Contradiction of WORDS

Powemm · Oct 22, 2014

I was just reading the topic... "contradiction of words"..... every word will be accounted for since god is the true account holder and keeper of them.. given to us as a gift to use... each word, like a piece of fruit is either good all the way through, or might look good on the outside but filled inside with worms, or just plain rotten fruit.. increasing fruit inspection would do the body a lot of good

newbirth · Oct 22, 2014

dcontroversal said:

sometimes the best advise a man can get is that which he gives to others.....what you say is the opinion of false teachers and not indicative of anything in scripture.....but they are teachings of wood and stubble which will not stand the test of fire...
That scripture speaks about believers causing division .....

When you are jealous and quarrel among yourselves, aren’t you influenced by your corrupt nature and living by human standards? [SUP]4 [/SUP]When some of you say, “I follow Paul” and others say, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting like sinful humans?

Paul is the master builder... as an evangelist...laying solid foundation

[SUP]10 [/SUP]As a skilled and experienced builder, I used the gift[SUP][a][/SUP] that God gave me to lay the foundation for that building

Others build as pastors and teachers......like Apollos

However, someone else is building on it. Each person must be careful how he builds on it. [SUP]11 [/SUP]After all, no one can lay any other foundation than the one that is already laid, and that foundation is Yeshua Christ. [SUP]12 [/SUP]People may build on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw.

whatever is built will be tested on that day.... if what a person built survives....

[SUP]13 [/SUP]The day will make what each one does clearly visible because fire will reveal it. That fire will determine what kind of work each person has done. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If what a person has built survives, he will receive a reward. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If his work is burned up, he will suffer the loss. However, he will be saved, though it will be like going through a fire.

clearly he is talking about those who build on the foundation that Paul laid....

dcontroversal · Oct 22, 2014

newbirth said:

Actually it would be better for you to take the solid advice I gave you as EVERY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE MADE MANIFEST is the language used and is indicative of the WORKS WE DO AS A BELIEVER and has nothing at all to do with doctrine.....SO....if you choose to reject my solid, sound advice to re-evaluate your belief proves that you are not open to learning and instruction...so....take it however you choose to take it....

Work=ergon=to work, toil, deeds, acts, doing, labor<-----nothing about doctrine or teaching....again I suggest you study a bit more and come to solid conclusions based upon facts instead of opinion, conjuncture, supposition and or guesses!

kepha · Oct 22, 2014

dcontroversal said:

1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. 1 Cor. 3:11 does not trump or over-ride or contradict Eph. 2:20 because usage of a single metaphor suits your agenda. It's an abuse of scripture. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.

newbirth said:

According to who? The whole chapter is about purification of the soul after death, not about doctrines. You have to prove Paul is talking about works in this life, not after death, and if you can't, your objections about a post-death purification falls apart.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
"It will be revealed" when is that? Look up "for the Day will disclose it" in some lexicon, I can't be bothered.

dcontroversal said:

Yea, I get it. Less than perfect believers get no mercy or justice from God, your system has eliminated it. That's why the so called reformers had to invent "faith alone".

dcontroversal · Oct 22, 2014

kepha said:

1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. 1 Cor. 3:11 does not trump or over-ride or contradict Eph. 2:20 because usage of a single metaphor suits your agenda. It's an abuse of scripture. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.

According to who? The whole chapter is about purification of the soul after death, not about doctrines. You have to prove Paul is talking about works in this life, not after death, and if you can't, your objections about a post-death purification falls apart.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
"It will be revealed" when is that? Look up "for the Day will disclose it" in some lexicon, I can't be bothered.

Yea, I get it. Less than perfect believers get no mercy or justice from God, your system has eliminated it. That's why the so called reformers had to invent "faith alone".

I suggest you re-evaluate it in the light of the truth and what is being said instead of a tainted theology....as the word is works..it is applied unto saved members of the church that was at Corinth and involves both faithful and unfaithful believers as goes to there being MANY vessels in the same house...some to honor...some not as honorable and some to dishonor....

elf3 · Oct 22, 2014

kepha said:

1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. 1 Cor. 3:11 does not trump or over-ride or contradict Eph. 2:20 because usage of a single metaphor suits your agenda. It's an abuse of scripture. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.

Kepha before I get to the sola scriptura ( I want to write it out first).

I did a cool little study on this, this morning.

This is kinda paraphrase from what I studied. Jesus is the cornerstone which holds our faith together right? Paul refers to himself as the foundation. Think about this...the cornerstone is the stone that holds the building together. Paul and the other Apostles built around the cornerstone thus they are the foundation with which the church was built. All centered of Christ. All the Apostles taught the Gospel of Jesus and thus built (laid the foundation) of the church.

After I studied this it kinda makes sense. What yinz think?

elf3 · Oct 22, 2014

Kepha actually as I was trying to write on sola scriptura I got kinda sidetracked lol. Ended up being a neat study.

newbirth · Oct 22, 2014

dcontroversal said:

Notice the context...
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we are God's fellow-workers: ye are God's husbandry, God's building.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which was given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder I laid a foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let each man take heed how he buildeth thereon.

newbirth · Oct 22, 2014

kepha said:

you could not be speaking about 1Cor3.....the man is talking about strife in the church...
[h=1][/h] 3 However, brethren, I could not talk to you as to spiritual [men], but as to nonspiritual [men of the flesh, in whom the carnal nature predominates], as to mere infants [in the new life] in Christ [[SUP][a][/SUP]unable to talk yet!]
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not yet strong enough [to be ready for it]; but even yet you are not strong enough [to be ready for it],
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For you are still [unspiritual, having the nature] of the flesh [under the control of ordinary impulses]. For as long as [there are] envying and jealousy and wrangling and factions among you, are you not unspiritual and of the flesh, behaving yourselves after a human standard and like mere (unchanged) men?

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For when one says, I belong to Paul, and another, I belong to Apollos, are you not [proving yourselves] ordinary (unchanged) men?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Ministering servants [not heads of parties] through whom you believed, even as the Lord appointed to each his task:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I planted, Apollos watered, but God [all the while] was making it grow and [He] gave the increase.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So neither he who plants is anything nor he who waters, but [only] God Who makes it grow and become greater.

elf3 · Oct 23, 2014

Kepha,

Ok when trying to write up sola scriptura I couldn't get what I wanted to say in the correct words. For my explanation of sola scriptura I am gonna use the words of James R. White. Now this in no way means I follow him but, he explains it better than I could and explains what and how I wanted.

"As we will note as we define sola scriptura, this is not a claim, for instance, that there is no church or that there is no Spirit. The title does not suggest that Scripture, apart from the Spirit, outside the church, is God's only means of leading His people. It is, however, saying that Scripture is utterly unique in its nature as God-breathed revelation (nothing else is God-breaded); it is unparalleled and absolute in its authority; and it is the sole infallible rule of faith for the church. It is both a positive statement, asserting the supremacy and uniqueness of the Word, and a negative one, denying the existence of any other rule of authority on the same level."

"Scripture plainly acknowledges the concept of tradition and recognizes as an inevitably that as humans pass things on to one another, some form of tradition is going to exist. For example, Paul speaks of having "passed on" the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:3 NIV), using a verb directly related to the activity of delivering a tradition. However, what is equally clear (though normally ignored by those who promote a form of Scripture + tradition = authority) is that all forms of tradition, even those that claim divine origin and sanction, are to be subjected to the higher authority of the enscripturated Word. Jesus taught that even those traditions the Jews believed came from Moses were to be subjected to correction by Scripture (Matt 15:1-9; Mark 7:5-13). When Paul tells the Thessalonians to hold to the "traditions" they were taught by word or by letter, it's obvious in context that he is referring to the gospel itself, which had been both preached to them (when Paul was with them) and written to them (in his first epistle). Tradition is never said to be "God-breathed" and is never exalted to a place of equality with (or supremacy over) the Scriptures. "

Sorry I had to use someone else's writing but it was the easiest way for me to explain.

dcontroversal · Oct 23, 2014

newbirth said:

I will post the definition of the word one more time and if you choose to reject the INSPIRED WORD OF GOD tells me all
that I need to know....Keep denying the word WORK and substituting doctrine and it will continue to lead you astray!

Work=ergon=to work, toil, deeds, acts, doing, labor<-----nothing about doctrine or teaching....again I suggest you study a bit more and come to solid conclusions based upon facts instead of opinion, conjuncture, supposition and or guesses!

newbirth · Oct 23, 2014

dcontroversal said:

in that whole chapter you see one word "work"...that's called tunnel vision...
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So then neither is he that planteth(Paul) anything, neither he that watereth(Apollos); but God that giveth the increase.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now he that planteth(Paul) and he that watereth(Apollos) are one: but each shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For we are God's fellow-workers: ye are God's husbandry, God's building.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which was given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder I(Paul) laid a foundation; and another(Apollos) buildeth thereon. But let each man(Apollos or any other) take heed how he buildeth thereon.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]But if any man(Apollos or any other) buildeth on the foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble;

[SUP]13 [/SUP]each man's(Apollos or any other) work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man's(Apollos or any other) work of what sort it is.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man's(Apollos or any other) work shall abide which he built thereon, he(Apollos or any other) shall receive a reward.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man's(Apollos or any other) work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he(Apollos or any other) himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.

dcontroversal · Oct 23, 2014

newbirth said:

Let EVERY MAN take HEED how HE BUILDS
EVERY MAN'S WORK WILL BE TRIED

WISE MEN BUILD ON THE FOUNDATION OF STONE
FOOLS BUILD ON SAND

THE CONTEXT Is our WORKS
WRITTEN TO SAVED MEMBERS of the CHURCH at CORINTH
INVOLVES FAITHFUL and UNFAITHFUL saved....VESSELS OF HONOR and VESSELS OF DISHONOR

SO....keep your own tunnel vision and keep rejection context, words used in context and a limited view...no matter to me!

justamanda · Oct 23, 2014

Have you ever worked for something and failed? That is what Christianity would be without Christ. We are still given commandments in spite of our debt for sin being payed. Jesus said the highest commandment was to Love the Lord God with ALL OF YOURSELF. You will fall short but are still commanded to work towards this commandment. "Accepting Jesus" means believing in his teachings. Believing means following commandments and appreciating the suffering he endured by following his example.

dcontroversal · Oct 23, 2014

justamanda said:

I am not working for my salvation as Christ has already done the work....We cease from our OWN LABOR TO ENTER INTO HIS REST....Biblical salvation is based upon faith and grace....I agree that a saved child of God will follow the word of God as best they can..however...my ETERNAL SALVATION AND JUSTIFICATION is based upon the perfect FAITH OF CHRIST--> GALATIANS 3:16-24

Notice the word OF in the Galatians text!

newbirth · Oct 23, 2014

dcontroversal said:

you strip the context from here....
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For when one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not men?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]What then is Apollos? and what is Paul? Ministers through whom ye believed; and each as the Lord gave to him.

the issue was division in the church where some were claiming to be of Paul ,Apollos or Cephas...

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Wherefore let no one glory in men. For all things are yours;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
[SUP]23 [/SUP]and ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

kepha · Oct 23, 2014

newbirth said:

dcontroversal said:

This has nothing to do with 1 Cor. 3.

newbirth said:

This has nothing to do with 1 Cor. 3

kepha · Oct 24, 2014

elf3 said:

Wrong. the Apostles are God-breathed. John 20:22

Wrong and wrong. The Bible is authoritive, but without a divinely appointed interpreter you end with chaos (as in Protestantism) the Bible is the primary source for doctrine, but their is nothing in the bible that says it is the exclusive source, and nothing that says its text is the sole infallible rule of faith for the church. What White means is that HIS interpretation is infallible. "other rule of authority on the same level" is a misrepresentation.

Yea, he says that after losing so many debates on Tradition.

The Great White Lie. He fails to understand the relationship between the three, and has re-invented "authority".

A half truth. The enscripturated word had to be proven inspired by the Church. With 15 "gospels" and 30 "books of acts" floating around, there had to be an authoritive mechanism to sort out the mess. Apostolic Teaching, which contains both Tradition and the enscriptuated word, kept it in harmony. White thinks the Bible fell out of the sky.

Obvious in context? Paul had a copy of the 4 Gospels? If tradition is so inferior why does the bible always list it ahead of scripture???

That's ok. I do it too

White won't admit that most traditions predate the canon of the Bible.

elf3 · Oct 24, 2014

kepha said:

Wrong. the Apostles are God-breathed. John 20:22

Wrong and wrong. The Bible is authoritive, but without a divinely appointed interpreter you end with chaos (as in Protestantism) the Bible is the primary source for doctrine, but their is nothing in the bible that says it is the exclusive source, and nothing that says its text is the sole infallible rule of faith for the church. What White means is that HIS interpretation is infallible. "other rule of authority on the same level" is a misrepresentation.

Yea, he says that after losing so many debates on Tradition.

The Great White Lie. He fails to understand the relationship between the three, and has re-invented "authority".

A half truth. The enscripturated word had to be proven inspired by the Church. With 15 "gospels" and 30 "books of acts" floating around, there had to be an authoritive mechanism to sort out the mess. Apostolic Teaching, which contains both Tradition and the enscriptuated word, kept it in harmony. White thinks the Bible fell out of the sky.

Obvious in context? Paul had a copy of the 4 Gospels? If tradition is so inferior why does the bible always list it ahead of scripture???

That's ok. I do it too

White won't admit that most traditions predate the canon of the Bible.

Kepha I will respond to this beginning with John 20:22. I just need to figure out how too because I can't write the Greek words as I use my phone so I will probably just refer to the Strongs number. I'm just trying to write it out so it's not confusing. If I could write the Greek word this would be much easier. Grrr kinda frustrating lol

newbirth · Oct 24, 2014

kepha said:

Originally Posted by newbirth

you strip the context from here....
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For when one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not men?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]What then is Apollos? and what is Paul? Ministers through whom ye believed; and each as the Lord gave to him.

the issue was division in the church where some were claiming to be of Paul ,Apollos or Cephas...

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Wherefore let no one glory in men. For all things are yours;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
[SUP]23 [/SUP]and ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

this is a quote from 1Cor 3....are you not familiar with the scripture

Contradiction of WORDS

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