Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him

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Dec 12, 2013
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#81
D
I've already addressed this (in some thread, I try to find it), but no, the bold ^ is not what was going on. What was going on (in their distraught minds) was [someone trying to convince them] "that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" [v.2] (NOT that they MISSED something, THAT was NOT what was on their distraught minds, but that "the DOTL [a time period, involving "judgments" and other very negative things] IS PRESENT" and Paul is telling them WHY this is NOT SO [and concludes on the other end with v.15 "believe US inSTEAD!"])
Day if the Lord is at HAND.......and Paul/Peter tie ALL THREE TOGETHER AS ONE DAY

Day of the LORD, Christ and GOD
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#82
but then again who is the antichrist persecuting if there are no christians left on the earth?
Here ^ is the very proof that one does not "see" what others have been presenting (for days, I might add, LOL)… because I've covered this point a number of times already. :D

[perhaps go back and read some of my posts a little more closely, that is, unless the above question was stated in jest, or something, hah :geek: ]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#83
D

Day if the Lord is at HAND.......and Paul/Peter tie ALL THREE TOGETHER AS ONE DAY

Day of the LORD, Christ and GOD
[re: 2Th2:2] Every usage of the word "G1764 - enistémi / enestēken " says "IS PRESENT" (not "is at hand"):

[7x] https://biblehub.com/greek/1764.htm

and it is here in the "PERFECT tense INDICATIVE" (recall what that means--I know you are a serious Bible student :) )




https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm


EDIT: for the readers :D "The perfect tense has to do with the completed progress of an action and its corresponding finished results. That is, it shows a present state of affairs (from the writer’s perspective), based upon an action in past time (when using the indicative mood)."
 
Feb 14, 2019
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#84
In what way would you say that Luke 22:30 [Matt19:28 (comp. Matt25:31-34 for its TIMING)] "[re: the twelve] shall sit on twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel" took place/was fulfilled/happened, in your view?
Matthew 1:16
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
1 Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Luke 1:31
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Many others of the Old Testament foretold of this that was to come and did come and fulfilled the prophecies and the requirement of the laws.

Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Matthew 1:16
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Revelation 20:4
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Joel 2:31-32...........the day of the LORD is as though a thousands years with the Lord, not with man with the Lord it is so Great and Terrible .
"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."
Acts 2:39
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

John the Baptist that was beheaded
Matthew 11:13-14
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Malachi 4:5-6
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Luke 1:17-18
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.


Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Psalm 110:1
A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psalm 110:2
The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Daniel 7:13-14
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Daniel 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.



It is everywhere in the Word of God from the prophets of the Old Testament to the fulfilling of them we read about in the New Testament. The Word had an Author and Finisher of His own Word and always from even the beginning it was so.
It
It is already done and it will stand for ever.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
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#85
“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.” (NIV)

The scripture above is one of those highly controversial and misinterpreted scriptures which has led many to the belief that the coming of the Lord and our being gathered together to Him, as taking place during the day of the Lord when the apostasy takes place and after the man of lawlessness is revealed. While others believe that the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him (rapture) takes place prior to the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness. The purpose of this teaching is in support the latter.
Simply put...It doesn't!

2Thess 2v1-12 clearly teaches a POST Tribulation Advent and Rapture! (Matt 13v37-50, 24v15-31, Titus 2v13, Rev 11v15-18)

You have completely mangled and twisted this Scripture to make it fit your heretical teaching!
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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#86
Here ^ is the very proof that one does not "see" what others have been presenting (for days, I might add, LOL)… because I've covered this point a number of times already. :D

[perhaps go back and read some of my posts a little more closely, that is, unless the above question was stated in jest, or something, hah :geek: ]
the answer is: those who missed the rapture. i know the answer.

but the idea is this: God wouldnt put the church through that time period, therefore He does the resurrection/rapture before that time period. i understand that part.

reason i asked what i did was not because i dont see. but because the point is what i said above^. if God wouldnt put the church through that time period, why would He put the so called tribulation saints through that time period, when they are believers in Jesus just like us today. they should be raptured up outta there too by that logic.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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#87
do most post-trib rapture believers teach israel and church is seperated? or its just one group of people in Jesus?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#88
Through MUCH TRIBULATION we must enter the Kingdom, but […]
No one is denying that. In fact, Paul was acknowledging their PRESENT and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE "tribulations and persecutions" they were already ENDURING, per 2Th1:4 (this was the setting and context of his having to write this second letter, as some were endeavoring to convince them that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT," and that [falsity] was BELIEVABLE and perfectly REASONABLE to them BECAUSE of what they were PRESENTLY and ONGOINGLY enduring!) No one is saying that "the Church which is His body" will not experience PLENTY of "tribulations and persecutions" (ever since its beginning in the first century and all through its ENTIRE existence on the earth! For sure!) We are not awaiting a certain future specific time period in order to experience it.

THAT was not the issue being covered here, but "how" our Rapture FITS, IN RELATION [time-wise] TO the time period known as "the Day of the Lord" (which involves [also] "judgments"). The text states that ONE THING must happen *FIRST* (before it will indeed "BE PRESENT" as they wrongly believed it was), "AND the man of sin be revealed" (this happens at the START of the trib, not later on it in). Neither of those two things had occurred or were in play.
 
Feb 14, 2019
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#89
Simply put...It doesn't!

2Thess 2v1-12 clearly teaches a POST Tribulation Advent and Rapture! (Matt 13v37-50, 24v15-31, Titus 2v13, Rev 11v15-18)

You have completely mangled and twisted this Scripture to make it fit your heretical teaching!
We were told there would always be tribulation in this world, if not than all are as One with the Lord and accepting of His Gospel without any insult of it or Him.
We were warned that any that hate Christ will also hate those who are His and hate His Word.

You can believe in a time that was not enough, half done or not presently obtained and in that lays wait for that which is sufficient unto you, acceptable unto you.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#90
reason i asked what i did was not because i dont see. but because the point is what i said above^. if God wouldnt put the church through that time period, why would He put the so called tribulation saints through that time period, when they are believers in Jesus just like us today. they should be raptured up outta there too by that logic.
Okay, that is a common question (and objection). The thing is, the context of the Thessalonians letters is "the Church which is His body" (the "IN Christ"), so that is who it is referring to when it says "For God hath not appointed US to wrath, but to obtain [obtaining] salvation [an eschatological salvation] by [means of] our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, [in order] that, whether we may watch, or [whether] we may sleep [these two words are in v.6 also; NOT referring to "DEATH" here! as in the previous chpt, a DIFFERENT Grk word], we should live together WITH [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION with' / 'IDENTIFICATION with' / 'IDENTIFIED with'] Him"--notice how this is the exact opposite of what those in the trib [are / will be] instructed to do, pertaining to His Second Coming to the earth! [FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom]

Make sense?

One of the things people get mixed up on (with regard to this) is that Ephesians 1:10 (in the phrase "that in the dispensation of the fulness of times") refers to the [future] MK age, not "this present age [singular]" (what some call "the Church age" or the like). It's a future thing, not a present thing.


[to be clear, PRESENTLY there is NO DISTINCTION, in "the body," between Jews and Gentiles: in our standing before God "IN CHRIST"... but in the trib, there will be (AFTER our Rapture takes place); and our Rapture is one of the primary instigators that helps bring Israel to their Messiah (their coming to faith WITHIN the trib years)]
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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#91
Okay, that is a common question (and objection). The thing is, the context of the Thessalonians letters is "the Church which is His body" (the "IN Christ"), so that is who it is referring to when it says "For God hath not appointed US to wrath, but to obtain [obtaining] salvation [an eschatological salvation] by [means of] our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, [in order] that, whether we may watch, or [whether] we may sleep [these two words are in v.6 also; NOT referring to "DEATH" here! as in the previous chpt, a DIFFERENT Grk word], we should live together WITH [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION with' / 'IDENTIFICATION with' / 'IDENTIFIED with'] Him"--notice how this is the exact opposite of what those in the trib [are / will be] instructed to do, pertaining to His Second Coming to the earth! [FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom]

Make sense?

One of the things people get mixed up on (with regard to this) is that Ephesians 1:10 (in the phrase "that in the dispensation of the fulness of times") refers to the [future] MK age, not "this present age [singular]" (what some call "the Church age" or the like). It's a future thing, not a present thing.


[to be clear, PRESENTLY there is NO DISTINCTION, in "the body," between Jews and Gentiles: in our standing before God "IN CHRIST"... but in the trib, there will be (AFTER our Rapture takes place); and our Rapture is one of the primary instigators that helps bring Israel to their Messiah (their coming to faith WITHIN the trib years)]
i got it thank you. when you said: "we should live together WITH [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION with' / 'IDENTIFICATION with' / 'IDENTIFIED with'] Him"--notice how this is the exact opposite of what those in the trib [are / will be] instructed to do, pertaining to His Second Coming to the earth! "

what are they instructed to do in the trib? which verse are we talking about ? i hope you have patience for me. but you dont have to.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#92
Simply put...It doesn't!

2Thess 2v1-12 clearly teaches a POST Tribulation Advent and Rapture! (Matt 13v37-50, 24v15-31, Titus 2v13, Rev 11v15-18)

You have completely mangled and twisted this Scripture to make it fit your heretical teaching!
The problem that we have today, is that there are many who are not teachable. I haven't mangled anything! I have identified that there is a difference between "the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him" vs. "the day of the Lord." The majority of people interpret both to be the same, which they are not. The coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him is the blessed hope. If that event was to take place after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness, it would be no blessed hope.

As I stated, the on-going problem is that people interpret these two events as being the same, which is how they come to the conclusion that the gathering of the church takes place after the apostasy and the man of lawlessness being revealed. They also ignore what scripture states about believers not being appointed to suffer God's wrath. That said, the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness takes place during the time of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And since believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be removed from the earth prior to said wrath.

Your "Post Tribulation" belief, would put the church through the entire wrath of God, through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Regarding this, You would do well to read Rev.17:14 which reveals the "Called, chosen and faithful followers (resurrected and caught up Christians) coming back to the earth with Christ to the earth to confront the beast, the kings of the earth and their armies. I'll post it below because those who disagree with the truth usually don't go an look at the scriptures being presented. Their purpose is just to support the false teachings they've adopted, which is really sad.

"They (the beast, kings and their armies) will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful followers.” (See Rev.19:11-21)

In further support that the church as already being having been resurrected and caught up prior to God's wrath, we have Rev.19:6-8 revealing the bride of Christ, which is another designation for the church, already in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen, white and clean.

"Hallelujah!

For our Lord God, the Almighty, reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory.

For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.

She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”

=============================================================================

Then, in Rev.19:14, we see the armies of heaven wearing the same fine linen that she was given at the wedding of the Lamb and is following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses. Simply put, if you're at the wedding of the Lamb and you're following Christ out of heaven to come back to the earth, then you're already in heaven.

Don't just dismiss this information, but look into it and stop just repeating what you hear or read like so many others do.

Now getting back to the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him just as 1 Thess.4:13-17 states, the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are still alive in Christ, will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Following that will begin the day of the Lord, which is the time of God's wrath and which is when the man of lawlessness is revealed.

Here's something to consider, in 2 Thess.2:2

"we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come."

Then regarding the above, Paul says:

"Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (the day of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness a is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

Now taking into consideration the scriptures above, do actually think that Paul is reassuring and comforting the Thessalonians that the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him will not take place until the apostasy and the man of lawlessness is revealed, which takes place during the time of God's wrath? What kind of comfort would that be for them? It would be no comfort at all. In fact, it would be the worst thing for them to hear!

From Paul's teaching, the Thessalonians knew that the order of events were first, the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him. And following that, the day of the Lord when the man of lawlessness is revealed. Therefore, because there were false teachers who were teaching that the day of the Lord had already begun, the Thessalonians were concerned that they had missed the gathering and also that they were now in the day of the Lord, caught in the time of God's wrath. However, as I pointed out, Paul comforts them by telling them that the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath had not yet come. And I might ad, the fact that Paul had responded to them by letter also demonstrates that the gathering of the church had not yet taken place, because he was still on the earth to respond to them.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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#93
Did you read the information that I put on the previous post about their exposure to the seals, trumpets and bowls? This demonstrates they are affected by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Here it is again. Please understand what I am saying in this post:

=========================================================================

"Never again will they hunger,

and never will they thirst;

nor will the sun beat down upon them,

nor any scorching heat."

Never again will they hunger:

This would be indicative of the 3rd seal rider on the black horse, where because of the shortage of food there will be world-wide famine, which will also affect the great tribulation saints. It would also be because the first and third trumpets, where a third of the trees are burned up (which would include fruit trees), as well as the second trumpet where a third of the fish over all the earth are killed, causing great food shortages, which would also affect the great tribulation saints.

Never will they thirst:

This would be indicative of the third trumpet where that star like a giant torch falls on a third of the rivers and fresh water causing many people to die from drinking it. This would also include the results of the second and third bowl judgments, where all of the oceans and fresh water is turned into literal blood. The GTS will also suffer from the lack of water.

Nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat:

The above is referring to the fourth bowl, where the sun is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat and searing them. This would also include the GTS simply because they will be on the earth.

=========================================================================

By the way, I never said that "saints are appointed to suffer wrath." They will simply be casualties because they will have not been believers or will have turned back to the world, living according to the sinful nature.

Yes, I agree with you that the GTS will suffer at the hands of the beast. However, as I have pointed out above and as you can see for yourself, the GTS will also be exposed to God's wrath. It will be impossible for them not to be affected by God's wrath, simply because they will be on the earth during that time. This is why Jesus warns believers to be faithful, watching and ready for His appearing to gather us, as described below:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
False.......Jesus was clear......God begins to deal with the tares first.......and even explains this in the parable of the wheat and tares....amd before you pull the PARABLE CARD....JESUS gives MEANING and fully explains it to his disciples in the very next chapter......You guys will NEVER GRASP THE TRUTH WHEN YOU WILLINGLY REJECT IT....

30Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”
They are collected after the harvest,not meticulously cut first while leaving the wheat in the ground.
Neither are harvested first as you are erroneously implying.
Read the parable.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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#94
actually its quite the opposite, pre-trib rapture has only been popular recently.

irenaeus and other ante-nicene church fathers were post-trib believers:


Tradition says that Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the apostle.

Irenaeus:

And they [the ten kings] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord [Against Heresies 5.26.1].

But he [John] indicates the number of the name now [the mark of the Beast], that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is [Against Heresies 5.30.4].

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth [Against Heresies 5.35.1]

Justin Martyr:

The man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians . . . [Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 110]


clearly, post-trib was the position of the early church. thats why its called "historical premillennialism" because it was the first belief to be around.

does this mean post-trib is right? it doesnt prove a thing, church fathers arent bible or apostles but i was just making a point in reply to you friend.
That has been debunked.
Plus the pretrib rapture was not catholic doctrine so the pretribs were considered heretics.
They and their writings were burned.
Even entire villages.
So none of the historic bases for escological doctrine applies.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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#95
1Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

if it can be shown that the wrath to come is not talking about hell, but the coming 70th week of daniel it proves pre-trib to be true. any takers?
Since he is talking about the rapture and second coming ,wrath would be the gt
 
Jul 23, 2018
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#96
actually its quite the opposite, pre-trib rapture has only been popular recently.

irenaeus and other ante-nicene church fathers were post-trib believers:


Tradition says that Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the apostle.

Irenaeus:

And they [the ten kings] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord [Against Heresies 5.26.1].

But he [John] indicates the number of the name now [the mark of the Beast], that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is [Against Heresies 5.30.4].

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth [Against Heresies 5.35.1]

Justin Martyr:

The man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians . . . [Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 110]


clearly, post-trib was the position of the early church. thats why its called "historical premillennialism" because it was the first belief to be around.

does this mean post-trib is right? it doesnt prove a thing, church fathers arent bible or apostles but i was just making a point in reply to you friend.
Btw,could you post one verse pointing to a post trib rapture?
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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#97
Btw,could you post one verse pointing to a post trib rapture?
yes. in short: 1 thessalonians 4:15-17 says it happens at the coming of the Lord. i believe there is no reason to make two comings of the Lord, and we know dead in Christ rise first. now we just need to see when do they rise? revelation 20:4 and john 6:40 locate that time for us, on the last day. therefore thats when rapture happens. this is also proven by 2 thessalonians 1:6-8 which puts the timing of rest to when Lord Jesus comes from heaven with his angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that dont obey the gospel and are punished with everlasting destruction. thats a timestamp.

here is a longer post that i made about it earlier in this topic:

just comparing verses wouldnt this put the exact timing of the rapture and resurrection right at the second coming:

1Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

here is what i note: dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, when? those who are left until the coming of the Lord. the words "who are left" indicates some tribulations and trials and those who survive until the end who happen to be left will be caught up.
so in order to figure out when does this resurrection occur, and the coming, i can look elsewhere in the bible for specific timing one of these is first resurrection in revelation 20 which is at the end and a few more are:

2Thessalonians 1:6-8 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

these two verses i note: it gives us teh exact timing when God grants relief to those persecuted, its when the Lord Jesus is coming from heaven with his mighty angels in fire, this is the second coming obviosuly. same time. day of joy for christians day of wrath and mourning for unbelievers because as Paul continues in that verse they are punished with everlasting destruction.
second verse says resurrection (1 thessalonians 4:15-17) occurs at the last day which matches revelation 20:4 also. three witnesses. Jesus repeats resurrection is last day many times.

this is much more simple and clear to have one coming instead of having to separate and figure out which coming is talked about. if there is only one. i also found a verse that supports that:

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
 

Melach

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#98
i also found out that in matthew 24:29-31 where it says sun shall be darkened this isnt the day of the Lord yet.

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

my notes: it says before that day of the Lord
 

TheDivineWatermark

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#99
i also found out that in matthew 24:29-31 where it says sun shall be darkened this isnt the day of the Lord yet.

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

my notes: it says before that day of the Lord

Joel 2:31 (same as Rev6:12, at SIXTH SEAL) is speaking of "BEFORE the GREAT" (meaning, before the "GREAT" portion OF "the Day of the Lord," rather than before the Day of the Lord in its ENTIRETY). This means that the SIXTH SEAL "moon into blood" [distinct from "moon shall not give her light"] takes place BEFORE the SECOND HALF of the trib (that is, IN the FIRST HALF).

It is not saying "before the DOTL" (as you have it), but "before the GREAT [portion of it]" ;)


Where it says, "moon shall not give her light," THAT is "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (that is, at the END of the trib; at the END of "the GREAT [portion OF it]"), and is a completely DISTINCT thing/effect (both time-wise, AND appearance-wise!)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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So it looks like this [depicted; note the two HALVES of the 7-yr trib separated by the mid-point "ll"]:

[DOTL starts-->(SEAL 1)]l----[moon into blood]----ll--[<GREAT>]--------l[moon shall not give her light]


The "moon into blood" is the SIXTH SEAL (in the FIRST HALF), and the "moon shall not give her light" is at the END of the trib ("after the tribulation of those days," that is, after "the GREAT" portion of it [see also Matt24:21 and Rev7:14])



One major flaw is the EQUATING of these, that are in every way distinct.