Did God die on the cross.

[suaso]

Yes, I read the whole bit which is why I posted all of it. I don't post things I haven't read. Admittingly, I could have written this differently to get across what I meant:

If we say that only Christ's body/human nature died on the cross...well..hello gnosticism

The gnostics believed that what was seen at the crucifixion was the appearence of Jesus suffering and the appearence of Jesus dying. The didn't believe that Jesus actually died. They believed that his body died, but that he did not. Christians hold the idea that the soul and body are one, that a person is one soul/spirit in and united to one body. The gnostics did not see Jesus as a divine soul in and united to a human body. They see Jesus as a divine hand in a human puppet. Because of this, for them, their is no human nature at all to Jesus. So, when the Body of Jesus died, it was not Jesus who died, but only a flesh coat that was not significant to Jesus at all. Thus, the death of Jesus is essentially denied from the Christian viewpoint and it isn't really a salvific event at all. That is why for them, "salvation" comes not from the crucifixion, but from secret knowledge of who Jesus "really was."

The way this thread was being reasoned out was leading in a gnostic direction, or at least so I thought. As I said, I could have worded my original statement better, and in retrospect, should have kept it along the lines of "why do we say only his human nature died..blah blah" but I didn't. That's my fault. Of course GOD can not die. But Christ died. Christ is God. So we have to work that out in more ways that "yes/no/confused" can allow. So yes, God died, but what does that mean? This:

Thus it was God the Son who died—not, of course, in his divine nature, which cannot know death and which holds the universe in existence, but in the human nature which was so utterly his. Death, remember, does not for any one of us mean annihilation. It means the separation of soul and body, a separation that at the last judgment will be ended. Upon Calvary, the body that was God the Son’s was separated from the soul that was likewise his. And on the third day they were united again. In his human nature God the Son rose from the death that in his human nature had been his.

I'll try to be more mindful of the way I state things next time. Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Yeah.. I think we are all saying the same thing here just different words, I hope at least. I mean what you are saying does make sense and I think we both agree God cannot die.

Of course GOD can not die.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Oneness theology will differentiate at all times between the two natures of Christ. So it is said in the life of Christ that God does not pray to God but a man prays to God and here on the cross then to stay consistent they proclaim that here acts a man and here a man redeems creation and not God. Here dies only a man.

That's what I disagree about with Oneness theology too. Jesus was a God-man in the sense of a complete wholly Divine/human person rather than being a split or multiple personality - Divine one moment and human the next. Jesus was not divinity in a human shell, he was birthed of the Spirit and Mary and that includes his flesh so he cant' be separated into human and divine parts like that.

 

[pickles]

The physical body died for our sins and overcame death through resurerection. but God did not die as our Lord God is much more than the physical body. Our Lord became body so he could die for us. A no brainer in faith dont you think? God bless, pickles

 

[pickles]

A simple thought. Even we do not truelly die, only the body. But in faith and by the sacrifice of Jesus that we have hope in eternal life with Our Lord God. The other option is not what we want. God bless, pickles

 

[watchmen]

That's what I disagree about with Oneness theology too. Jesus was a God-man in the sense of a complete wholly Divine/human person rather than being a split or multiple personality - Divine one moment and human the next. Jesus was not divinity in a human shell, he was birthed of the Spirit and Mary and that includes his flesh so he cant' be separated into human and divine parts like that.

This is really not a Oneness vs Trinity debate, however Oneness do not think Jesus was divinity in a human shell, we believe he was fully God and fully man. The duality of Christ and Christology, just as scripture teaches. However back to this discussion God cannot and did not die, ever.

 

[watchmen]

The physical body died for our sins and overcame death through resurerection. but God did not die as our Lord God is much more than the physical body. Our Lord became body so he could die for us. A no brainer in faith dont you think? God bless, pickles

Amen pickles it really is a no brainer God cannot die.

 

[watchmen]

hus it was God the Son who died—not, of course, in his divine nature, which cannot know death and which holds the universe in existence, but in the human nature which was so utterly his.

Here, he espoused the view that the human nature died and the eternal divine nature did not. He does not mean it as the gnostics did, that the human nature suffered but the divine did not. The gnostics saw Jesus as a divine entity parading as a human, whereas Christian orthodoxy sees Jesus as fully human and divine. That is why I said we have to be careful, and that the 3 choices given weren't as adequate as I was comfortable with.

I agree with Sheed Jeus' human nature died, His divine nature did not, I also agree with you and Sheed that Jesus was not God parading around in a man suit, but fully God and fully man. The 3 choices were adequate to what I wanted to know'' did God die?'', the answer is no, in scripture and in Sheed's writing.

 

[Slepsog4]

Acts 20:28 "the church of God which he purchased with his blood" = God (the Son) died on the cross

The body without the spirit is dead (James).

Jesus (God in the Flesh) died when his divine spirit left his human body on the cross.

 

[watchmen]

Acts 20:28 "the church of God which he purchased with his blood" = God (the Son) died on the cross

The body without the spirit is dead (James).

Jesus (God in the Flesh) died when his divine spirit left his human body on the cross.

This is a false interprertation of this scripture God is always meant as God the Father when it is used independently of any other reference. The God in this verse is referring to the only true Good (as Jesus states in John 17:3) The Father. Anyone should realize that. However I am surprised on how much people do not realize or slant toward there preconceived ideas (although I shouldn't be).

 

[watchmen]

Acts 20:28 "the church of God which he purchased with his blood" = God (the Son) died on the cross

The body without the spirit is dead (James).

Jesus (God in the Flesh) died when his divine spirit left his human body on the cross.

This is a false interprertation of this scripture God is always meant as God the Father when it is used independently of any other reference. The God in this verse is referring to the only true Good (as Jesus states in John 17:3) The Father. Anyone should realize that. However I am surprised on how much people do not realize or slant toward there preconceived ideas (although I shouldn't be).

Further more the bible never once uses the phrase ''God the Son'' or God the Holy Spirit'' they are man made terms to try and explain and infinite God. The only biblical tern for God is the Father.

The Father spilt His own blood through the Son.

2nd Corinthians 5
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Yeah Watchmen that is true but there are terms such as Son of God, and we all believe Jesus is God here so the Son is indeed God and the Holy Spirit is God.. So I don't see the issue but it's really either the Trinity or Modelsim.

 

[faffie]

what if Adam and Eve only sinned with there Body and Soul? not with there Spirit. And the Penalty that had to be paid was only with the Body and the Soul? What if Jesus did die on the cross and He did go to Hades, But because of His Spirit still being alive it gave God the legal right to raise Him from the Dead?

 

[watchmen]

Yeah Watchmen that is true but there are terms such as Son of God, and we all believe Jesus is God here so the Son is indeed God and the Holy Spirit is God.. So I don't see the issue but it's really either the Trinity or Modelsim.

I believe that Jesus is God, and the Son of God, but not ''God the Son'' I also believe the Spirit of God is God ''The Holy Spirit''.


By the way I am neither Trinitarian nor modalist.

 

[Definition_Christ]

You're not a modalist? I thought you were a Oneness pentecostal? Or had some Oneness views..Modalism teaches God in the belief in only one God, but in modes or masks like at some points He's the Father, then He's the Son.Then He's the Holy Spirit. That is exactly what the Oneness teach right?

 

[watchmen]

You're not a modalist? I thought you were a Oneness pentecostal? Or had some Oneness views..Modalism teaches God in the belief in only one God, but in modes or masks like at some points He's the Father, then He's the Son.Then He's the Holy Spirit. That is exactly what the Oneness teach right?

I am Oneness, but I am not Oneness pentecostal. Like have tried to say before I did not learn my views by man but by God and His word. I actually go to a trinitarian pentecostal church, like i said before as well, I love my trinitarian brothers and sister.


Modalist believe that God played 3 roles The Father in the O.T. The Son while Jesus walked the earth, and the Holy Spirit in the N.T. age. I do not believe that. I believe God has always been and still is we who He always was. The Father ''role'' is portrayed in His interaction with the Son who was the man He became, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit that God is nothing more nothing less. I am Oneness but not a modalist


Neither are Oneness Pentecostals Modalsit, but their view on the Godhead is more in line with my views. I do not attend a Oneness Pentecostal church because although I am strongly for holiness, and righteousness, and against the rebellion of Christians, I believe that the The UPC is too legalistic in their views about women, and the interaction between boys and girls.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Oh okay, I've gotta do some research on Modalism and Oneness views lol sorry about that. But that is good you are trying to stay fully Bible based. Well it's always great having Bible chats with you, God bless!!

 

[papak]

when JESUS died on the cross he looked up to the heavens and spoke to GOD....It is finished!!! I don't think he would be talking to himself he was talking to His father saying....THE MISSION OF LOVE WAS OVER......FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD....HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON FOR OUR SINS......NOT TO CONDEMN THE WORLD BUT THROUGH JESUS THEY COULD BE SAVED....ALL BIBLICAL...

 

[1Covenant]

Let me point out what started all this. As a Trinitarian I believe that the second person of the trinity (the Divine Eternal Word) was made flesh and died on the cross. As a Trinitarian, believing in a Triune God, it is perfectly acceptable to say that God died on the cross even though we believe it to be properly the second person of the Triune God (the DIVINE Incarnate Word) which died as the other persons of the Trinity did not.

A oneness believer cannot believe that God died because it would naturally mean that for a time God was completely and entirely dead.

This is the fundamental difference between the two theologies and I believe that the Trinitarian theology upholds the perfect atonement for God's holy standard and his infinite wrath which will still be poured out for eternity on all those that are not HIS.

Man as Man cannot redeem Man from an eternity of wrath. At best a perfect MAN may save himself alone. It takes the sacrifice of the Divine second person of the Trinity to redeem man from God's own wrath.

Oneness believes that Jesus Christ, Son of God, died on the cross but as already pointed out - that does not mean that they believe God died and they can't confess that.

So I will say it again...God died for my sins on the cross.

 

[watchmen]

Oneness believes that Jesus Christ, Son of God, died on the cross but as already pointed out - that does not mean that they believe God died and they can't confess that.

So I will say it again...God died for my sins on the cross.

You are right no Oneness believer thinks God died on the cross, and no trinitarian believer should either. From this thread you can see many trinitarian believers do not believe God died on the cross nor should they, it is an absurdity to believe so.

1st Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Just like the man Jesus Christ is our mediator is was the man Jesus Christ that died for our sins.

Paul understood the difference between the divinity of Christ and His humanity. This is something you seem not to be able to distinguish