Comment of Calvinism

[joint-heir]

If your are truly saved, then you cannot fall away. It is in the Scripture.

Jeremiah 32:40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put fear in their hears, that they may not turn from me.

Matthew 18:12-14 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the 99 on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? and if he finds it, truly, I say to you,, he rejoices, over it more than over the 99 that never went astray. So is it not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

John 6:35-40 Jesus said to them." I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I WILL NEVER CAST OUT. For this I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should LOSE NOTHING of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and THEY WILL NEVER PERISH, and NO ONE WILL SNATCH THEN OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you WERE SEALED for the day of redemption.

I don't think I can explain better than that. The Bible makes it very very very clear. Yes people sin and fall into sin but if they are TRULY SAVED Christ will bring them back. I think the problem is people thinking they are saved when they truly aren't. It will all show in the fruit that is being shown in their life.

I love those scriptures you referenced to...
BUT
even in that
many who are saved and sealed still step out of GOD
whther it is seeing someone get something you think you deserve this is the sin of envy
or
you look at a woman and before you know it you are entertaining thoughts of sexual content this is sin
or
you barter with GOD about a job or relationship this is sin
or
you disobey what GOD tells you to do like witness to someone you really wished you could just avoid this is sin
there are many ways that we can claim we are saved but still sin thinking we are under GRACE and it is cool
NO
IT IS NOT COOL to GOD
IN FACT
the first verse I began with and second verse were both from the mouth of JESUS HIMSELF

Adam and Eve sinned
Abraham didnt believe GOD was giving him a son thru Sarah
Jacob means trickster because he tricked his brother out of his birthwright and GOD changed his name to Israel
Moses was not allowed in promised land for disobeying GOD
David had his sons die from his sins
Jonah sinned and was swallowed up by a great fish
Peter denied Jesus 3 times and cursed HIM
we are just like these
and GRACE has been around since the time of CREATION
but like these
we must repent just like each one of these we read about
IF
THEY HAD NOT REPENTED
We would not be reading about them and gaining hope we can make it too in our lives
MANY
want to say yes but JESUS changed all of that
BUT according to JESUS HIMSELF HE was before Abraham as I AM
SO
HIS GRACE has been around for a long time and yet HE allowed those in the desert with Moses to be swallowed up for their disobedience and sins
GOD is the same YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER HE NEVER CHANGES
DON'T
get caught up in a lie thinking you can do whatever since you have been saved
you will find yourself burning in eternity forver if you do.......

JESUS had 2 purposes
be the perfect sacrifice for sin
be our example how to live (sin free)
THIS
IS NOT
A GET OUT OF LIVING RIGHT FREE CARD TO THINK ONCE SAVED IM COOL
HE DID NOT DIE
THE MOST HORRIFIC SUFFOCATING HUMBLING SHAMEFUL DEATH
BEAT BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION
SO
WE COULD WALK AROUND AND THINK WE HAVE NOTHING TO SACRIFICE OURSELVES
NO
HE DIED
THAT IF WE CHOSE TO BELIEVE IN HIM
THAT WE WOULD LIVE EVERY DAY LIKE HIM
WE WOULD BE JUST LIKE HIM IN OUR WALK
THEN
WE WOULD HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE
THIS IS NOT
WELL IM SAVED
SO
I CAN DO AS I PLEASE
THIS IS THE BIGGEST LIE EVER CREATED
NEXT TO EATING THE TREE OF GOOD AND KNOWLEDGE
WHICH IS BOTH BY SATAN

 

[NewBelieverofChrist]

I agree with you in this. That is not a reason at all to sin.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I agree no where does it say the seal is permanent or cannot be broken. The Israelites thought God would never leave them too and look what happene.d

 

[Pete_Martinez]

I agree no where does it say the seal is permanent or cannot be broken. The Israelites thought God would never leave them too and look what happene.d

On the contrary, Romans says Israel will ultimately be saved, and in the book of Revelation we see God turning back to Israel after he has dealt with the church. I would be terribly afraid if there were no hope for them.

 

[Definition_Christ]

On the contrary, Romans says Israel will ultimately be saved, and in the book of Revelation we see God turning back to Israel after he has dealt with the church. I would be terribly afraid if there were no hope for them.

So God doesn't really mean this?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’


Read Romans 9, 10 and 11 and when you get to Romans 11 when it speaks of all of Israel being saved, it's talking about the faithful remnant, if you come to a different conclusion please share.

 

[joint-heir]

On the contrary, Romans says Israel will ultimately be saved, and in the book of Revelation we see God turning back to Israel after he has dealt with the church. I would be terribly afraid if there were no hope for them.

this is for the 144,000
NOT
the
MILLIONS
who continue to reject HIM daily

 

[MahogonySnail]

Yes Peter_Martinez, Paul speaks about the remnant of Israel there....

A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant within them will return. (Isaiah 10:21-22)

although Paul said ALL Israel will be saved, this does not mean all born Israelite, but all who trust and obey God and respond to his invitation, and that God desires all Israel to be saved if possible , for God said :
"The Deliverer will come to Zion, he will remove rebellion from Jacob" (Isa 59:20).

Throughout the old testament and continuing in the new to the present day, God does not deliver or save anyone without a) faith, and b) obedience, ..of couse as we know from James that faith without works is dead, both a) and b) work hand in hand to complete the kind of saving faith necessary for salvation.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

While I do believe that a person can willing forfiet there salvation, I have no problem withy the view held by pure Calvinists. In fact, I believe Southern Baptists to have an excellent perspective on consecration, sanctification and regeneration (as passed on to them by the Puritans).

However, I truly believe that Calvin would have a fit if he could see how his views have been misapplied by many in the church today. Calvin would be the first to take a stand against the concept of "carnal christianity".

 

[NewBelieverofChrist]

whats carnal Christianity?

 

[DinoDillinger]

Yes, if you read Romans 9, 10 and 11 they are all talking about Israel. So this doesn't help your point at all, this is actually arguing against the idea God has a random selection. God is going to have mercy on ALL, EVERYONE, EVERY HUMAN.

Which lines up with...

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

So how do you explain?

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Actually the verse you posted here brought me to the verse I posted. Not that I understand it, but I actually was curious your take on it considering the verse you repeated here. Btw, I did not read your following post nor plan to, it's fruitless to debate the subject with you as pretty much anyone of your position.

So... Do you see a relation of the two verses?

 

[charisenexcelcis]

This is one reason why I do not believe in Total Depravity: The Gerasene demoniac (Luke 5:26, Matt 8:28 and Mark 5:1) meets Jesus. Instead of running away, he falls at his feet. Either he is already saved (why wouldn't the demons run away) or as an unsaved man he has the will power to seek his deliverance. I cannot accept the first, so I believe the second.

 

[DinoDillinger]

This is one reason why I do not believe in Total Depravity: The Gerasene demoniac (Luke 5:26, Matt 8:28 and Mark 5:1) meets Jesus. Instead of running away, he falls at his feet. Either he is already saved (why wouldn't the demons run away) or as an unsaved man he has the will power to seek his deliverance. I cannot accept the first, so I believe the second.

That's what the elect do in a sense. When a calvinist looks back, He sees God drawing Him the whole time and it not being a desire in himself to choose God in the first place.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

When scripture tells us that we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling", it means that we must literally "walk the walk" instead of merely "talking the talk" as so many seem to think these days. Utiimately, it does not matter what you "believe" inside your head, if you do not have the faith to actually live it out in your daily life then your "beleifs" amount to absolutely nothing.

This what the bible means when it is reads "faith without works is dead". By no means is anyone insinuating that we are saved by "works", in fact, quite the opposite is true. However, real faith is more than simply believing or agreeing with a ceratin concept or idea. Real real faith must walked out - it is a way of life - it requires that we physically live out our beliefs not only in thought but in deed as well. So when the bible tells us that "we are saved by grace through faith", Paul is referring to a faith that is so alive and absolute within us that it influences every decission we make, every thing we do and everything thing we say. This may friends is the biblical definition of "faith".

It is this kind of faith that Calvin believed in. It is this kind of faith that Calvin insisted offered eternal security. However, Calvin would be the first to take a stand against most popular modern doctrine, especially that of "carnal christianity", the idea that one can be a slave to sin and still be saved. Calvin would not hesitate to remind you that Christ himself insisted thaty one can not have two masters and that by embracing one, he is despising the other.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

That's what the elect do in a sense. When a calvinist looks back, He sees God drawing Him the whole time and it not being a desire in himself to choose God in the first place.

So it becomes semantics, applied afterward. Your saved, therefore you were once totally depraved. Your not saved, therefore you are totally depraved. "For with the heart man believes, toward righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, toward salvation." Romans 10:10. Where's the total depravity in this? I believe that no one comes to the Father without the drawing of the Holy Spirit, I don't believe that God is drawing animals to transform them into humans.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Actually the verse you posted here brought me to the verse I posted. Not that I understand it, but I actually was curious your take on it considering the verse you repeated here. Btw, I did not read your following post nor plan to, it's fruitless to debate the subject with you as pretty much anyone of your position.

So... Do you see a relation of the two verses?

Sorry I didn't understand your objection, care to elaborate? You questioned me about Romans 11:32 which, I would add is more arguing against the Calvinistic position than fighting for it. So you didn't read my post and you aren't going to read this one but you will continue to ask me questions, okay great I get it!

 

[MahogonySnail]

No one is totally depraved beyond reason and logical thought and ability to choose God. That is because every person is made in God's image and because of that there is a little good in everyone. God did not create human devils He created human beings. Total depravity basically means we are unable to save ourselves. It does not mean, in the extreme, we are unable to do or desire anything good at all.

 

[Pete_Martinez]

So God doesn't really mean this?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’


Read Romans 9, 10 and 11 and when you get to Romans 11 when it speaks of all of Israel being saved, it's talking about the faithful remnant, if you come to a different conclusion please share.

Right, that's exactly what I meant, I was against the idea that Israel is gone and beyond hope.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Right, that's exactly what I meant, I was against the idea that Israel is gone and beyond hope.

Oh, okay - totally agree then.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

While I do not believe in total depravity, there is one aspect of unconditional grace (the other side of the "depravity" coin) that I agree with. That there is nothing in me that inherently makes me more worthy than any other person. Beyond that, this aspect is one of those in which man is trying to understand/discern the manner in which his omniscience interacts with his divine purposes. My opinion is that this is to some degree a futile act. I am satisfied the God is love, God is light, God is holy. He acts in perfect integrity with his character.

 

[cookie39]

If your are truly saved, then you cannot fall away. It is in the Scripture.

Jeremiah 32:40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put fear in their hears, that they may not turn from me.

Matthew 18:12-14 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the 99 on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? and if he finds it, truly, I say to you,, he rejoices, over it more than over the 99 that never went astray. So is it not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

John 6:35-40 Jesus said to them." I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I WILL NEVER CAST OUT. For this I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should LOSE NOTHING of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and THEY WILL NEVER PERISH, and NO ONE WILL SNATCH THEN OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you WERE SEALED for the day of redemption.

I don't think I can explain better than that. The Bible makes it very very very clear. Yes people sin and fall into sin but if they are TRULY SAVED Christ will bring them back. I think the problem is people thinking they are saved when they truly aren't. It will all show in the fruit that is being shown in their life.

once saved is not always saved, as scripyures were giving to you to show you that,
God's everlasting Covenant is a promise that he made to Jesus . the first one was to Abrham that all the nations of the world was going to blessed through his seed. the flesh that was cut and blood that was shed as a testimony of this covenant was the circumcision of the man, Abrahm and all them who cam after him. the second one which is in and by Christ Jesus; was made for all man kind, (I don't have time to put the scriptures here but I will if anyone need them) Jesus Christ is the fulfilment of the first Covenant; and is the start and finish of the second, his flesh was cut and his blood was shed as a testiment of the second; the everlasting Covenant; in which God said that all nations shall be blessed; the seed of Abraham,

Mathew 18; if you see where it said "IF" he be found, it does not promised that he "WILL" be found. some sheep will go away and because they are so dumb they will fall off a cliff or even drown themselves. that is why sheep have to be watched day and night; they need a shepard, the rod of the shepard is used to get sheep out of places they got themselves in and some go so far where their shepard can not find them.. this is why Jesus used the shepard as one to look at as we would look at him as well as ourselves.

John 6:35... as you have capitalized " I WILL IN NO WISE CAST THEM OUT" no Jesus will not cast us out, but he did not Say " I WILL NOT LET YOU LEAVE" no one is saying that God would forsake anyone who come to him... But as the scriptures in Hebrews 6 and 4 that person WILLINGLY walked away and went back into the world; not a backslider, but he WILLINGLY walked away in his heart...please read it... it say that THERE IS " NO MORE" meaning, nothing, nawda, zilch, zero, never, ever, will there be a sacrifive for his sins AGAIN; next verse: for it is shamed to the Lord Jesus, and like " SACRIFICING CHRIST all over AGAIN" the word AGAIN, mean that the first time this person got saved; confessed with his mouth and believed with his heart Christ Jesus; " NO LONGER is EFFECTIVE" yes as it say he did this, he did not fake it, because it say he has tasted the Lord, he had an experiance with God, got to know the Lord and then " WILLINGLY WALKED AWAY, he is not lost, he didn't go astray, he did not backslide; he just left and he knew what he was doing.

no comdemnation for those who ARE in Christ Jesus, Not to Those who walked away,

Thay omit the Word; please read it in it's entierty.... so it will not be an mistake... If you want the truth.

read John chpt. 17...These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
{ THEY TRY TO USE THIS) 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
{AND THEY LEAVE THIS PART OUT} 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them

Jesus is talking about everyone. EVERYONE WHO WILL BELIEVE IN THE WORD, not a pacific person that God has giving Christ, but as he is saying here all those who will believe the Word of God; God gave he them, God did not make a promise to pick who will believe; the promise is to ALL those who will believe, hope this can be understand, I pray God , in Jesus Name.