Death and Dying, part deux

[Magenta]

What I can't grasp is why God having a plan fully in place for what He knew was going to happen, means to someone that He caused the bad thing to happen...

For instance, here. You say you cannot grasp something, and when I give an answer, you say you did not say that, and that I have not addressed what you said, when my response was in direct relation to what you said, I already know YOU did not say it, I am telling you what the mindset you cannot grasp is. "Some cannot accept that God is sovereign and omnipotent unless He is controlling everything like a puppet master." The Calvinist will rail against being called puppets yet claim God is the cause for everything that happens, ergo God makes people do evil things, because He has predetermined and predestined it. That is not the same as saying He causes all things to work for the good, and it says nothing against Him knowing in advance what people will or will not do.

I also have no problem with God predestining or forespeaking what will happen. He knows the end and what everyone will do, so He IS the only one who can ever forespeak. If He didn't know what the end of everyone and everything will be before it comes to be, He could not forespeak, predestine, or prophecy. It is only because He sees all of someones moments at once that He CAN forespeak and be correct...but maybe that's dense of me...it just seems so much simpler to me than some make it to be.

Has anyone said God does not know the future? Knowing what people will do and making people do the things they do are two completely separate issues. The funny thing is that a Calvinist will say that God causes everything to happen but then scoff at the idea that God made some particular thing to happen. Odd too that in their view everything is ordained by God, yet they will complain against people pointing out the flaws in their theology... because according to their theology, God is the cause of anyone disputing their theology. It is inherently self-contradictory for them to complain, but I guess in their view God makes them behave in ways that actually shows the flaws in their thinking.

 

[Magenta]

Why do you do so many threads personal.

Lets talk about if God creates evil and if yes, how and what it means. Not about what who said or not.

How can we discuss anything if we do not talk about what is said? When someone asks a question or says they do not understand something, and someone answers them in an attempt to help them understand what is being said, or why it is being said, or who has said it, but that response is then portrayed as if the respondent is trying to put words in the other person's mouth, it needs to be addressed, especially if it is a misunderstanding that keeps happening. I want to understand the problem, and see if there is something I can do to alleviate it in any way. Maybe I can't.

 

[Magenta]

There are things I just don't get, too. For instance, what does it mean not to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing? I have had that explained to me in ways that I understood, but I could not now tell you what I understood, because although the answer made sense to me at the time, it did not fully satisfy. I just don't get it.

When Calvinists say God causes men to do evil things, against His express commandments for us not to do evil, there is a problem that strikes me as very easy to grasp. Maybe it is not so easy for others.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

There are things I just don't get, too. For instance, what does it mean not to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing? I have had that explained to me in ways that I understood, but I could not now tell you what I understood, because although the answer made sense to me at the time, it did not fully satisfy. I just don't get it.

i believe it is a play on words



it's meant to say no need to boast or gloat for anything you do for God

no need to even mention it or pat yourself on the back

 

[trofimus]

How can we discuss anything if we do not talk about what is said? When someone asks a question or says they do not understand something, and someone answers them in an attempt to help them understand what is being said, or why it is being said, or who has said it, but that response is then portrayed as if the respondent is trying to put words in the other person's mouth, it needs to be addressed, especially if it is a misunderstanding that keeps happening. I want to understand the problem, and see if there is something I can do to alleviate it in any way. Maybe I can't.

Sometimes its just discussion for the sake of discussion and truth about God is put aside.

 

[trofimus]

When Calvinists say God causes men to do evil thing

I very doubt calvinists say this.

But if some do, we should not take sides "calvinist, lutherans..." because we are individuals and one calvinist may say something different to what will say another one... so its endless.

 

[Magenta]

I very doubt calvinists say this.

But if some do, we should not take sides "calvinist, lutherans..." because we are individuals and one calvinist may say something different to what will say another one... so its endless.

I gave a list a while back of Calvinists saying that very thing.

The Calvinist claim is that God ordains /predetermines/predestines what man does; good or evil, makes no difference, because if it is ordained and decreed, it must come to pass. That means God will make it happen, not that God simply allows it to happen, or knows it will happen, or cause good to come of it for those who love Him. I make a distinction between the permissive will of God, and the sovereign and moral will of God, which does not in any way negate His goodness, nor His omnipotence, nor His omniscience.

Here are some Calvinist teachers writing on the subject:​

The doctrine of Calvinism necessitates that nothing happen apart from God’s will. John Calvin declares, “My doctrine is that the will of God is the first and supreme cause of all things.” John Calvin is convinced that, “Nothing happens except what is knowingly and willingly decreed by [God].” If this is true, then God must knowingly and willingly decree man’s sin. It is in this sense that, as John Calvin said, God cannot be said to merely permit sin but rather to will and to author it.
​

“God worketh all things in all men even wickedness in the wicked
for this is one branch of his own omnipotence.” Martin Luther

“It is certain then, that the existence of sin was the ordination of the
divine will … Sin could not have existence, without, or contrary to the
divine will: its being, must be the consequent of the divine purpose …
Sin is the wise and holy ordination of God.” William Tucker

“[A]s nothing exists contrary to the will of Him who says I will
do all my pleasure. It certainly was his determination to permit
it, and his will, that sin should have being." William Tucker

“When God makes angels or men sin, he does not sin himself,
because he does not break any law.” Ulricus Zuinglius

“God is the author of that action, which is sinful,
by his irresistible will.” William Twisse

“God necessitates man unto sin …” John Piscator

“God does holily drive and thrust men on unto wickedness.” John Piscator

“God justly wills that sins be committed by us, and indeed
absolutely wills that they be committed; nay, procures in
time these sins themselves.” John Piscator

“God procures adultery, cursing, lyings.” John Piscator

“God … is the cause of those actions which are sins …” Peter Martyr

“The basic principle of Calvinism is the soveriegnty of God.[He] creates
the very thoughts and intents of the soul.” Loraine Boettner

“God controls everything that exists and everything that happens. There is not one thing that exists or that happens that he has not decreed and caused—not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed and caused the existence of evil. He has not merely permitted it, because nothing can originate or happen apart from his will and power. Since no creature can make free or independent decisions, evil could never have started unless God decreed and caused it, and it cannot continue for one moment longer without God’s will for it to continue or without God’s power actively causing it to continue.” Vincent Cheung

“Sin is one of the ‘whatsoevers’ that have ‘come to pass,’
all of which are ‘ordained.’” William Shedd

“It is even Biblical to say that God has foreordained sin. If sin
was outside the plan of God, then not a single important
affair of life would be ruled by God.” Edwin Palmer

“If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is
being controlled or governed by God? … Can this mean anything
less than, that no matter what man may desire and plan, it is the
will of his Maker which is executed?” Arthur W. Pink

“We also note that we should consider the creation of the world
so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled
by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing
happens other than what God decrees.” John Calvin

“When [Augustine] uses the term permission, the meaning which he attaches to it will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission.” John Calvin

“But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as [God] permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,—when the godly think of all these things they have ample sources of consolation.” John Calvin

“God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning;
I am suggesting that God created sin.” Robert C. Sproul Jr.

“God wills all things that come to pass.” Robert C. Sproul Jr.

“Since, therefore, God moves and does all in all, He necessarily moves
and does all in Satan and the wicked man.” Martin Luther

“All things including even the wicked actions of wicked
men and devils—are brought to pass in accordance with
God’s eternal purpose.” John Machen

“Both the elect and the reprobates were foreordained to sin, as sin,
that the glory of God might be declared thereby.” Jerome Zanchius

“t was God’s will that sin should come into the world.
He wished to enhance his glory by means of its
punishment and removal.” Cornelius Van Til

“Sin, or moral evil, is no accidental thing, but a wise and
holy ordination of God for the manifestation of his own
glory, in the person of his dear Son, the adorable
Redeemer from it.” William Tucker

“Not an impure thought, word, or act, more or less, can arise among the creatures, than God has actually determined the being and permission of. Omnipotence cannot pervade, or absolute wisdom guide his arm; if any thing comes to pass and he commands it not.” William Tucker

“Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin.” Edwin Palmer

Having looked at these many quotations, is it really necessary to continue to question whether Calvinism necessitates that God is the author of sin? Nothing could be clearer. ​

https://authorofsin.pressbooks.com/chapter/does-god-ordain-sin/​

 

[Magenta]

i believe it is a play on words



it's meant to say no need to boast or gloat for anything you do for God

no need to even mention it or pat yourself on the back

That just doesn't make sense to me! Like, how can your hands know anything anyways? LOL. They do what your will wills them to do. Haha. See? I just don't get it. I think I have heard that explanation before, too

 

[NoNameMcgee]

That just doesn't make sense to me! Like, how can your hands know anything anyways? LOL. They do what your will wills them to do. Haha. See? I just don't get it. I think I have heard that explanation before, too

hahaha

well.... uhhhhhhh

hmmmm

perhaps its a defense tactic to combat psychic enemies to those who have robot hands connected to their brain with different hard drives


(._.')

like

maybe if you put them both on auto pilot

and make sure not to let them know what the other one does

the enemy will have no idea how to combat your left or right hand because his psychic powers are being stifled




#context

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Why do you do so many threads personal.

Lets talk about if God creates evil and if yes, how and what it means. Not about what who said or not.

Well,if someone says or feels that I am maligning them and says or feels that I have made false accusations against them, I care enough to try to clear it up

 

[trofimus]

I gave a list a while back of Calvinists saying that very thing.

The Calvinist claim is that God ordains /predetermines/predestines what man does; good or evil, makes no difference, because if it is ordained and decreed, it must come to pass. That means God will make it happen, not that God simply allows it to happen, or knows it will happen, or cause good to come of it for those who love Him. I make a distinction between the permissive will of God, and the sovereign and moral will of God, which does not in any way negate His goodness, nor His omnipotence, nor His omniscience.

Here are some Calvinist teachers writing on the subject:​

The doctrine of Calvinism necessitates that nothing happen apart from God’s will. John Calvin declares, “My doctrine is that the will of God is the first and supreme cause of all things.” John Calvin is convinced that, “Nothing happens except what is knowingly and willingly decreed by [God].” If this is true, then God must knowingly and willingly decree man’s sin. It is in this sense that, as John Calvin said, God cannot be said to merely permit sin but rather to will and to author it.
​

“God worketh all things in all men even wickedness in the wicked
for this is one branch of his own omnipotence.” Martin Luther

“It is certain then, that the existence of sin was the ordination of the
divine will … Sin could not have existence, without, or contrary to the
divine will: its being, must be the consequent of the divine purpose …
Sin is the wise and holy ordination of God.” William Tucker

“[A]s nothing exists contrary to the will of Him who says I will
do all my pleasure. It certainly was his determination to permit
it, and his will, that sin should have being." William Tucker

“When God makes angels or men sin, he does not sin himself,
because he does not break any law.” Ulricus Zuinglius

“God is the author of that action, which is sinful,
by his irresistible will.” William Twisse

“God necessitates man unto sin …” John Piscator

“God does holily drive and thrust men on unto wickedness.” John Piscator

“God justly wills that sins be committed by us, and indeed
absolutely wills that they be committed; nay, procures in
time these sins themselves.” John Piscator

“God procures adultery, cursing, lyings.” John Piscator

“God … is the cause of those actions which are sins …” Peter Martyr

“The basic principle of Calvinism is the soveriegnty of God.[He] creates
the very thoughts and intents of the soul.” Loraine Boettner

“God controls everything that exists and everything that happens. There is not one thing that exists or that happens that he has not decreed and caused—not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed and caused the existence of evil. He has not merely permitted it, because nothing can originate or happen apart from his will and power. Since no creature can make free or independent decisions, evil could never have started unless God decreed and caused it, and it cannot continue for one moment longer without God’s will for it to continue or without God’s power actively causing it to continue.” Vincent Cheung

“Sin is one of the ‘whatsoevers’ that have ‘come to pass,’
all of which are ‘ordained.’” William Shedd

“It is even Biblical to say that God has foreordained sin. If sin
was outside the plan of God, then not a single important
affair of life would be ruled by God.” Edwin Palmer

“If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is
being controlled or governed by God? … Can this mean anything
less than, that no matter what man may desire and plan, it is the
will of his Maker which is executed?” Arthur W. Pink

“We also note that we should consider the creation of the world
so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled
by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing
happens other than what God decrees.” John Calvin

“When [Augustine] uses the term permission, the meaning which he attaches to it will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission.” John Calvin

“But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as [God] permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,—when the godly think of all these things they have ample sources of consolation.” John Calvin

“God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning;
I am suggesting that God created sin.” Robert C. Sproul Jr.

“God wills all things that come to pass.” Robert C. Sproul Jr.

“Since, therefore, God moves and does all in all, He necessarily moves
and does all in Satan and the wicked man.” Martin Luther

“All things including even the wicked actions of wicked
men and devils—are brought to pass in accordance with
God’s eternal purpose.” John Machen

“Both the elect and the reprobates were foreordained to sin, as sin,
that the glory of God might be declared thereby.” Jerome Zanchius

“t was God’s will that sin should come into the world.
He wished to enhance his glory by means of its
punishment and removal.” Cornelius Van Til

“Sin, or moral evil, is no accidental thing, but a wise and
holy ordination of God for the manifestation of his own
glory, in the person of his dear Son, the adorable
Redeemer from it.” William Tucker

“Not an impure thought, word, or act, more or less, can arise among the creatures, than God has actually determined the being and permission of. Omnipotence cannot pervade, or absolute wisdom guide his arm; if any thing comes to pass and he commands it not.” William Tucker

“Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin.” Edwin Palmer

Having looked at these many quotations, is it really necessary to continue to question whether Calvinism necessitates that God is the author of sin? Nothing could be clearer. ​

https://authorofsin.pressbooks.com/chapter/does-god-ordain-sin/​

I know only Luther and Calvin, the rest is insignificant to me.

What Calvin said is biblical and he did not say that God causes anybody to sin actively.

I was unable to find that quotation of Luther, that page has only secondary source which is a printed book of somebody else.

----

1. But if you want to prove what calvinism say, you should use calvinistic creeds and catechisms. Not individuals.
Individuals are not calvinism and can say many things wrongly in some letters or discussions which they will not put to official documents.
BTW, Luther is not a calvinist.

2. Does it really matter so much? Lets talk about God, not about what some camp says or does not say.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

For instance, here. You say you cannot grasp something, and when I give an answer, you say you did not say that, and that I have not addressed what you said, when my response was in direct relation to what you said, I already know YOU did not say it, I am telling you what the mindset you cannot grasp is. "Some cannot accept that God is sovereign and omnipotent unless He is controlling everything like a puppet master." The Calvinist will rail against being called puppets yet claim God is the cause for everything that happens, ergo God makes people do evil things, because He has predetermined and predestined it. That is not the same as saying He causes all things to work for the good, and it says nothing against Him knowing in advance what people will or will not do.

Has anyone said God does not know the future? Knowing what people will do and making people do the things they do are two completely separate issues. The funny thing is that a Calvinist will say that God causes everything to happen but then scoff at the idea that God made some particular thing to happen. Odd too that in their view everything is ordained by God, yet they will complain against people pointing out the flaws in their theology... because according to their theology, God is the cause of anyone disputing their theology. It is inherently self-contradictory for them to complain, but I guess in their view God makes them behave in ways that actually shows the flaws in their thinking.

Except that what I didn't understand was not answered by your response. I'm done. Go aheAd and have whatever last word you want to sister. I'm done with this.

 

[Magenta]

I know only Luther and Calvin, the rest is insignificant to me.

What Calvin said is biblical and he did not say that God causes anybody to sin actively.

I was unable to find that quotation of Luther, that page has only secondary source which is a printed book of somebody else.

----

1. But if you want to prove what calvinism say, you should use calvinistic creeds and catechisms. Not individuals.
Individuals are not calvinism and can say many things wrongly in some letters or discussions which they will not put to official documents.
BTW, Luther is not a calvinist.

2. Does it really matter so much? Lets talk about God, not about what some camp says or does not say.

I do talk about God, and so do Calvinists, who say such things as, they would not worship a weak God Who will not or cannot bring to pass that which He desires. Yes, people on this very thread have said such things. They call God weak. On this thread? Maybe not, but elsewhere, certainly. Does God desire everyone to be saved? The Calvinist says no, that He only desires those to be saved Whom He has elected for salvation, that all does not mean all. Where Scripture says Jesus died not just for believers, but for the sins of the whole world, they have said the whole world does not mean the whole world, because if it did, then everyone's sins would be forgiven... as IF repentance were not a requirement for salvation. They have said it enough times and had their omission pointed out to them numerous times, too, but they just get angry when it is pointed out to them, and accuse the other of lying, though at the same time they will agree when pressed that repentance is required of man, BUT they will turn around and say man plays no role in his salvation, again negating the need for repentance.

This dovetails into their "man has no choice" doctrine, coming full circle to God pulling the strings, because in their view, a God Who is in control must be micromanaging or He is not omnipotent or sovereign, and they will not acknowledge such a God as One Who gives man a choice. They say there is no such thing as free will. Is the will free? Of course not. It is tied to physical and spiritual imperatives. Is there such a thing as self will that opposes the will of God? Of course there is. The Bible is all about that, and our need for a Savior, that we may escape the bonds of sinful flesh, being born again of the Holy Spirit of God. However, they will say man has no ability to choose God unless God draws them.

Do they overlook the fact that Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself? It seems they do. Their theology promotes a God Who does not give some men a choice, but will nevertheless eternally punish them for failing to choose Him. Their theology also promotes a God Who will reward them for something they claim they played no role in. To me it is all about the character of God. Is it loving, merciful, and just to punish forever after anyone for something about which they were given no choice?

“The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should.” ~John Calvin

“I freely acknowledge my doctrine to be this: that Adam fell, not only by the permission of God, but by His very secret, the counsil and decree …” ~John Calvin

“God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it.” ~John Calvin

“I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God? Here the most loquacious tongues must be dumb. The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree.” ~John Calvin

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It's not that simple - God IS light . . . there's no turning that light out and there is no letting darkness in.

Have you come to torture us before the appointed time? To send them into the lake of sulfur with their "master" - so instead of being sent into the lake of sulfur since this wasn't the appointed time they asked to be sent into the herd of pigs

I, myself, have not mentioned Calvin . . .

This statement: "It is God who controls and sends suffering" (either by causing it or allowing it) Though Satan is regarded as having power to make men suffer, some attribute suffering to God, saying it is God who controls and sends suffering, pain. Then what is the Devil doing? Waiting around to get permission? If God could have stopped tragedy from happening but instead allowed it - doesn't he necessarily share the responsibility for the tragedy?

Haven't you noticed the stark contrasts in the Bible - light versus darkness; life versus death, good versus evil, God versus the Devil? How then can God and Satan work in coordination with one another?

An analogy: Let's say two chess players sit to play chess - one is a master chess player, the other in the chess club at college. Although the chess club member may capture a few of his opponent's pieces, even appear to gain the upper hand - the outcome is never in doubt. The master chess player always has a superior strategy that will result in ultimate victory . . . In the same manner God does not need to stoop to manipulating his opponent in order to achieve his goals.
That in a nutshell is Gen. 3 - I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel. . . . that "striking at the heel of Jesus", i.e. his body, his church continues until the last enemy is destroyed.

Again, another quote with no idea who has said it. " it is God who sends and controls suffering. "

Next you say if God could have stopped tragedy from happening and didn't stop it from happening, He shares the responsibility for what happened. But He knew from the beginning that the tragedy in the garden would happen, leading to the tragedy of millennia of tragedy upon tragedy. And He knew it was going to happen or else He could not state that the lamb was slaughtered from the foundation of the world. But He didn't stop it from happening. So your thought is He bears responsibility even though He said what would happen if they ate the fruit? He could have stopped the tragedy But instead let tragedy happen. I think your thought requires more thought because you think I am saying God is the author of sin but yet you are the one who has said this by saying if He could have stopped the tragedy in the garden but didnt, then He hears the responsibility of that tragedy and bears some culpability for their sin...

 

[JGIG]

There is a difference between what God knows, what He allows, what He controls and what He causes.



That He has all these within His ability is what makes Him sovereign, not that He controls every minutia of our lives



Sovereignty also means that there is no other being above Him, that is the historical meaning of the word, to be sovereign has not meant to be in total control, a King was sovereign because he was the highest authority in the land.

I honestly do not relate to this need for God to be in complete control to trust, I know He knows and he will be there when bad things happen and that is enough for me.

I did not trust my parents because they had complete control over life's circumstances but because I was persuaded that they loved me and would help me through life's trials.

Well stated, thank you!

(You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to UnderGrace again.)

-JGIG

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And then, of course, He knew from the beginning what satan would do but He created satan anyway. You have worked yourself into a corner where although you say God is not the author/responsible or culpable for sin, you also say He is.

Do you follow my thought? Do you see the corner? It needs more work. I find myself in that corner sometimes too, by the way.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well stated, thank you!

(You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to UnderGrace again.)

-JGIG

Well I will rep her for you because I am very appreciative of the conversation and time she has been willing to spend on me. ☺

 

[Magenta]

And then, of course, He knew from the beginning what satan would do but He created satan anyway. You have worked yourself into a corner where although you say God is not the author/responsible or culpable for sin, you also say He is.

Do you follow my thought? Do you see the corner? It needs more work. I find myself in that corner sometimes too, by the way.

What corner, Stunned? I have already quite plainly stated that creating creatures with the potential for evil is not the same as creating evil itself, or MAKING people do evil. Did God make Satan do the evil Satan has done? Did God create Satan to perpetrate evil upon us? Is that what you are trying to say? Or has Satan acted of his own self driven will, as man chose to do, walking according to his own counsel, and eschewing the will of God? I would also say God has taken responsibility for sin by sending His only begotten Son to die for the remission of our sins, that we may be reconciled to Him and attain to life ever after. That is the gospel message after all

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

What corner, Stunned? I have already quite plainly stated that creating creatures with the potential for evil is not the same as creating evil itself, or MAKING people do evil. Did God make Satan do the evil Satan has done? Did God create Satan to perpetrate evil upon us? Is that what you are trying to say? Or has Satan acted of his own self driven will, as man chose to do, walking according to his own counsel, and eschewing the will of God? I would also say God has taken responsibility for sin by sending His only begotten Son to die for the remission of our sins, that we may be reconciled to Him and attain to life ever after. That is the gospel message after all

You would have to have followed the conversation I'm having with PB to understand what I am saying. Or...knowing you and i, you might not understand me even if you DID follow our conversation!

 

[Magenta]

You would have to have followed the conversation I'm having with PB to understand what I am saying. Or...knowing you and i, you might not understand me even if you DID follow our conversation!

Oh, I see. You did not quote PB, though. Were you really addressing something she said? Why didn't you quote her? I am sorry I could not get to all your requests in a timely manner before you wrote me off. I am at work, and was actually late for work due to responding to this thread.