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P
T
I'll try, brother. First off, nobody from Adam on down is saved without the shed blood of Jesus, nobody. If God the Father had not seen the death of His Son when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge, Creation would have ended right then, in a thunderclap. But if knowledge of that fact is required, then we are not going to see very many Old Testament saints in heaven.
Now let me give you a hypothetical scenario: While Jesus was on earth, there were Jews spread beyond the known world, in South Africa, China, Russia, England and elsewhere. They were reading "Oh how love I thy law, it is my meditation day and night" and praying to the G-d of their fathers. Those Jews didn't know that Jesus was even on the planet so they worshiped JHVH as best they knew how from Torah and the Writings. They were saved by the covenant G-d made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I don't think any Bible- believing conservative theologian on earth would disagree with that.
But unknown to those diaspora Jews, the Lord Jesus went to the Cross for them, is resurrected and now sits at the right hand of Authority on high. Separated by thousands of miles from Jerusalem, they knew nothing about it.
Now here’s the question: Would those diaspora Jews who couldn't get their doctrine updated, instantly become lost the moment they came into the Christian era? If we say yes, then salvation depends on having the correct doctrinal knowledge, rather than on having a right heart towards God. If we say no, which I believe to be the correct biblical position, then Jews could be saved after the Cross without knowing Jesus as their Messiah. Point being, if a Jew could be saved for one millisecond into the Christian era without a knowledge of Jesus, then a Jew in that same spiritual condition could be saved 2000 years later. Since it is a scriptural given that God blinded the Jews to the Gospel, then like it or not, that condition does exist
So a better question would be, WHY did God blind them, rather than did it happen, because Romans 11:8 says so, but not so as those Jews would be lost, Romans 11:11.
Now let me give you a hypothetical scenario: While Jesus was on earth, there were Jews spread beyond the known world, in South Africa, China, Russia, England and elsewhere. They were reading "Oh how love I thy law, it is my meditation day and night" and praying to the G-d of their fathers. Those Jews didn't know that Jesus was even on the planet so they worshiped JHVH as best they knew how from Torah and the Writings. They were saved by the covenant G-d made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I don't think any Bible- believing conservative theologian on earth would disagree with that.
But unknown to those diaspora Jews, the Lord Jesus went to the Cross for them, is resurrected and now sits at the right hand of Authority on high. Separated by thousands of miles from Jerusalem, they knew nothing about it.
Now here’s the question: Would those diaspora Jews who couldn't get their doctrine updated, instantly become lost the moment they came into the Christian era? If we say yes, then salvation depends on having the correct doctrinal knowledge, rather than on having a right heart towards God. If we say no, which I believe to be the correct biblical position, then Jews could be saved after the Cross without knowing Jesus as their Messiah. Point being, if a Jew could be saved for one millisecond into the Christian era without a knowledge of Jesus, then a Jew in that same spiritual condition could be saved 2000 years later. Since it is a scriptural given that God blinded the Jews to the Gospel, then like it or not, that condition does exist
So a better question would be, WHY did God blind them, rather than did it happen, because Romans 11:8 says so, but not so as those Jews would be lost, Romans 11:11.
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P
A lot of chat, a lot of talk, a lot of bamboozling, but no scripture still.
So if you just need a right heart towards God to be saved, but don’t have to confess Jesus with your mouth and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, then any men can be saved if they have a right heat towards God, a nice thought but you don’t have any scripture to say that now do you?.
Jesus gave his life for the Jews and others so they could be saved.
The disciples gave their lives to bring Jesus to the Jews and others, so they could be saved.
If they are saved already by a right heart towards God what was the point in brining Jesus to the jews.
a right heart towards God was the OT way, but even then you still had to harken unto the prophets which was the voice of the lord, which was a condition of the covenant, why do you think God killed all of the Jews in the wilderness because their heart was not right towards God and they obeyed not his voice which was through Moses, and they still don’t.
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
So if you just need a right heart towards God to be saved, but don’t have to confess Jesus with your mouth and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, then any men can be saved if they have a right heat towards God, a nice thought but you don’t have any scripture to say that now do you?.
Jesus gave his life for the Jews and others so they could be saved.
The disciples gave their lives to bring Jesus to the Jews and others, so they could be saved.
If they are saved already by a right heart towards God what was the point in brining Jesus to the jews.
a right heart towards God was the OT way, but even then you still had to harken unto the prophets which was the voice of the lord, which was a condition of the covenant, why do you think God killed all of the Jews in the wilderness because their heart was not right towards God and they obeyed not his voice which was through Moses, and they still don’t.
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
T
[Q UO TE=peterT;904011]A lot of chat, a lot of talk, a lot of bamboozling, but no scripture still. So if you just need a right heart towards God to be saved, but don’t have to confess Jesus with your mouth and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, then any men can be saved if they have a right heat towards God, a nice thought but you don’t have any scripture to say that now do you?[/QUOTE]
Well, according to Romans 2, that is true. Oh, I can give you lots of Scripture, but I also want you to think, not just regurgitate the traditional Pablum so beloved by the masses. Here is just one scriptural example. Afrter you have decided you don't want to believe it because it's not in keeping with generally accepted doctrine, we'll go on to another.
The following parable appears in all three synoptic Gospels, (in Mat 9, Mark 2 and Luke 5), where Jesus tells the Jews what the future holds for them and the Gentile Church. Many don't want to accept the Lord's parable at face value, nevertheless, this is what He said:
Luke 5:33-39, KJV "Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink? And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber (the coming Church) fast, while the bridegroom (Jesus) is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them (after the resurrection), and then shall they fast in those days. And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment (the New Testament Gospel) upon an old (The Levitical code); if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine (of the Gospel) into old bottles (of the Old Testament Jews); else the new wine (of the Gospel) will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the (Old Testament Jews) bottles shall perish. But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."
Like I said, you won't want to believe it, but that's what Jesus said anyway: "But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."
Well, according to Romans 2, that is true. Oh, I can give you lots of Scripture, but I also want you to think, not just regurgitate the traditional Pablum so beloved by the masses. Here is just one scriptural example. Afrter you have decided you don't want to believe it because it's not in keeping with generally accepted doctrine, we'll go on to another.
The following parable appears in all three synoptic Gospels, (in Mat 9, Mark 2 and Luke 5), where Jesus tells the Jews what the future holds for them and the Gentile Church. Many don't want to accept the Lord's parable at face value, nevertheless, this is what He said:
Luke 5:33-39, KJV "Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink? And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber (the coming Church) fast, while the bridegroom (Jesus) is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them (after the resurrection), and then shall they fast in those days. And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment (the New Testament Gospel) upon an old (The Levitical code); if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine (of the Gospel) into old bottles (of the Old Testament Jews); else the new wine (of the Gospel) will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the (Old Testament Jews) bottles shall perish. But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."
Like I said, you won't want to believe it, but that's what Jesus said anyway: "But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."
P
No you can’t give me lots of scripture because there isn’t any, and there is one mediator between God and man and that is Christ jesus and no man comes to the farther but by him
None of those verses say the Jews are saved NOT one, it’s just your interpretation of those parables
Luke14:16Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
2000 years have passed since the Governor came to rule Israel , and who is he ruling over, us Christians spiritual Israel, Not Israel of the flesh
Matthew 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
It’s just religious nonsense designed by Jews of the Jewish faith, to put them at the forefront as Gods people and as his holy nation
I think you might call that infiltration of the Christian faith by the wicked one
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T
Do you understand anything I'm writing? Two posts ago I said, "Nobody from Adam on down is saved without the shed blood of Jesus, nobody. If God the Father had not seen the death of His Son when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge, Creation would have ended right then, in a thunderclap."
I knew you wouldn't believe that parable, so how about this quote from Torah . . .
Leviticus 26:33-45 (excerpts) "I will scatter you (Isrealites) among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you . . . and they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands . . . And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God . . . But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD."
So salvation for the Jewish people did not depend on their sanctification, but on the covenant-keeping faithfulness of God. After you have determined you don't believe those verses either, I'll post the next one.
I knew you wouldn't believe that parable, so how about this quote from Torah . . .
Leviticus 26:33-45 (excerpts) "I will scatter you (Isrealites) among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you . . . and they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands . . . And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God . . . But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD."
So salvation for the Jewish people did not depend on their sanctification, but on the covenant-keeping faithfulness of God. After you have determined you don't believe those verses either, I'll post the next one.
P
I never called you a fool Bro or even thought you were a fool. Stop magnifying it, and no dreamer queen stuff please, you are supposed to be a solder.
And yes you do post, when you don’t know what you are talking about.
And as for being civil I am civil. 1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
Did I make a whip and whip you out of the temple.
Did I call you child of the devil.
Did I call you enemy of all righteousness.
Did I say get behind me satan
Did I say your farther was the devil
Did I say you are stiff-necked
Did I say you hypocrites
Did I say you proselytes a twofold more the child of hell.
No, my behaviour has been well within the boundaries Bro.
And to say I am calling you a fool and I am not civil, Now that would be questionable behaviour .
And yes you do post, when you don’t know what you are talking about.
And as for being civil I am civil. 1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
Did I make a whip and whip you out of the temple.
Did I call you child of the devil.
Did I call you enemy of all righteousness.
Did I say get behind me satan
Did I say your farther was the devil
Did I say you are stiff-necked
Did I say you hypocrites
Did I say you proselytes a twofold more the child of hell.
No, my behaviour has been well within the boundaries Bro.
And to say I am calling you a fool and I am not civil, Now that would be questionable behaviour .
L
Ezra 6:17 KJV
(17) And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.
Ezra 8:25 KJV
(25) And weighed unto them the silver, and the gold, and the vessels, even the offering of the house of our God, which the king, and his counsellors, and his lords, and all Israel there present, had offered:
(17) And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.
Ezra 8:25 KJV
(25) And weighed unto them the silver, and the gold, and the vessels, even the offering of the house of our God, which the king, and his counsellors, and his lords, and all Israel there present, had offered:
T
Well, after you have publically aired all my private sins (and I can send you another private message in case you missed any), here's hoping we can get back to discussing the next quote. The following passage is to the physical Jews of Jeremiah’s day and about their physical descendants. It is not to or about the Gentile Church that has been grafted in.
Jeremiah 31:35-37 "Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD."
Since nobody can do any of the above, those verses remain in force and the Jews first, last and always will remain a nation before God that He never cast off. After you don't believe this one, I'll post another. <smile>
Jeremiah 31:35-37 "Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD."
Since nobody can do any of the above, those verses remain in force and the Jews first, last and always will remain a nation before God that He never cast off. After you don't believe this one, I'll post another. <smile>
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Some folks will take what is falsely called knowledge because dots connect, then come up with the solution to support or refute Holy Scripture. It is my conviction by the Holy Spirit that nothing more than the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation in Yeshua. Study of the Word led and instructed by the Holy Spirit is all that is necessary in order to walk the Way given and to be prepared for the unfolding of Yahweh, God's Word. It is very sad to see when some are destroying themselves with what is falsely called knowledge. It is easy to check the difference between truth and what is not true once one has been given the gift of salvation with faith.
Frankly, unless the Lord, God, gives an individualal the revelation it is only proceeding from another talking head. Read the Word and believe Yeshua, Jesus. He is just that personal. Do not purport anything as carved in stone if it is not of the Holy Spirit. Stick to the basics. Yeshua is humble, His yoke is easy.........others will not be so humble nor so easy.
Frankly, unless the Lord, God, gives an individualal the revelation it is only proceeding from another talking head. Read the Word and believe Yeshua, Jesus. He is just that personal. Do not purport anything as carved in stone if it is not of the Holy Spirit. Stick to the basics. Yeshua is humble, His yoke is easy.........others will not be so humble nor so easy.
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L
Ezra 6:17 KJV
(17) And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.
Ezra 8:25 KJV
(25) And weighed unto them the silver, and the gold, and the vessels, even the offering of the house of our God, which the king, and his counsellors, and his lords, and all Israel there present, had offered:
There are no lost tribes of Israel. These texts show all tribes present after the Babylonian captivity.
(17) And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.
Ezra 8:25 KJV
(25) And weighed unto them the silver, and the gold, and the vessels, even the offering of the house of our God, which the king, and his counsellors, and his lords, and all Israel there present, had offered:
There are no lost tribes of Israel. These texts show all tribes present after the Babylonian captivity.
T
Not exactly. Ezra tells us that all the tribes were represented in Jerusalem at his time, but 500 years later, James tells us that all the tribes were still dispersed . . .
James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."
And besides, my post didn't just pop out of my head like Minerva out of the forehead of Zeus, LOL, it is actual history that can be proven.
James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."
And besides, my post didn't just pop out of my head like Minerva out of the forehead of Zeus, LOL, it is actual history that can be proven.
P
Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
What I delight in is the word.
And you talks about Personal criticisms that do not belong on the forum, but you can do it behind the scenes??
Proverbs 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.
Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
What I delight in is the word.
And you talks about Personal criticisms that do not belong on the forum, but you can do it behind the scenes??
Proverbs 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.
P
Still does not say the Jews are saved without confessing Jesus with their mouth and believing in you heart that God has raised him from the dead.
Rom10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
May be we should change this verse to
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son (except for the Jews), the same hath not the Father, but he that acknowledgeth the Son (except for the Jews) hath the Father also.
1 John 5;11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
And by the way God has NOT cast of the Jews, the door is still open and the door is Jesus.
We must worship him worship him in spirit and in truth Not in spirit an error, for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John4:23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
See you can’t put new wine into old bottles (You being the old bottle) but you have to put THAT old wine into old bottles, so keep your old wine, because we have the new.
2000 years have passed since the Governor came to rule Israel , and who is he ruling over, us Christians, spiritual Israel, Not Israel of the flesh
Matthew 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
Rom10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
May be we should change this verse to
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son (except for the Jews), the same hath not the Father, but he that acknowledgeth the Son (except for the Jews) hath the Father also.
1 John 5;11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
And by the way God has NOT cast of the Jews, the door is still open and the door is Jesus.
We must worship him worship him in spirit and in truth Not in spirit an error, for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John4:23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
See you can’t put new wine into old bottles (You being the old bottle) but you have to put THAT old wine into old bottles, so keep your old wine, because we have the new.
2000 years have passed since the Governor came to rule Israel , and who is he ruling over, us Christians, spiritual Israel, Not Israel of the flesh
Matthew 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
ellis, you wrote:
"The following parable appears in all three synoptic Gospels, (in Mat 9, Mark 2 and Luke 5), where Jesus tells the Jews what the future holds for them and the Gentile Church. Many don't want to accept the Lord's parable at face value, nevertheless, this is what He said:
Luke 5:33-39, KJV "Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink? And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber (the coming Church) fast, while the bridegroom (Jesus) is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them (after the resurrection), and then shall they fast in those days. And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment (the New Testament Gospel) upon an old (The Levitical code); if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine (of the Gospel) into old bottles (of the Old Testament Jews); else the new wine (of the Gospel) will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the (Old Testament Jews) bottles shall perish. But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."
Like I said, you won't want to believe it, but that's what Jesus said anyway: "But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."
ellis, do you have any source for this interpretation of the parable of old and new?
i really can't say i've ever seen this passage used in such a way as to validate Dual Covenant theology.
"The following parable appears in all three synoptic Gospels, (in Mat 9, Mark 2 and Luke 5), where Jesus tells the Jews what the future holds for them and the Gentile Church. Many don't want to accept the Lord's parable at face value, nevertheless, this is what He said:
Luke 5:33-39, KJV "Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink? And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber (the coming Church) fast, while the bridegroom (Jesus) is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them (after the resurrection), and then shall they fast in those days. And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment (the New Testament Gospel) upon an old (The Levitical code); if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine (of the Gospel) into old bottles (of the Old Testament Jews); else the new wine (of the Gospel) will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the (Old Testament Jews) bottles shall perish. But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."
Like I said, you won't want to believe it, but that's what Jesus said anyway: "But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."
ellis, do you have any source for this interpretation of the parable of old and new?
i really can't say i've ever seen this passage used in such a way as to validate Dual Covenant theology.