Did Jesus consider himself God?

[bornofgod]

So Pharaoh is in heaven and all the followers of Baal?

No. The flesh perishes and is burned up at the end of this first age. Only the spirit of man is saved and since the spirit is totally invisible to the flesh, the flesh thought it was the real deal. The flesh is the proud of the Earth that perishes.

Psalm 22:
25: From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26: The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever!
27: All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28: For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
30: Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
31: and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it.

 

[Angela53510]

Well, the OP sure sucked me in with his line about "wanting to learn." It was about the time he thought Jesus was the angel in Rev 22, I began to realize he was laying little traps. Except he doesn't know the bible well enough to see how wrong his arguments were. He seemed to accept correction, but who knows what really goes on inside the mind of someone caught in a pretty weird cult!?

I'm off to my computer to pull up some Greek stuff I wrote which proves Jesus is God and not some second, polytheist god, but the one true living God!

 

[bornofgod]

Well, the OP sure sucked me in with his line about "wanting to learn." It was about the time he thought Jesus was the angel in Rev 22, I began to realize he was laying little traps. Except he doesn't know the bible well enough to see how wrong his arguments were. He seemed to accept correction, but who knows what really goes on inside the mind of someone caught in a pretty weird cult!?

I'm off to my computer to pull up some Greek stuff I wrote which proves Jesus is God and not some second, polytheist god, but the one true living God!

Why do you need to go to some Greek stuff when it's impossible for chosen non-believers to disbelieve the word of God in English? The Word of God that all God's prophets and saints testified to is invisible knowledge that has to be converted into the earthly languages that each prophet or saints spoke. Using Greek to convert English will not solve your problem with disbelief.

 

[Angela53510]

John 1:1 – Why Jesus is God, and a different person than the Father.

In English, the order of the sentence generally determines the use of the noun. The subject usually comes first. However, in Greek, the word order is flexible, and is used for emphasis rather than for strict grammatical functions. For example, if there are two nouns and one has the definite article, it is the subject.

Word order is also employed for the sake of emphasis. Generally, if a word is thrown to the front of a clause or sentence, it is done so for emphasis. When the predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virtue of word order it takes on emphasis.

A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. English versions usually say, “and the Word was God.” But in Greek, the word order is reversed.

Καί θεός ήν ό λόγος or (Kai theos en ho logos)
And God was the Word

We know that “the Word” is the subject, because it has the definite article and is in the nominative case and we translate it accordingly “and the Word was God.”

Two questions, both of theological importance, come to mind
1. Why was θεός (theos or god) thrown forward?
2. Why does it lack the article?

The emphatic position of θεός (theos) stresses its essence of quality” “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the Person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).

That means that the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has: lack of the article tells us the Jesus Christ is not the Father.

John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism

To state this another way, let’s look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:

1. καί ό λόγος ήν ό θεός
“and the Word was the God” Sabellianism*
2. καί ό λόγος ήν θεός
“and the Word was a god” Arianism+
3. καί θεός ήν ό ΄λόγος
“and the Word was God” Orthodoxy

Mounce William D., Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar

*Sabellianism, (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead.
The term Sabellianism comes from Sabellius, a theologian and priest from the 3rd century. Modalism differs from Unitarianism by accepting the Christian doctrine that Jesus is fully God.

+ Arianism is the theological teaching attributed to Arius (ca. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, concerning the relationship of God to the Son of God (Jesus of Nazareth). Arius asserted that the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father.
Arianism is defined as those teachings attributed to Arius which are in opposition to mainstream Trinitarian Christological doctrine, as determined by the first two Ecumenical Councils and currently maintained by the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, all Reformation-founded Protestant churches (Lutheran, Reformed/Presbyterian, and Anglican), and a large majority of groups founded after the Reformation and calling themselves Protestant (such as Methodist, Baptist, most Pentecostals), with the exception of such groups as Oneness Pentecostals, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Iglesia ni Cristo and Branhamism

 

[bornofgod]

John 1:1 – Why Jesus is God, and a different person than the Father.

In English, the order of the sentence generally determines the use of the noun. The subject usually comes first. However, in Greek, the word order is flexible, and is used for emphasis rather than for strict grammatical functions. For example, if there are two nouns and one has the definite article, it is the subject.

Word order is also employed for the sake of emphasis. Generally, if a word is thrown to the front of a clause or sentence, it is done so for emphasis. When the predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virtue of word order it takes on emphasis.

A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. English versions usually say, “and the Word was God.” But in Greek, the word order is reversed.

Καί θεός ήν ό λόγος or (Kai theos en ho logos)
And God was the Word

We know that “the Word” is the subject, because it has the definite article and is in the nominative case and we translate it accordingly “and the Word was God.”

Two questions, both of theological importance, come to mind
1. Why was θεός (theos or god) thrown forward?
2. Why does it lack the article?

The emphatic position of θεός (theos) stresses its essence of quality” “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the Person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).

That means that the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has: lack of the article tells us the Jesus Christ is not the Father.

John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism

To state this another way, let’s look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:

1. καί ό λόγος ήν ό θεός
“and the Word was the God” Sabellianism*
2. καί ό λόγος ήν θεός
“and the Word was a god” Arianism+
3. καί θεός ήν ό ΄λόγος
“and the Word was God” Orthodoxy

Mounce William D., Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar

*Sabellianism, (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead.
The term Sabellianism comes from Sabellius, a theologian and priest from the 3rd century. Modalism differs from Unitarianism by accepting the Christian doctrine that Jesus is fully God.

+ Arianism is the theological teaching attributed to Arius (ca. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, concerning the relationship of God to the Son of God (Jesus of Nazareth). Arius asserted that the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father.
Arianism is defined as those teachings attributed to Arius which are in opposition to mainstream Trinitarian Christological doctrine, as determined by the first two Ecumenical Councils and currently maintained by the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, all Reformation-founded Protestant churches (Lutheran, Reformed/Presbyterian, and Anglican), and a large majority of groups founded after the Reformation and calling themselves Protestant (such as Methodist, Baptist, most Pentecostals), with the exception of such groups as Oneness Pentecostals, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Iglesia ni Cristo and Branhamism

It's necessary for unbelievers to try prove to God's chosen believers that they are wrong. There were plenty of Greek speaking unbelievers during the time of the first witness of God's saints who stole the writings of God's saints and used them for their own selfish purpose to enslave the believers who were listening to the true gospel. Once these unbelievers killed off all the saints and any believer who resisted their false gospels. they could easily deceive the rest of their followers with their New Testament.

 

[garee]

If that was true, then I and the rest of the believers who have gotten to know God without using a Bible wouldn't know Him. I have met thousands of believers who have never opened up a Bible.

Whose law were they following after as what you call new prophecy or new revelations? The oral traditions of men?

The Bible is the perfect law of God as that which does quicken a persons soul giving us simply one His understanding.

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, "converting the soul": the testimony of the LORD is sure, "making wise the simple".

The word law is in reference to the Bible alone, the law book of God. .We do not know God after the private interpretations as revelations of men. The elect will not be deceived into believing the idea that God is still bringing new prophecy. The warning is not to add or subtract from the whole or in part before it was completed..

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law (written) shall also perish without law (written): and as many as have sinned in the law(written)shall be judged by the law(written);

The standard (law) is to seek the approval of God not of the witness of a thousand men.

 

[bornofgod]

Whose law were they following after as what you call new prophecy or new revelations? The oral traditions of men?

The Bible is the perfect law of God as that which does quicken a persons soul giving us simply one His understanding.

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, "converting the soul": the testimony of the LORD is sure, "making wise the simple".

The word law is in reference to the Bible alone, the law book of God. .We do not know God after the private interpretations as revelations of men. The elect will not be deceived into believing the idea that God is still bringing new prophecy. The warning is not to add or subtract from the whole or in part before it was completed..

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law (written) shall also perish without law (written): and as many as have sinned in the law(written)shall be judged by the law(written);

The standard (law) is to seek the approval of God not of the witness of a thousand men.

Those who worship the Bible as if it were the living God have been totally deceived of the true voice of God that all God's prophets and us saints have to obey.

 

[Angela53510]

Another way John in his gospel refutes these early heretics, is the 7 “I am” statements!

“I am the bread of life” John 6:35
“I am the light of the world.” John 8:12
“I am the door” John 10:9
“I am the Good Shepherd” John 10:11
“I am the resurrection and the life.” John 11:25
“I am the way, the truth and the life” John 14:6
“I am the true vine, my Father is the vinedresser” John 15:1

Now, while these are all expressive and interesting word pictures, but how do they prove the deity of Christ?

Unfortunately, the Greek wording does not come out in any English translation that I am aware of. But the Greek is very important. The way to say, “I am” in Greek is εἰμί or eimi. Indeed, in each of the 7 “I am” verses I listed just a minute ago, the word “I” or ἐγώ” or ego is also included. Thus, in all 7 of these “I am” statements, John actually says, “ἐγώ ἐιμί” οr “I, I am.” So again, that is “ἐγώ ἐιμί.” Or just think “I, I am!” But even that is not enough to explain why these statements, among others, made the Pharisees and the scribes so angry, that they tried to stone Jesus for making himself equal with God.

We have to look back to the Old Testament to find the full reason. In Exodus 3:14 Moses asks God whom he is to say sent him to Pharaoh. YHWH gives his sacred name.

“God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’” Ex. 3:14.

In Hebrew, “I am who I am” is the tetrgram YHWH, or as some transliterate into English, Yahweh. A few hundred years before the time of Christ, Alexander the Great, when he ruled the known world, started a rigorous program of Hellenization (or making everyone into Hellenes or Greeks,) The Jews started were losing their Hebrew. So in Egypt, an ambitious project to translate the OT into Greek was started, for the Hellenized Jews, and completed around 300 years before the time of Christ.

So how do you think this Old Testament, which was called the Septuagint or LXX (After the 70 or 72 translators who translated the Hebrew into Greek), which Jesus and the disciples also used, translated “YHWH or Another way John in his gospel refutes these early heretics, is the 7 “I am” statements!

“I am the bread of life” John 6:35
“I am the light of the world.” John 8:12
“I am the door” John 10:9
“I am the Good Shepherd” John 10:11
“I am the resurrection and the life.” John 11:25
“I am the way, the truth and the life” John 14:6
“I am the true vine, my Father is the vinedresser” John 15:1

Now, while these are all expressive and interesting word pictures, but how do they prove the deity of Christ?

Unfortunately, the Greek wording does not come out in any English translation that I am aware of. But the Greek is very important. The way to say, “I am” in Greek is εἰμί or eimi. Indeed, in each of the 7 “I am” verses I listed just a minute ago, the word “I” or ἐγώ” or ego is also included. Thus, in all 7 of these “I am” statements, John actually says, “ἐγώ ἐιμί” οr “I, I am.” So again, that is “ἐγώ ἐιμί.” Or just think “I, I am!” But even that is not enough to explain why these statements, among others, made the Pharisees and the scribes so angry, that they tried to stone Jesus for making himself equal with God.

We have to look back to the Old Testament to find the full reason. In Exodus 3:14 Moses asks God whom he is to say sent him to Pharaoh. YHWH gives his sacred name.

“God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’” Ex. 3:14.

In Hebrew, “I am who I am” is the tetrgram YHWH, or as some transliterate into English, Yahweh. A few hundred years before the time of Christ, Alexander the Great, when he ruled the known world, started a rigorous program of Hellenization (or making everyone into Hellenes or Greeks,) The Jews started were losing their Hebrew. So in Egypt, an ambitious project to translate the OT into Greek was started, for the Hellenized Jews, and completed around 300 years before the time of Christ.

So how do you think this Old Testament, which was called the Septuagint or LXX (After the 70 or 72 translators who translated the Hebrew into Greek), which Jesus and the disciples also used, translated “YHWH?” Another way John in his gospel refutes these early heretics, is the 7 “I am” statements!

“I am the bread of life” John 6:35
“I am the light of the world.” John 8:12
“I am the door” John 10:9
“I am the Good Shepherd” John 10:11
“I am the resurrection and the life.” John 11:25
“I am the way, the truth and the life” John 14:6
“I am the true vine, my Father is the vinedresser” John 15:1

Now, while these are all expressive and interesting word pictures, but how do they prove the deity of Christ?

Unfortunately, the Greek wording does not come out in any English translation that I am aware of. But the Greek is very important. The way to say, “I am” in Greek is εἰμί or eimi. Indeed, in each of the 7 “I am” verses I listed just a minute ago, the word “I” or ἐγώ” or ego is also included. Thus, in all 7 of these “I am” statements, John actually says, “ἐγώ ἐιμί” οr “I, I am.” So again, that is “ἐγώ ἐιμί.” Or just think “I, I am!” But even that is not enough to explain why these statements, among others, made the Pharisees and the scribes so angry, that they tried to stone Jesus for making himself equal with God.

We have to look back to the Old Testament to find the full reason. In Exodus 3:14 Moses asks God whom he is to say sent him to Pharaoh. YHWH gives his sacred name.

“God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’” Ex. 3:14.

In Hebrew, “I am who I am” is the tetrgram YHWH, or as some transliterate into English, Yahweh. A few hundred years before the time of Christ, Alexander the Great, when he ruled the known world, started a rigorous program of Hellenization (or making everyone into Hellenes or Greeks,) The Jews started were losing their Hebrew. So in Egypt, an ambitious project to translate the OT into Greek was started, for the Hellenized Jews, and completed around 300 years before the time of Christ.

So how do you think this Old Testament, which was called the Septuagint or LXX (After the 70 or 72 translators who translated the Hebrew into Greek), which Jesus and the disciples also used, translated “YHWH or יְהֹוָה ? In Greek, Exodus 3:14 was ἐγω ἐιμί. Repeat that ἐγω ἐιμί- The sacred name of God was translated as “I am” in exactly the same way John wrote that Jesus called himself at least 7 times, in the above statements. The Jehovah's witnesses translate "ego eimi," into the word Jehovah! But the Jews, before Christ, they translated YHWH into Greek using the words ἐγώ ἐιμί in Exodus 3:14. I think they knew what they were talking about, and certainly Jesus knew what he was talking about, when he called himself the same name as Jesus! And that is why the Jews were so angry with him they tried to stone him. He was calling himself God. He said before Abraham was ἐγώ ἐιμί or "I, I am." And then in his teaching he repeated the fact in his parables and metaphors that he was God. Because he said "ἐγώ ἐιμί" or "I, I am" or YHWH!"

It doesn't get any clearer than that!

 

[TMS]

For salvation to work Jesus had to be God.

While on Earth Jesus became a man (didn't stop being God). He clothed His divinity in humanity and the gap between God and man was filled. 100% man and 100% God.

 

[bornofgod]

For salvation to work Jesus had to be God.

While on Earth Jesus became a man (didn't stop being God). He clothed His divinity in humanity and the gap between God and man was filled. 100% man and 100% God.

Then how do you explain this prophecy;

Psalm 22:
25: From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26: The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever!
27: All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28: For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
30: Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
31: and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it.


This was written long before a man named Jesus came along to preach about God's salvation plan for all His created beings.

 

[TMS]

Those who worship the Bible as if it were the living God have been totally deceived of the true voice of God that all God's prophets and us saints have to obey.

How do you know if it is the voice of God or the voice of a demon ??
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The word is the foundation for truth.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[TMS]

Then how do you explain this prophecy;

Psalm 22:
25: From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26: The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever!
27: All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28: For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
30: Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
31: and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it.


This was written long before a man named Jesus came along to preach about God's salvation plan for all His created beings.

The old testament had prophesy about both the first and second coming of Jesus some combined both.
The Jews were confused because some said the the saviour would come as the the lion of the tribe of Judah and in other places that the messiah would come as a lamb.
When and where or how these prophesies happen/ed i don't know but i do know that Jesus is the lord of lords and that He became a man.

 

[bornofgod]

How do you know if it is the voice of God or the voice of a demon ??
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The word is the foundation for truth.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The original scriptures were the writings of God's saints who had to write down every word that was formed in their mind via the word of the Lord, also known as His voice.

The Bible cannot speak or know whether or not a liar is reading it. Liars use the words in the Bible selfishly and pervert it with their own interpretations to go find followers who believe their false interpretations. The Bible can never tell those followers that they are being deceived by the liar.

I got all my knowledge from listening to the voice of God and obeying all his commandments over the past 37 years I have known the voice. The voice of God that I preach to God's chosen believers comes out in the English language that I learned from childhood. If you don't believe the written or spoken Word of God that is using the body to write or speak, then I can only hope that you will listen later on. I know for a fact you will hear his voice in Paradise when you awaken in your new bodies. One body will be a male and the other body will be a female because God created man both male and female.

Genesis 1
26: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.


Genesis 2
7: then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
8: And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
21: So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh;
22: and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.
23: Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
24: Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.
25: And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.

All the offspring of Adam ( male ) and Eve ( female ) only got ONE body to experience life with. That one body contains information of both male and female so this explains why there is homosexuality during this first age. That will be straightened out in Paradise when created man ( spirit ) wakes up in flesh ( Earth ) of a male and the flesh of a female.

 

[bornofgod]

The old testament had prophesy about both the first and second coming of Jesus some combined both.
The Jews were confused because some said the the saviour would come as the the lion of the tribe of Judah and in other places that the messiah would come as a lamb.
When and where or how these prophesies happen/ed i don't know but i do know that Jesus is the lord of lords and that He became a man.

No. There is only one flesh named Jesus who perished 2,000 years ago but the spirit ( Word of God ) that He spoke is what all the OT prophecies were about.

When the flesh of man woke up in the world for the first time, it had no idea what "spirit" meant. The spirit is the Tree of Life that cannot be observed by the flesh. This is why it took thousands of years for God to reveal to us what the spirit means. Through the testimonies of His prophets and now us saints, we are learning that the body ( flesh ) is only a formed illusion that appears in our mind. It is not our true reality. Our true reality started out as thoughts of our Creator who spoke them into existence through His Voice, also known as the word of the Lord.

John 6
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.


John 1
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: He was in the beginning with God;
3: all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
4: In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

The Word of God is the Spirit of God that gives life to characters called people and beasts.

 

[UndoubtingThomas]

Well, the OP sure sucked me in with his line about "wanting to learn." It was about the time he thought Jesus was the angel in Rev 22, I began to realize he was laying little traps. Except he doesn't know the bible well enough to see how wrong his arguments were. He seemed to accept correction, but who knows what really goes on inside the mind of someone caught in a pretty weird cult!?

I'm off to my computer to pull up some Greek stuff I wrote which proves Jesus is God and not some second, polytheist god, but the one true living God!

Hi and thank you for your insight and for basically calling me dumb lol. Super Christian of you. No worries, it's kind of been common in this forum. For the saved, confident and righteous, I guess it's ok to love thy neighbor using malice and not consider that a sin. I am also a fellow Christian. I would appreciate equal respect to be one on top of being human.

What I was trying to do was prove that what I was seeing (in this so called cult site) was actually true as a means to explain why God is letting these evil politicians and unjust laws and racial hatred and general malice of the world reign supreme. The references in my prior threads give a clear impression that Jesus is not God but rather the Son of God since the Father is God. Can't have two Gods. An example would be the following...

Eph
1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Christ the Saviour, Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [things] in Christ:

If you look at scripture, you see the text sometimes very clearly indicating two distinct Spirits this way and I am looking for evidence that can't be refuted as opinion or teaching by man. Believe they are One if you want but what would you offer as an explanation as to why you think we are not being saved from our oppressors? Do you think He wants us all to die by satan's hand?

This (so called cult site) reasons that in times where Israel needed rescuing it was because they wondered from His ways. Since HIS law is perfect, the issue is something we are not doing. I don't feel like sitting back and waiting to find out what that is.

It makes all the difference in the world to know THAT truth. Many have tried to reason as you have and rightfully so, blind faith is what Satan would want. Surprisingly, there is a lot of trust given to a man these days given the human condition right now. Most of us lock our doors at night but then leave our salvation to the whim of a stranger. If your beliefs regarding this are based on 'that is the standard understanding of the church' (who is corrupt), then don't you think it's prudent to be confident about it STUDY the writings for yourself?

I am not one to believe that God in all his wisdom is going to make it tricky to understand so when it says "God and the Father of our Lord Jesus" That's two until someone shows me a picture that God made depicting otherwise. Also no one has considered that the word LORD could be like a title similar to the word Duke etc, who really knows what a LORD God is except God. Just because Jesus is defined as the Lord God, you can not just assume it means he can change GOD's laws. It is a reasonable question to ask and something a child might one the adults in this forum but so far the only proof given to me is opinion based. In addition in the OT, God refers to himself as the 'I AM' and never says anything about His Father. When Jesus shows up and and says he's the Son of God and mentions having a Father (the I AM) and we're just supposed to assume they are One in the same?
Jesus may have said he and his Father are One in the same for our sake, but worship wise, I want be sure he wasn't just talking about him having all the power and authority of his Father not realizing people would think God and Jesus are the same God. Arrogance is our downfall. No one seems to get that.

 

[bluto]

Hi and thank you for your insight and for basically calling me dumb lol. Super Christian of you. No worries, it's kind of been common in this forum. For the saved, confident and righteous, I guess it's ok to love thy neighbor using malice and not consider that a sin. I am also a fellow Christian. I would appreciate equal respect to be one on top of being human.

What I was trying to do was prove that what I was seeing (in this so called cult site) was actually true as a means to explain why God is letting these evil politicians and unjust laws and racial hatred and general malice of the world reign supreme. The references in my prior threads give a clear impression that Jesus is not God but rather the Son of God since the Father is God. Can't have two Gods. An example would be the following...

Eph
1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Christ the Saviour, Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [things] in Christ:

If you look at scripture, you see the text sometimes very clearly indicating two distinct Spirits this way and I am looking for evidence that can't be refuted as opinion or teaching by man. Believe they are One if you want but what would you offer as an explanation as to why you think we are not being saved from our oppressors? Do you think He wants us all to die by satan's hand?

This (so called cult site) reasons that in times where Israel needed rescuing it was because they wondered from His ways. Since HIS law is perfect, the issue is something we are not doing. I don't feel like sitting back and waiting to find out what that is.

It makes all the difference in the world to know THAT truth. Many have tried to reason as you have and rightfully so, blind faith is what Satan would want. Surprisingly, there is a lot of trust given to a man these days given the human condition right now. Most of us lock our doors at night but then leave our salvation to the whim of a stranger. If your beliefs regarding this are based on 'that is the standard understanding of the church' (who is corrupt), then don't you think it's prudent to be confident about it STUDY the writings for yourself?

I am not one to believe that God in all his wisdom is going to make it tricky to understand so when it says "God and the Father of our Lord Jesus" That's two until someone shows me a picture that God made depicting otherwise. Also no one has considered that the word LORD could be like a title similar to the word Duke etc, who really knows what a LORD God is except God. Just because Jesus is defined as the Lord God, you can not just assume it means he can change GOD's laws. It is a reasonable question to ask and something a child might one the adults in this forum but so far the only proof given to me is opinion based. In addition in the OT, God refers to himself as the 'I AM' and never says anything about His Father. When Jesus shows up and and says he's the Son of God and mentions having a Father (the I AM) and we're just supposed to assume they are One in the same?
Jesus may have said he and his Father are One in the same for our sake, but worship wise, I want be sure he wasn't just talking about him having all the power and authority of his Father not realizing people would think God and Jesus are the same God. Arrogance is our downfall. No one seems to get that.

First of all thomas, angela did not call you "dumb." In fact, I have a feeling that she's the one that "feels" dumb for falling for your "little traps" that she mentioned. Secondly, what did she say that was "malicious?" Then you wrote the following:

"What I was trying to do was prove that what I was seeing (in this so called cult site) was actually true as a means to explain why God is letting these evil politicians and unjust laws and racial hatred and general malice of the world reign supreme. The references in my prior threads give a clear impression that Jesus is not God but rather the Son of God since the Father is God. Can't have two Gods. An example would be the following..."

Do you really want to know why God is letting or should I say why God "allows" bad things to happen as if it's His fault which is your implication? It's called "sin!" Remember, God gave man free will and your seeing the results of that free will when man chose to disobey God starting right from Adam and Eve. And what your forgetting, is the fact that God has done something about it by sending His one and only begotten Son (who is God Almighty in the flesh) to die for the sins of the world to reconcile us back to Him.

Then you come along and say, "The references in my prior threads give a clear impression that Jesus is not God but rather the Son of God since the Father is God. Can't have two Gods. An example would be the following..." Why are you only telling half the story? What about the references that say Jesus Christ is God? Why did you not quote them? John 20:28, 2 Peter 1:1, Romans 8:5, Titus 2:13 or how about Acts 20:28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God WHICH HE PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD."

And if you took the time to read further at Acts 20 please notice verses 29,30, "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; vs30, and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them." This means thomas that men will not only attack the chruch from without but from within as well.

The rest of your post is just a bunch of "blather" blaming God and everybody else for your own lack of understanding. When you stand before God there will be nobody there but you, and you alone. What are you going to say, "It's your fault God?" Or, I just could not understand which of you is the "I Am?" In short thomas, your the one that does not get it.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[UndoubtingThomas]

First of all thomas, angela did not call you "dumb." In fact, I have a feeling that she's the one that "feels" dumb for falling for your "little traps" that she mentioned. Secondly, what did she say that was "malicious?" Then you wrote the following:

"What I was trying to do was prove that what I was seeing (in this so called cult site) was actually true as a means to explain why God is letting these evil politicians and unjust laws and racial hatred and general malice of the world reign supreme. The references in my prior threads give a clear impression that Jesus is not God but rather the Son of God since the Father is God. Can't have two Gods. An example would be the following..."

Do you really want to know why God is letting or should I say why God "allows" bad things to happen as if it's His fault which is your implication? It's called "sin!" Remember, God gave man free will and your seeing the results of that free will when man chose to disobey God starting right from Adam and Eve. And what your forgetting, is the fact that God has done something about it by sending His one and only begotten Son (who is God Almighty in the flesh) to die for the sins of the world to reconcile us back to Him.

Then you come along and say, "The references in my prior threads give a clear impression that Jesus is not God but rather the Son of God since the Father is God. Can't have two Gods. An example would be the following..." Why are you only telling half the story? What about the references that say Jesus Christ is God? Why did you not quote them? John 20:28, 2 Peter 1:1, Romans 8:5, Titus 2:13 or how about Acts 20:28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God WHICH HE PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD."

And if you took the time to read further at Acts 20 please notice verses 29,30, "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; vs30, and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them." This means thomas that men will not only attack the chruch from without but from within as well.

The rest of your post is just a bunch of "blather" blaming God and everybody else for your own lack of understanding. When you stand before God there will be nobody there but you, and you alone. What are you going to say, "It's your fault God?" Or, I just could not understand which of you is the "I Am?" In short thomas, your the one that does not get it.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Ok. First, traps only work if there's a way to be caught so if you have nothing to be worried about why be concerned about traps? Second, perhaps there wouldn't be so much sin, if the laws of Moses were not made inactive according to what you believe. I've already stated that God's law is perfect. Remaining in ignorance after the truth has been revealed is denying God. I am not blaming God 4 abandoning us I am blaming man and his ignorance in recognizing that we are not in the favor of God it is clear in my statements that was what I said. Twisting words that are plainly stated out of righteousness in faith to make them look like something else is exactly what Satan does. The fact that Jesus said he did not come to change God's law is plain enough to me to find that whatever Jesus said or did afterward, would not have done so. Those that believe otherwise are denying God which explains the presence of satan in your heart. If that truth offends satan, so be it.

 

[garee]

Those who worship the Bible as if it were the living God have been totally deceived of the true voice of God that all God's prophets and us saints have to obey.

It alone is the voice of God. He will not share that glory with the clay the Potter is forming Christ in. He is a jealous God who owns everything.

We worship the word of God as the living authority of God. No one can separate the word of God, from God who alone moved men to record it. Written by the finger of God.

His law is perfect it performs that which is appointed to us it actively quickens our souls giving us simply ones His understanding .

It cannot return void from the purpose in which He sends it .As it we judge it in a hope of rightly dividing it. It judges us as to the intent of our hearts.

We acknowledge that it came from Him and not after the imagination of ones own heart as a personal source of faith.

That kind of faith in respect to the imaginations of one's own heart identifies a fool .No God in their heart. It's the atheist foundation as a god unto their own self. Which violate the first commandment, no gods before our living God ,Christ Jesus.

 

[bornofgod]

It alone is the voice of God. He will not share that glory with the clay the Potter is forming Christ in. He is a jealous God who owns everything.

We worship the word of God as the living authority of God. No one can separate the word of God, from God who alone moved men to record it. Written by the finger of God.

His law is perfect it performs that which is appointed to us it actively quickens our souls giving us simply ones His understanding .

It cannot return void from the purpose in which He sends it .As it we judge it in a hope of rightly dividing it. It judges us as to the intent of our hearts.

We acknowledge that it came from Him and not after the imagination of ones own heart as a personal source of faith.

That kind of faith in respect to the imaginations of one's own heart identifies a fool .No God in their heart. It's the atheist foundation as a god unto their own self. Which violate the first commandment, no gods before our living God ,Christ Jesus.

Why do you hold up a man named Jesus before the Living God, the Creator of all things? Is that not worshiping another god?

The Mormons hold up Joseph Smith as their go to guy. He is their god because they have never heard the voice of God and obeyed his commandments.

 

[valiant]

Why do you hold up a man named Jesus before the Living God, the Creator of all things? Is that not worshiping another god?

The Mormons hold up Joseph Smith as their go to guy. He is their god because they have never heard the voice of God and obeyed his commandments.

We worship the living God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit,


Jesus Himself made this clear ;

, Jesus said, 'That all may honour the Son AS they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son (as they honour the Father), does not honour the Father Who sent Him.' John 5.23

Equla honor equals equal worth.


“For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself” John 5.26

To have life in Himself proves that He has The prerogative given only to God.

Jesus answered them, “MY Father is working still and I am working.” This was why the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God John 5.17-18


“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58 The claim to be the I AM was a specific claim to be YHWH


Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father. John 14.9

To have seen Jesus was to have SEEN the Father. He therefore had ALL the attributes of the Father,


“And this is life eternal, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent – and now, Father, glorify Me with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5)


The risen Jesus said, “Baptising them in the (one) Name (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28.19

The NT writers agreed.:


John said, 'In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was face to face with God, and What God was the Word was, – and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1.1, 14).




And for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and ONE LORD through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist 1 Corinthians 8.6 (in contrast with the many gods and lords)


He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstBORN before the whole of creation Colossians 1.15


In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form Colossians 2.9


Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2.13


When the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared, – which He poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Saviour Titus 3.4, 6


In the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ – of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Peter 1.1 ,11 (exactly parallel in the Greek).


Who being the outshining of His glory and the exact representation of His substance Heb 1.3


He is the SON in contrast to all angels Heb 1.4 following.


Thomas called Him, “my LORD and my God”. John 20.28