Comment of Calvinism

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superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
29
48
#1
The following is from New Testament History of Acts, A commentary by Garreth H. Reese, Scripture Exposition Books, 2002, footnote 42, p. 322, any highlighting added.

Someone has given a little acrostic to help fix in mind the five points of Calvinism. Take the letters of the word TULIP, and let each stand for one of these points. T = total depravity; U = unconditional election; L = limited atonement; I = irresistible grace; and P = perseverance of the saints (what we have called "eternal security"). The student should be acquainted with each of these terms and be aware that each of the ideas is unbiblical, at least in the form taught by Calvin. The reason for the necessity of knowing these ideas is that any churchgoer who worships in the Reformed tradition will believe them, and will need to be taught if he is to be won away from his denominational ideas.

***End of quote***

When I read the above, I realized that I don't actually know where I stand on all of these issues. I need to research the scriptures and pray more for guidance. Are these ideas REALLY unbiblical?

Comments? Suggestions?
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
29
48
#2
The following is from New Testament History of Acts, A commentary by Garreth H. Reese, Scripture Exposition Books, 2002, footnote 42, p. 322, any highlighting added.

Someone has given a little acrostic to help fix in mind the five points of Calvinism. Take the letters of the word TULIP, and let each stand for one of these points. T = total depravity; U = unconditional election; L = limited atonement; I = irresistible grace; and P = perseverance of the saints (what we have called "eternal security"). The student should be acquainted with each of these terms and be aware that each of the ideas is unbiblical, at least in the form taught by Calvin. The reason for the necessity of knowing these ideas is that any churchgoer who worships in the Reformed tradition will believe them, and will need to be taught if he is to be won away from his denominational ideas.

***End of quote***

When I read the above, I realized that I don't actually know where I stand on all of these issues. I need to research the scriptures and pray more for guidance. Are these ideas REALLY unbiblical?

Comments? Suggestions?
Let me add that after researching what the first four actually mean, I definitely don't agree with them. But the last one, irresistible grace, sounds a lot like once saved, always saved, which is argued a lot in this board.
 
L

Lad

Guest
#3
Hi superdave, i used to be a calvinist myself, but now i would say i only believe in the T and the P of tulip. Hope my msg helps :)

I believe that Total Depravity means that man, in and of himself is not good at all in the sight of God and doesnt seek after the true God, but many DO seek after the ability to be better, and the opportunity of salvation, they just look at either themselves or other false gods.

I believe in Conditional Election, in other words that God chose the people before the foundation of the world who He foreknew would accept his call, to be saved.

I believe in Universal Atonement, that Christ died for all.

I believe in Resistable Grace, that christians can reject Gods initial call of salvation

and finally I believe in Perseverance of the Saints, or once saved always saved.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#4
Let me add that after researching what the first four actually mean, I definitely don't agree with them. But the last one, irresistible grace, sounds a lot like once saved, always saved, which is argued a lot in this board.


this is because that calvinist believe that you can't have a say in your salvation, as far as accepting it, God forces it on the ones that He has elected , and we have to keep preaching the Gospel, even though it won't change who is in and who is out , we have to keep preaching it , because we can' know who is in and who is out, according to their doctrine of Grace, so I could have all the faith (in the world) in God, love God with all my heart, confess Him with my Mouth as Lord and Preach His Gospel for 40 years and still burn in hell because I wasn't a chosen one. and the Crazy thing about this is: according to the doctrine of grace through calvinist eyes, this is the Good news we are to tell all nations!!!!!! God has chosen some But you may not be one of those that are chosen, yeah that is limited good news! so yes on the other hand you could be a murderer and be one of the chosen ones and still get in regardless of if you repented of that murder or not. so yeah to a far extreme measure calvinist are once saved always saved.
 
S

socperkins

Guest
#5
I think I'm a Perkinsist
 
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greatkraw

Guest
#6
it is important to remember that Calvinnever heard of TULIP

his followers came up with it

Dutch Reformed = TULIP geddit?
 
L

Lad

Guest
#7
this is because that calvinist believe that you can't have a say in your salvation, as far as accepting it, God forces it on the ones that He has elected , and we have to keep preaching the Gospel, even though it won't change who is in and who is out , we have to keep preaching it , because we can' know who is in and who is out, according to their doctrine of Grace, so I could have all the faith (in the world) in God, love God with all my heart, confess Him with my Mouth as Lord and Preach His Gospel for 40 years and still burn in hell because I wasn't a chosen one. and the Crazy thing about this is: according to the doctrine of grace through calvinist eyes, this is the Good news we are to tell all nations!!!!!! God has chosen some But you may not be one of those that are chosen, yeah that is limited good news! so yes on the other hand you could be a murderer and be one of the chosen ones and still get in regardless of if you repented of that murder or not. so yeah to a far extreme measure calvinist are once saved always saved.
Although im not a calvinist any longer, i just wanted to set something right. they dont believe that christians can go to hell. rather that all the people who God chooses will become christians and those who he didnt wont, so if you confess with your heart and mouth Christ as Lord then it is supposed to mean u were predestined to do so. but yeah, again, i no longer believe in that.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
837
17
18
#8
You know, when I first started reading the bible, I was offended actually by the calvinist idea of election which is in there.
1 example, which I'm sure most will explain away, but none the less.
1cor1:26:For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

When I first talked about this after coming to faith I was abit shocked at the reaction of christians to it as if I was saying something horrible. Which the idea that you aren't in control of your destiny I imagine, I know is that way for a non-believer.

Now a person not in the faith when confronted with this from scripture, who has a desire to believe but has not came to that point as in it being revealed to them by God will strive against it, try to work in themselves repentance and faith to no avail until they realize they stand guilty before God, their rightful end being the lake of fire. They give up all their strivings and hope of being able to will themselves into faith and just fall at the mercy of God. For God gives grace to the humble, and He comforts those who are poor of spirit.

The truth of the matter is that salvation is God's gift, and He will give it to who He chooses, He asks that you come to Him and a little child. You can't will to recieve the gift, nor can you demand it. God stands in the judgement seat, man in the seat of the condemned. He is eager to save. You don't recieve it with pride in your heart. With the idea that you are owed something from God.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
#9
2 Peter 3:9

...God is not willing than ANY should perish.....
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
837
17
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#10
John10:26 "But you do not believe, because you are not my sheep, as I said to you."
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#11
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.


1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
1,396
120
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#12
the unbiblical parts of calvinism..

well to begin with a true calvinist never asks for salvation from Jesus-- they are depraved to the point of being unable to call for salvation from Jesus. That contradicts most of Romans 10.. and many many verses about believing on Jesus for eternal life.

Then once a calvinist is somehow saved (I don't know how they know) - they WILL do good works.. if they don't.. they were never saved. This is what they believe.

Their 'once saved always saved' doctrine is not really what it means.. what they really mean is a saved person will do good works and that is evidence that they are saved forever. True once saved always saved doctrine means a person will have fruit after salvation but they may fall away.. not do good works.. they remain saved and were always saved before, during, and after they fell away.

Calvinists take the verse 'he who endures to the end will be saved' verse to mean.. a saved person will endure.. will do good works until the end. The context of this verse is not about eternal salvation- but deliverance from trouble and trials. It means.. that if someone endures through hard tribulations.. then they will come out of it.. that is all- they will be rescued.. delivered.

But the main problem with calvinism is that Jesus sacrifice is only limited to a select chosen group.. it isn't 'whosoever calls upon the Lord shall be saved'.. .but 'those chosen by the Lord in advance are saved.. and these chosen ones will do good works'

The truth is.. the Holy Spirit convicts someone and then they respond to this conviction by either calling on Jesus for salvation or rejecting it. They become 'elected' not because they were pre-elected in advance but because they respond to God's tapping on their heart.

So that is my beef with Calvinism. I could also go on and on about Armenianism aswell.. both are unbiblical doctrines.. unless of course you take loss of salvation out of Arminian beliefs.
 
L

Lad

Guest
#13
well after all that superdave you can see that both sides can claim scripture. it just depends on ur bias as to how you interpret them. As ive found out, its not that one is unbiblical and the other biblical but rather that its really a matter of choice, whatever SEEMS more biblical to you, whichever goes with God's personality the most, etc, its a personal conviction either way, so study up and pray about it and see what the Spirit says, cos after all neither belief systems are heresy. Also if you have any questions on either please feel free to ask me, because im not biased either way, (and as ive seen on here people do have a wrong view of calvinism) even though i would now say i believe in the doctrine of Arminius, Ive also been a believer in the doctrine of Calvin so I havent got any of that confusing judgment to one or the other.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
837
17
18
#14
Def, I was gonna post a different verse from this chapter but I would like your thoughts on this. I'll assume you know the context.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
#15
Def, I was gonna post a different verse from this chapter but I would like your thoughts on this. I'll assume you know the context.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Yes, if you read Romans 9, 10 and 11 they are all talking about Israel. So this doesn't help your point at all, this is actually arguing against the idea God has a random selection. God is going to have mercy on ALL, EVERYONE, EVERY HUMAN.

Which lines up with...

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

So how do you explain?

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#16
I'm also curious your interpretation on this.

2 Kings 20
1 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’”
2 Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the LORD, saying,
3 “Remember now, O LORD, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
4 And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
5 “Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD.
6 And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.”’”
7 Then Isaiah said, “Take a lump of figs.” So they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.
8 And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, “What is the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go up to the house of the LORD the third day?”
9 Then Isaiah said, “This is the sign to you from the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing which He has spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees or go backward ten degrees?”
10 And Hezekiah answered, “It is an easy thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees; no, but let the shadow go backward ten degrees.”
11 So Isaiah the prophet cried out to the LORD, and He brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down on the sundial of Ahaz.


Hmmm.... What happened to God's will here???? Look's like He said one thing and then Hezekiah PRAYED and it changed God's will???
 
Oct 1, 2009
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#17
The way Calvinism is understood and explained on this board, I'd hate it too.
 
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NewBelieverofChrist

Guest
#18
I do believe in Calvinism, but only because all 5 points are very supported in the Bible. My pastor gave me a book called the five point of Calvinism and when I read it, it surprised me how readily it is rejected but how clear the Bible makes it.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY OR TOTAL INABILITY
Genesis 8:21 The intention of man's heart is evil from his youth
Ecclesiastes 9:3 The hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hears while they live

Before sinners are born into God's kingdom through the regenerating power of the Spirit, they are children of the devil and under his control; they are slaves to sin
John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires
1 John 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one

Men left in their dead state are unable of themselves to repent, to believe the gospel, or to come to Christ. They have no power within themselves to change their nature or to prepare themselves for salvation.
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient in our ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God.

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

There are general statement in Scripture that God has an elect people, and that He predestined them to salvation, and thus to eternal life

Psalm 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!
Matthew 11:27 No one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen
Luke 18:7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Before the foundation of the word, God chose particular individuals for salvation. His selection was not based upon any forseen response or act performed by the chosen. Faith and good works are the result, not the cause, of God's choice.

Mark 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him
Revelation 13:8 And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.
Romans 9:11-13 Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call- she was told, " the older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
Romans 10:20 I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake.


I will finish the other three points later when I have time
 
Dec 21, 2009
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#19
I know many in CC believe in the once saved always saved theory
AND
That is exactly what it is.......JUST.......a theory
READ
THESE SCRIPTURES

JOHN 5:14...JESUS findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, BEHOLD, thou art made hole(SAVED=SALVATION): SIN NO MORE
(JESUS' COMMANDMENT TO ALL OF US), LEST A WORSE THING COME UNTO THEE.

JOHN 8:34...JESUS answered them, VERILY, verily I(JESUS) SAY UNTO YOU, WHOSOEVER COMMITTETH SIN IS THE SERVANT OF SIN.

ROMANS 6:16...Know ye not, that to WHOM YE YIELD YOURSELVES SERVANTS TO OBEY, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
WHETHER of SIN UNTO DEATH, OR of OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS.

2 CORINTHIANS 5:10...FOR WE MUST ALL APPEAR before the JUDGEMENT seat of CHRIST; THAT EVERYONE MAY RECEIVE the things done in his body, ACCORDING to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

GALATIANS 6:7...BE NOT DECEIVED, GOD is not mocked: for whatsoever a MAN SOWETH, that shall he also reap.

HEBREWS 10:26...FOR IF WE SIN WILFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH(TO BE SAVED), there remaineth NO MORE(MEANS=IF YOU SIN AFTER BEING SAVED YOU ARE NO LONGER SAVED SO YOU MUST REPENT TO BE SAVED AGAIN) sacrifice for sins.

2 PETER 2:21...For it had been better FOR THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN the way of RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, after they HAVE KNOWN IT, to TURN FROM the HOLY COMMANDMENT delivered unto them.


THESE SCRIPTURES ARE CLEAR
IF YOU ARE SAVED AND STILL SIN
GRACE WILL NOT SAVE YOU
AND YOUR REWARD WILL BE

REVELATIONS 21:8...a list of sins that will get you = LAKE of FIRE FOREVER.......


SO PLEASE
BE CAREFUL MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS
WHEN
SOMETHING SOUNDS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE
SUCH AS
EATING 20 LBS. OF CHOCOLATE WONT MAKE YOU FAT AND BREAK YOUR SKIN OUT
OR
JUST TRY IT ONCE IT CAN'T HURT YOU OR THEY DID IT SO CAN I
AND IN THIS CASE
ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED
YOU CAN BET YOUR LAST PENNY
IT IS JUST EXACTLY THAT

IT WAS JUST TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE..........
 
N

NewBelieverofChrist

Guest
#20
If your are truly saved, then you cannot fall away. It is in the Scripture.

Jeremiah 32:40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put fear in their hears, that they may not turn from me.

Matthew 18:12-14 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the 99 on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? and if he finds it, truly, I say to you,, he rejoices, over it more than over the 99 that never went astray. So is it not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

John 6:35-40 Jesus said to them." I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I WILL NEVER CAST OUT. For this I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should LOSE NOTHING of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and THEY WILL NEVER PERISH, and NO ONE WILL SNATCH THEN OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you WERE SEALED for the day of redemption.

I don't think I can explain better than that. The Bible makes it very very very clear. Yes people sin and fall into sin but if they are TRULY SAVED Christ will bring them back. I think the problem is people thinking they are saved when they truly aren't. It will all show in the fruit that is being shown in their life.