Connecting the Dots . . .

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
T

Therapon

Guest
#61
And you talks about Personal criticisms that do not belong on the forum, but you can do it behind the scenes??
I was trying to talk to you privately, man-to-man, to suggest that personal insults should not be used to browbeat those with whom you disagree. My view was obviously not to your liking so you decided to make a public spectacle of my private message to you. So be it, but you would be well advised not to pursue it.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#63
ellis, you wrote:

"The following parable appears in all three synoptic Gospels, (in Mat 9, Mark 2 and Luke 5), where Jesus tells the Jews what the future holds for them and the Gentile Church. Many don't want to accept the Lord's parable at face value, nevertheless, this is what He said:

Luke 5:33-39, KJV "Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink? And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber (the coming Church) fast, while the bridegroom (Jesus) is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them (after the resurrection), and then shall they fast in those days. And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment (the New Testament Gospel) upon an old (The Levitical code); if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine (of the Gospel) into old bottles (of the Old Testament Jews); else the new wine (of the Gospel) will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the (Old Testament Jews) bottles shall perish. But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."

Like I said, you won't want to believe it, but that's what Jesus said anyway: "But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."


ellis, do you have any source for this interpretation of the parable of old and new?
i really can't say i've ever seen this passage used in such a way as to validate Dual Covenant theology.
no ellis...you clicked like on my remark...
you should unlike.
it was not a favorable remark.
what you've done with this parable is beyond words, at the moment.

i'm trying to see if i can find any other commentator or theologian who agrees with you.
they would be dispensational gap theorist dual covenant christian zionists so it might take awhile.

unless you can save me some time and show here you got the idea?
 
H

heirofChrist

Guest
#64
lol...i don't know if you're addressing me or not.
been here done all this.
the blindness was astounding to me when it happened.
but then i carefully studied the media presentation > i saw how the American people were mind controlled using the Trauma techniques perfected for so long - followed by the Patriotism card.

still happening today. right now!

i felt so bad for Americans...who still believe what the television says.
they were and are the targets of this mind control thing.
just the biggest lie ever sold!
amazing!

what can be done?

not much i guess if people are STILL using Scofield Bibles.
eh....
and thats exactly why i stay away from t.v, and "media" and all that... nothing but misleading things on their.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,289
6,580
113
#65
Nothing is done without Yahweh doing it or allowing it. Every heartbeat of every creature and every breath falls within these two requisites. Yes, it is a miracle to the unbeliever, but it is commonplace in the minds, hearts and souls of His children.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#66
i'm trying to see if i can find any other commentator or theologian who agrees with you.
they would be dispensational gap theorist dual covenant christian zionists so it might take awhile.
Take as much time as you like, but spiritual insight does not come from the theologians, it comes from the Holy Spirit.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#67
Take as much time as you want, but spiritual insight does not come from the theologians, it comes from the Holy Spirit.
"The following parable appears in all three synoptic Gospels, (in Mat 9, Mark 2 and Luke 5), where Jesus tells the Jews what the future holds for them and the Gentile Church. Many don't want to accept the Lord's parable at face value, nevertheless, this is what He said:

Luke 5:33-39, KJV "Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink? And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber (the coming Church) fast, while the bridegroom (Jesus) is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them (after the resurrection), and then shall they fast in those days. And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment (the New Testament Gospel) upon an old (The Levitical code); if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine (of the Gospel) into old bottles (of the Old Testament Jews); else the new wine (of the Gospel) will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the (Old Testament Jews) bottles shall perish. But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."

Like I said, you won't want to believe it, but that's what Jesus said anyway: "But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."
right.
i don't see that interpretation anywhere else.


"And no man putteth new wine (of the Gospel) into old bottles (of the Old Testament Jews); else the new wine (of the Gospel) will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the (Old Testament Jews) bottles shall perish"


can you explain why the Old testament Jews couldn't handle the Gospel ellis?
they would have burst open at the seams and perished?

seriously?

so what you are saying is this parable is proof the Jews were not, and are not, to be given the Gospel, in fact, they'll perish if they do receive it?

what am i missing here...help me out.
please.

let's get some more context:

Luke 5
Jesus Calls Levi

27After this he went out and saw a tax collector named Levi, sitting at the tax booth. And he said to him, “Follow me.” 28And leaving everything, he rose and followed him.

29And Levi made him a great feast in his house, and there was a large company of tax collectors and others reclining at table with them. 30And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” 31And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

A Question About Fasting
33And they said to him, “The disciples of John fast often and offer prayers, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours eat and drink.” 34And Jesus said to them, “Can you make wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them? 35The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in those days.” 36He also told them a parable: “No one tears a piece from a new garment and puts it on an old garment. If he does, he will tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old. 37And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. 38But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. 39And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, ‘The old is good.’”

so what do we have?

"And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying..."

"And they said to him, “The disciples of John fast often and offer prayers, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours eat and drink.”


who is Jesus talking to?
the grumbling Pharisees and their scribes, right?

so Jesus tenderly and purposely avoided giving them the new wine because it would have burst their bottles?
no...i don't think so.

do you have anything else on that?
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#68
[QUOTE=zone;905122]right. i don't see that interpretation anywhere else.

"And no man putteth new wine
(of the Gospel) into old bottles (of the Old Testament Jews); else the new wine (of the Gospel) will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the (Old Testament Jews) bottles shall perish"

can you explain why the Old testament Jews couldn't handle the Gospel ellis? they would have burst open at the seams and perished?

so what you are saying is this parable is proof the Jews were not, and are not, to be given the Gospel, in fact, they'll perish if they do receive it?

what am i missing here...help me out. please.[/QUOTE]


You could be asking the wrong questions. In my humble opinion, you should be asking: "Why did God blind the Jews in the first place?" Romans 11:8 states that He did, but why?"

First : God honors His own Word, "Out of the mouths of two or three witnesses shall anything be established." Throughout the Christian era there have two witnesses to God’s sovereignty, the Jewish People and the Gentile Church. They, not Enoch and Elijah, are the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3-4. If the Jews had not been blinded there wouldn’t have been two witnesses.

Second: Throughout the Old Testament we read that the Lord was going to restore Israel to the land. If the Jews had been open to the Gospel they would have been absorbed into the Church, ceased to exist as a separate people, and new Israel would have never been established.

Third: The day-years and time-times in Revelation could never have been fulfilled. In fact, all of that book (with the exception of those verses about Jesus’ return and the eternal kingdom of God) has already been fulfilled. But the brethren still clinging to the theories of the so-called "theologians" cant hear it. Jesus said, "when the comforter is come, He will lead you into all truth," but we don’t believe it.

It wasn’t that the Jews couldn’t "handle" the Gospel, and throughout the Christian era, the Holy Spirit has taken the blindness from some. God blinded them for His sovereign purposes.

We should always preach the Gospel. The Jews were just prevented from hearing it, by guess who? The Holy Spirit. Now that the state of Israel is a fact and the Jews are back home in the land, those reasons are no more and Jews in Israel are coming to Yeshua by the trainload.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,289
6,580
113
#69
Question: If the Two Witnesses lay dead in the plaza of the city that is allegorically called Sodom, that is, where our Savior was crucified, how can they be Jews and Christians? My thinking has always been they would be born as Jewish since no prophet of Biblical renown has ever been any other. There are those who come through the great tribulation who are not comprising these two. I will not say I know, but I have always taken these two to be two persons, prophets of Yahweh, who expose the evil one during their time of prophesying. They are the two olive trees mentioned in Zacharia. Please keep any reply as simple as possible, please.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#70
[QUOTE=zone;905122]right. i don't see that interpretation anywhere else.

"And no man putteth new wine
(of the Gospel) into old bottles (of the Old Testament Jews); else the new wine (of the Gospel) will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the (Old Testament Jews) bottles shall perish"

can you explain why the Old testament Jews couldn't handle the Gospel ellis? they would have burst open at the seams and perished?

so what you are saying is this parable is proof the Jews were not, and are not, to be given the Gospel, in fact, they'll perish if they do receive it?

what am i missing here...help me out. please.

You could be asking the wrong questions. In my humble opinion, you should be asking: "Why did God blind the Jews in the first place?" Romans 11:8 states that He did, but why?"

First : God honors His own Word, "Out of the mouths of two or three witnesses shall anything be established." Throughout the Christian era there have two witnesses to God’s sovereignty, the Jewish People and the Gentile Church. They, not Enoch and Elijah, are the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3-4. If the Jews had not been blinded there wouldn’t have been two witnesses.

Second: Throughout the Old Testament we read that the Lord was going to restore Israel to the land. If the Jews had been open to the Gospel they would have been absorbed into the Church, ceased to exist as a separate people, and new Israel would have never been established.

Third: The day-years and time-times in Revelation could never have been fulfilled. In fact, all of that book (with the exception of those verses about Jesus’ return and the eternal kingdom of God) has already been fulfilled. But the brethren still clinging to the theories of the so-called "theologians" cant hear it. Jesus said, "when the comforter is come, He will lead you into all truth," but we don’t believe it.

It wasn’t that the Jews couldn’t "handle" the Gospel, and throughout the Christian era, the Holy Spirit has taken the blindness from some. God blinded them for His sovereign purposes.

We should always preach the Gospel. The Jews were just prevented from hearing it, by guess who? The Holy Spirit. Now that the state of Israel is a fact and the Jews are back home in the land, those reasons are no more and Jews in Israel are coming to Yeshua by the trainload.
[/QUOTE]

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````






```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

Your theory seems to be build on a faulty understanding of the temp/partial blindness which was fulfilled
in the first century. The text said it was from unbelief. Also say all were cut off so that He could have mercy
on all.

God blinded/hardenned them no different than how He blinds/hardens anyone who refuses truth.
Check other bible examples there are many. example :

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12


[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 
Last edited:

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#71
We should always preach the Gospel. The Jews were just prevented from hearing it, by guess who? The Holy Spirit. Now that the state of Israel is a fact and the Jews are back home in the land, those reasons are no more and Jews in Israel are coming to Yeshua by the trainload.
● Most missionaries have deceptively convinced many Israelis that “Messianic Judaism” is a legitimate expression of our Jewish faith and totally avoid mention of their belief that Jesus is G-d. There are between 15,000 and 20,000 self-identified “Messianic Jews” currently living in Israel. Using Hebrew terminology, misappropriated Jewish symbols and distortions of traditional Jewish texts, many are active in missionary efforts across the country.

● There are more than 130 identified “Messianic Jewish” churches and groups in Israel. These missionary centers are largely funded and supported by evangelical Christian groups based outside of Israel. These organizations publicly boast of their desire to convert Jews to Christianity and, at the same time, contribute financially to Israeli society.

Alert: Missionaries Step Up Activities to Convert Jews in Israel < click jews for judaism

ellis,
statistics are almost completely unreliable for any meaningful discussion in this matter because all sides have different definitions and motivations. and then statistics are just plain unreliable.

by the same token, you can not just say "by the trainload" as proof your dispensational theory is true.

looking at rough figures i just pulled up now (provide more precision if you have it):

jews for judaism reports 20,000 messianic jews in israel.

Alert: Missionaries Step Up Activities to Convert Jews in Israel < click

for now, let's say 20,000 is the figure (praise God for every soul).
let's say that's current.

Jewish Virtual Library reports Jewish Israeli population at nearly 6 million as of 2012

they also say "The Christian population grew 1.3% " < whatever that means (do they include messianic jews?)

Latest Population Statistics for Israel (September 2012) < click


so, approx. 60 years of Israel existing (and unending bloodshed on the Land, which God condemns)....and we have an estimated 20,000 jews who have converted to Christianity there? out of 6 million jews?

that's "a trainload"?

there are just obviously far more jews [on a per capita basis] who have converted to christianity in the west and elsewhere around the world.

what does being in The Middle East, particularly the State of Israel, and converting to Christianity have to do with eschatology?

namely, an eschatology/soteriology which both wants to say 1) jews have all been judicially blinded for 2000 years (but then goes on to say not all, a few still get saved)....and 2) once they return to the Land (while still blind!) where the Land is being polluted with blood and idolatry (the very reasons the israelites were always expelled - not returned), they will for some reason related to the LAND have 'the veil' removed.

like.....it's ludicrous.

look at the numbers alone...your theory doesn't add up. what 'trainload'?
look at the numbers throughout time and throughout the nations and you see the real pattern - always a remnant of jews enter the New Covenant, becoming Christians!

its' only become fashionable this century to make any real distinction between gentile christians and jewish christians!
that's why ppl can just gloss over the fact jews have always been saved - they identified as Christians!

anyways....i'd like to explore this idea more.
i'll end this post here.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,289
6,580
113
#72
Regarding the Jews being blinded, the Children of Israel, while they were in the wilderness, were disobedient. By their disobedience salvation was gained by the nations. This takes some thought, but not a whole lot of strain. Can anyone imagine the consequences were the Children of Israel perfect, always? A lot to consider I would say.........
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#73
ellis:
before this gets much further, your theory is also problematic in that you can not prove who is of ancient israel and who is not.
even jews have no way of tracing their lineage beyond the Middle Ages.

if you have any evidence (don't give me the sorry DNA studies - when they disinter King David and we see a match i'll consider it) that the mixed races of jews we see today are ancient israelites i'd like to see that as well. - i'll save you some time - there is no evidence.

the Khazarian theory can be used both ways, and in fact was denied and suppressed by jews themselves for over a thousand years.

so the racial theory also has no evidence.

just saying "i don't who they are but God does" is also ludicrous.
to suggest God has ordained that in our day, Post Calvary Christians and others would be murdered so that jews could hold onto Land is frightening.
in order to do this, you have to insert GAPS into the Narrative that just aren't there.

more serious leaks in the boat

Judaism is Talmud....not Moses - there's another hole in your boat.
 
Last edited:
T

Therapon

Guest
#74
Question: If the Two Witnesses lay dead in the plaza of the city that is allegorically called Sodom, that is, where our Savior was crucified, how can they be Jews and Christians? My thinking has always been they would be born as Jewish since no prophet of Biblical renown has ever been any other. There are those who come through the great tribulation who are not comprising these two. I will not say I know, but I have always taken these two to be two persons, prophets of Yahweh, who expose the evil one during their time of prophesying. They are the two olive trees mentioned in Zacharia. Please keep any reply as simple as possible, please.
It is faulty exegesis to use Old Testament scriptures to define New Testament figures when there are New Testament definitions that fit perfectly. Incorrectly identifying the Two Witness is a prime example of that very common error.

Revelation 11:3-4
"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candle-sticks standing before the God of the earth."

New Testament definition of Candlesticks

Revelation 1:20
"The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

If the Seven Candlesticks in Revelation 1 are seven churches, then the Two Candlesticks in Revelation 11 are two churches unless God changes the definition of candlesticks somewhere between Rev 1 and Rev 11. He did not so the candlesticks in Revelation are churches!

New Testament definition of Olive Trees

Romans 11:24-25
"For if thou (Gentile believers) wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree (the Jewish people): how much more shall these natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel (the Jewish people), until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in (the Gentile Church)."

The cultivated olive tree is the Jewish people; The wild olive tree is the Gentile believers; and thus the Two Witnesses to the Christian Era are . . . the Jewish People and The Gentile Church!

Revelation 11:3
"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

Then God through the prophet Ezekiel tells that a prophetic day should be understood as a year . . .

Ezekiel 4:6
"And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year."

Islam began building the blasphemous Dome of the Rock on Gods Temple Mount in 688AD. The new nation of Israel was established in 1948 . . .

688+1260=1948

The 1260 days started AFTER 688AD. Why? Because prior to the construction of the Islamic Dome of the Rock, both Jews and Gentiles could could have worshiped on the Temple Mount. In fact, Jerusalem was the home of the great Coptic Church. Only after the Islamic Jihad of the 7th Century were Christians and Jews prevented from worshiping on the site.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#75
The cultivated olive tree is the Jewish people; The wild olive tree is the Gentile believers; and thus the Two Witnesses to the Christian Era are . . . the Jewish People and The Gentile Church!
no ellis.
the wild olive tree is unsaved pagan gentiles < wild by nature, not cultivated. one separate tree.

the saved gentile branches are removed from their wild tree and grafted into the good olive tree - believing isrealites: and The New Covenant.

the unbelieving israelites were cut off of the Covenant Tree < cut off means what it says.

and gentiles were cut out of their own tree to be saved. they were grafted into the good tree.

There is only ONE TREE. < the cultivated tree with faithful abiding jewish branches remaining and mercifully saved wild branches brought over from another tree and grafted in!

if you're going to use two olives trees, one gentile and one jewish - they are not both Christian witnesses of any sort. what on earth have you done with all the dead wood ellis? all the cut-off branches?

the natural branches Paul talked about in his day were said to be able to be grafted back in again IF they continued not in unbelief.
he nevers says "oh 2000 years from now the natural branches will be grafted back in whether they know it or not"

another hole in your theory.
 
Last edited:
T

Therapon

Guest
#76
LOL, 70 years ago I saw Scripture just like you guys do. Matter of fact, those were the kind of doctrines I was taught in Bible College. Years of further study made me abandom them. I will state it flat out, none of you understand Revelation and you want to know why?

First off: What Does the word "Revelation" mean?

Dictionary definition: "Revealing knowledge that was previously unknown. The uncovering of obscure or hidden truth. The disclosure or conveying of divine purpose."

Revelation by its very name should be a revelation!!! In other words, it should reveal truths to us that we don’t already know! But do we go to Revelation that way? NO! We go to Revelation with our end-time traditions firmly in place.

To learn from Revelation, we must enter the book with an open mind and allow the Lord to replace our debatable traditions with truth!

Do we do that? No, and the Lord can teach us nothing from Revelation until we do. Of course you can learn lots from the dubious commentaries, but that is all you’ll have, the doctrines of men.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#77
It is faulty exegesis to use Old Testament scriptures to define New Testament figures when there are New Testament definitions that fit perfectly.
Revelation 11:3
[/B] "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

Then God through the prophet Ezekiel tells that a prophetic day should be understood as a year . . .

Ezekiel 4:6
"And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year."
but i thought you just said:

It is faulty exegesis to use Old Testament scriptures to define New Testament figures when there are New Testament definitions that fit perfectly.
Ezekiel 4 c. 593 BC.
Seige of Jerusalem foretold.

are you seriously going to just excise everything out of History and drag it forward to our future?

OH MY STARS...

how can people continue to do this in good conscience?

Ezekiel was a prophet to the israelites in Babylon ellis.

The siege is a calamity of 390 days, in which God reckons for the iniquity of 390 years; justly therefore d they acknowledge that God had punished them less than their iniquity deserved, Ezra 9:13.

why did you just severe Judah's punishment, ellis, and bring it forward int time like that?
this sleight-of-hand is unacceptable.

BOTH Houses returned from captivity exactly as Daneil 9 says they would. they were in place, in the land, in time for Jesus.
both the penitent remnant AND the cult of the Pharisees (with their Oral Traditions) - who would conspire with Pilate to Crucify Jesus.

ezekiel's prophesies of the return HAPPENED already. his visions of his temple are the church, new jeruslame, the same city John saw. the assembly of the faithful enrolled in heaven.

this tricky business of separating the ten tribes from the other two (Benjamin and Judah) is horrible.

here's what we ended up with - white-skinned 'jews' and 'non-jews' all claiming to be Israel or Judah.
its' completely unacceptable, and outrageous on every level.

how is it we just skip over the Greatest Time in the History of Mankind - the Incarnation; Life; Death and Resurrection of the Lamb of God according to God's timeline.....we just ignore it! we brish it aside, or cut it in half...we undo what He did - FOR SOME.

for no good reason.....although there is a reason - 100% carnal:

Islam began building the blasphemous Dome of the Rock on Gods Temple Mount in 688AD. The new nation of Israel was established in 1948 . . .

688+1260=1948
ANY Temple on the Mountain will be a blasphemy ellis.
anything there at all.

It is Finished. for people to say it is not, for jews, is the A-word on steroids.

John 2
Jesus Cleanses the Temple

13The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. 15And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. 16And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.” 17His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for your house will consume me.”

18So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” 19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Jesus is The Temple; His people are the Temple; Jesus is The Stone which the builders rejected; He is The Stone cut without hands that smashed Daniel's matel-man for all who will have Him as King; His temple is the Mountain that is covering the whole earth - the Church, jew and gentile - no difference.

The 1260 days started AFTER 688AD. Why? Because prior to the construction of the Islamic Dome of the Rock, both Jews and Gentiles could could have worshiped on the Temple Mount. In fact, Jerusalem was the home of the great Coptic Church. Only after the Islamic Jihad of the 7th Century were Christians and Jews prevented from worshiping on the site.
how is it we just deny what is written?

John 4
Jesus and the Woman of Samaria
1Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2(although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), 3he left Judea and departed again for Galilee. 4And he had to pass through Samaria. 5So he came to a town of Samaria called Sychar, near the field that Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6Jacob’s well was there; so Jesus, wearied as he was from his journey, was sitting beside the well. It was about the sixth hour.a

7A woman from Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give me a drink.” 8(For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.) 9The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 10Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” 11The woman said to him, “Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock.” 13Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again.b The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” 15The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water.”

16Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” 17The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.” 19The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” 21Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”
 
Last edited:

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#78
LOL, 70 years ago I saw Scripture just like you guys do. Matter of fact, those were the kind of doctrines I was taught in Bible College. Years of further study made me abandom them. I will state it flat out, none of you understand Revelation and you want to know why?

First off: What Does the word "Revelation" mean?

Dictionary definition: "Revealing knowledge that was previously unknown. The uncovering of obscure or hidden truth. The disclosure or conveying of divine purpose."

Revelation by its very name should be a revelation!!! In other words, it should reveal truths to us that we don’t already know! But do we go to Revelation that way? NO! We go to Revelation with our end-time traditions firmly in place.

To learn from Revelation, we must enter the book with an open mind and allow the Lord to replace our debatable traditions with truth!

Do we do that? No, and the Lord can teach us nothing from Revelation until we do. Of course you can learn lots from the dubious commentaries, but that is all you’ll have, the doctrines of men.
ellis.
The Unveiling of Jesus Christ - The Revelation of Jesus Christ which He made known to His servants through JOHN.

JOHN
JOHN
JOHN.

it's not veiled.
it's unveiled.

seal not the words of this book.

~

if you want to consider a dual fulfillment, i'm about to post something for your consideration ellis
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,289
6,580
113
#79
Jesus, Yeshua, teaches the Law and the Prophets spoke of Him. In the 22nd chapter of Genesis, Abraham said to Isaac, "God will provide, Himself, a lamb for the offering." Then, when the Angel of the Lord stopped Abraham from executing his son, his only son, Abraham espied a ram caught by its horns in a thicket, and the ram was offered up.
Although it seems Abraham's words were in error, I have always believed the Lamb he spoke of is Yeshua, Jesus. Now is this confusing Old Testament figures with those of the New?
Most people believe the two witnesses of Revelation are indeed the same two as the olive trees in Zacharia 4. I am by no means stating unequivocally that what I came to understand and believe is the way all must understand, however I will maintain this understanding until something convinces me otherwise.
I confess, the reference to the men given to Joshua the High Priest of Zacharia 3 I believe to be the apostles, but whether I am correct or not is superfluous in regard to our salvation. In that regard all one need know and profess is Yeshua crucified for our sins' expiation.

Jesus is returning soon, I believe, amen-
 
Last edited:

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#80
if you want to consider a dual fulfillment, i'm about to post something for your consideration ellis
remember, i'm not going to let the corruption of Genesis 12 stand - "God promised to bless those who bless The State of Israel and curse those who curse Israel [CUFI et al]"....that was said to Abram - about Abram.


consider this alternative if you want multiple fulfillments:


Hagel: US Needs to 'Reverse Optics' in Relationship With Israel

Chuck Hagel: In order to restore credibility as an honest broker in Mideast, US has to "reverse optics" in relationship with Jewish state.

By Rachel Hirshfeld

Hagel: US Needs to 'Reverse Optics' With Israel - Global Agenda - News - Israel National News < click

~

Revelation 17
The Great Prostitute and the Beast

1Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” 3And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. 5And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” 6And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus....

...15And the angelc said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. 16And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”


that great city was Jerusalem once already.

i intensely pondered ALL futurist and multiple fulfillment theories and speculations. including yours, ellis.

if there are any...we all need to consider the whole lot carefully.
we've been duped.

i doubt Hagel means it, or that it will come to anything anyways.
it's all the same old game....

but i'm suggesting to you, ellis, that God cares about what is said and done in His Name far more than what gentile[? - who can say, ellis?], unsaved arabs in islam do.

and if we are going to do futurism, there is easily more than one way to do it.
in fact, it was easily done: the Scofield Bible. if people don't know about this by now, well - whatever.

no matter how you wrap this package, Jesus made one thing completely clear...how we undo this i can not fathom:

John 8:19
"Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
 
Last edited: