have problem with coveting and don't even realize it. Coveting covers many things. Will you enter the kingdom if you practice coveting the same way you have mentioned these other sins? If you try to justify your sin and not the others then what does that make you?

No you won't because the Bible specifically states that you won't. We overcome all things through Jesus Christ out Lord. If we walk in the Spirit we WILL NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We are not tempted above what we are able, God always offers a way of escape that we may take it.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[PatientSpirit]

Who here has overcame? Only one who has crucified the flesh. Blessed is the dead that die in the Lord, who is such over the living AND the dead!

ALL who have died are overcomers by remission of sins.

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski...

i have a challenge for you.
exhorting one another to ceasing sin is important - teaching perfectionism is delusional heresy.

so let's get to the bottom of what we are really trying to say.

for example, let's see how we do with the sin of lying: so let's use our real names, so people in our real lives can testify whether or not we are lying.
we will provide the names of people who will be witnesses to our righteousness or lack thereof.

let's both post on having crucified the flesh (with everything that entails).

let's make it really personal. a list. one from you and one from me.

we'll flip a cyber-coin, or you can say who goes first.

why don't we list right here in front of the church and the world all the besetting sins, all the sins of every sort we have laid aside...and which ones we haven't.

that's simple, right?

let me know how you wish to proceed.

zone.

Who is teaching perfection? Obedience from the heart to God does not equal perfection. Perfect in love towards God yes but not in the sense of never making a mistake, misjudgment or falling short. Yielding to God doesn't mean your Jesus, it just means you are not going your own way in willful defiance of the will of God.

Now you want to use our real names so people can testify in real life? You divert from the issues I have raised in my posts and attempt to turn this into a court of public opinion. You want to provide the real names of associates? What on earth are you talking about? You constantly talk about "everything else" EXCEPT" what the Scriptures teach. Misdirection and diversion is your game.

I don't need to know your real name nor do I need to know the names of your brethren. Nor will I provide the names of anyone I know to you. That is none of your business. What is this foolishness? You sound very desperate indeed. What I have written must be getting right under your skin.

Are you straining out a gnat in order to swallow a camel?

For the record my name is Scott Wilson and that is all you need to know. You are very hostile to the preaching of Christ crucified where it extends to US DYING WITH HIM so that we may share in His death and resurrection.

The issue at hand is the fact that the the Church System does not teach the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires. Thus sin that is wrought through the selfish yielding to those passions is never deemed to cease. Which means that the Gospel has to be presented in such a way so as to "cover" the ongoing state of yielding to the flesh.

You have not addressed this issue at all as far as I can see in this thread. You have made accusations and presented strawmen. You have called me a heretic and a Luciferian. You have posted an article written by a celebrity reformer that you obviously esteem. The one thing you have not done though is specifically address anything I have written with the Scripture. Why is that?

All you do is belittle and throw insults. You don't reason from the scriptures, in fact you have thrown reasoning completely out the window and resorted in desperation to ad hominem attacks.

 

[Skinski7]

Who here has overcame? Only one who has crucified the flesh. Blessed is the dead that die in the Lord, who is such over the living AND the dead!

ALL who have died are overcomers by remission of sins.

The problem in the church system is the denial that one actually escapes the corruption that is in the world through lust so that we can then be partakers of the divine nature as we grow in Christ.

You say "only one has crucified the flesh" yet the Bible specifically says that those who belong to Christ have done so as well.

None of us can abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ unless we first are crucified with Him. We are partakers in His sufferings whereby we put on the same mind that we serve the will of God rather than the lusts of this world. Thus we hold our eyes upward instead of down to earthy things. This is the Christian walk.

The cross is not a cloak. It is something that we partake in.

Jesus indeed offered Himself on our behalf and without the shedding of His blood our sisn could not be remitted. Yet we can only access the blood if we also die to self which is what it means to pick up our own cross and deny ourselves. FEW who profess Christ will actually do this for it is much more palatable to the flesh to buy into a false gospel which tickles the ears with a salvation message where the denial of self has been removed.

 

[cfultz3]

The problem in the church system is the denial that one actually escapes the corruption that is in the world through lust so that we can then be partakers of the divine nature as we grow in Christ.

You say "only one has crucified the flesh" yet the Bible specifically says that those who belong to Christ have done so as well.

None of us can abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ unless we first are crucified with Him. We are partakers in His sufferings whereby we put on the same mind that we serve the will of God rather than the lusts of this world. Thus we hold our eyes upward instead of down to earthy things. This is the Christian walk.

The cross is not a cloak. It is something that we partake in.

Jesus indeed offered Himself on our behalf and without the shedding of His blood our sisn could not be remitted. Yet we can only access the blood if we also die to self which is what it means to pick up our own cross and deny ourselves. FEW who profess Christ will actually do this for it is much more palatable to the flesh to buy into a false gospel which tickles the ears with a salvation message where the denial of self has been removed.

Preach on

 

[PatientSpirit]

The problem in the church system is the denial that one actually escapes the corruption that is in the world through lust so that we can then be partakers of the divine nature as we grow in Christ.

You say "only one has crucified the flesh" yet the Bible specifically says that those who belong to Christ have done so as well.

None of us can abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ unless we first are crucified with Him. We are partakers in His sufferings whereby we put on the same mind that we serve the will of God rather than the lusts of this world. Thus we hold our eyes upward instead of down to earthy things. This is the Christian walk.

The cross is not a cloak. It is something that we partake in.

Jesus indeed offered Himself on our behalf and without the shedding of His blood our sisn could not be remitted. Yet we can only access the blood if we also die to self which is what it means to pick up our own cross and deny ourselves. FEW who profess Christ will actually do this for it is much more palatable to the flesh to buy into a false gospel which tickles the ears with a salvation message where the denial of self has been removed.

Those who have died does include the firstfruits of the Spirit of God. If you are dead, it's not you who lives but Christ and the first resurrection who lives in you forevermore. The second death holds no power over you, having ALREADY died once as appointed to all men.

 

[zone]

Who is teaching perfection? Obedience from the heart to God does not equal perfection. Perfect in love towards God yes but not in the sense of never making a mistake, misjudgment or falling short.

making a mistake, misjudgment or falling short. < SIN?

just yes or no?

Yielding to God doesn't mean your Jesus, it just means you are not going your own way in willful defiance of the will of God.

great!
are you the only person in the world yielding to God?
how many of you are there?
apparently all of Christiandom has had it wrong - damnably so....i wondered if you guys have a rough figure of how many (like you) are were or will be saved?

what's it like to be among the few, Skinski?

Now you want to use our real names so people can testify in real life? You divert from the issues I have raised in my posts and attempt to turn this into a court of public opinion. You want to provide the real names of associates? What on earth are you talking about? You constantly talk about "everything else" EXCEPT" what the Scriptures teach. Misdirection and diversion is your game.

i want to see your real fruit.
you show me yours, i'll show you mine.

we ALL know every one of those passages you've posted.
do you really think you're the only guy who ever cracked a Bible?

you've condemned every pastor you and your gang could set-up.
you've condemned every Reformed christian throughout history.

so, i'm asking if you will step forward with more than what you've produced here on an internet forum.

let's see if your real life matches up with your posts.

I don't need to know your real name nor do I need to know the names of your brethren. Nor will I provide the names of anyone I know to you. That is none of your business.

aahh...all the pastors and others you've written letters to and plastered all over the www by name are everybody's business, but who you are and how you really look in real life is not anyone's business?

What is this foolishness? You sound very desperate indeed. What I have written must be getting right under your skin.

foolishness?
why is it foolish? let's see your real-life fruit!
but...oh no. that's for everyone else, but not for you.

nah bud - you're not getting under my skin. why would you be?
because you're holier than i am?
who doubts that by now? you've proven it, haven't you?

Are you straining out a gnat in order to swallow a camel?

um....no, i'm wondering who you really are and what your life really looks like.
all your yakking has me quite interested now.

For the record my name is Scott Wilson and that is all you need to know. You are very hostile to the preaching of Christ crucified where it extends to US DYING WITH HIM so that we may share in His death and resurrection.

you don't know what being crucified with Christ is, Scott Wilson.

The issue at hand is the fact that the the Church System does not teach the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires.

mine does.

more importantly THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES.

you don't know what the "church system" teaches.
you know what Promise Keepers does; what DeSario teaches, and your twisted version of what the church teaches.

just never quite got around to wondering why Paul had to anticipate the OFFENSIVE OBJECTIONS from guys like you to The Good News - "________ ? May it never be!"

^ you don't know what that means, do you Scott?

Thus sin that is wrought through the selfish yielding to those passions is never deemed to cease. Which means that the Gospel has to be presented in such a way so as to "cover" the ongoing state of yielding to the flesh.

Who is teaching perfection? Obedience from the heart to God does not equal perfection. Perfect in love towards God yes but not in the sense of never making a mistake, misjudgment or falling short.

can't admit you have sin, eh Skinski?
according to St John, there's no truth in you.

Perfect in love towards God yes

serious?
you're perfect in love towards God?

is this what you REALLY intend to claim?

we'll come back to it.

You have not addressed this issue at all as far as I can see in this thread. You have made accusations and presented strawmen. You have called me a heretic and a Luciferian. You have posted an article written by a celebrity reformer that you obviously esteem. The one thing you have not done though is specifically address anything I have written with the Scripture. Why is that?.

what is there to address?
we are in complete agreement on what the scriptures say.

what we are not in agreement on is whether YOU have sin (right now, this moment, today, according to the scriptures).

all that talking, and no confession of having sin. < this makes you a liar. you ought to be very concerned.

All you do is belittle and throw insults.

i've watched all DeSarios vids and read all your posts - want a recap?

You don't reason from the scriptures, in fact you have thrown reasoning completely out the window and resorted in desperation to ad hominem attacks.

what reasoning do you want to do? you want me to deny the Righteousness of Christ imputed to sinners?
NOPE.
WON'T DO IT.

you want me to deny Christ Our Propitiation, Substitutionary Atonement?

NOPE. NEVER.

you want to me to agree Skinski is without sin today?

NOPE. NOT GOING TO DO IT.

let me know if you change your mind about MANNING up according to your own treatment of the pastors.
let's have your list, Skinski

 

[zone]

Jesus indeed offered Himself on our behalf

Jesus offered Himself on our behalf?
To whom?

for what?

was His offering accepted?

by whom?

and without the shedding of His blood our sisn could not be remitted.

okay.
did He shed His blood?
was it for the remission of sins?

i'm unclear on your gospel at this point....

1) Jesus offered Himself on our behalf
2) He shed His blood
3) for the remission of sins

^ where do you see this in the scriptures?

how is His blood effectual in the remission of OUR SINS?
how does it work, Skinski?

how can the Blood of an Innocent Man pay for the sins of a guilty man?

just make it really simple.
i know you said before that if SINNER X asked you 'what must i do to be saved'; you said you would tell them "CEASE ALL SIN AND ONLY THEN GOD WILL SAVE YOU"

is that your Gospel?

Yet we can only access the blood if........

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Yet we can only access the blood if........

WE CAN ONLY ACCESS THE BLOOD IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS.

see how it works Skinski?

we also die to self which is what it means to pick up our own cross and deny ourselves. FEW who profess Christ will actually do this for it is much more palatable to the flesh to buy into a false gospel which tickles the ears with a salvation message where the denial of self has been removed.

disgraceful.
you have not begun to pick up your cross - YOU DON'T THINK YOU NEED ONE!