Did Jesus die to take the punishment for everyone's sins?

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Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#41
Just so I understand you, are you saying that on that day atonement was made for every man that ever lived and will live in the future?
No. I believe that Jesus provided atonement on that day for everyone who would ever come to believe him and trust in the Atonement He secured for the forgiveness of their sins..
 

NOV25

Active member
Nov 23, 2019
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#42
No. I believe that Jesus provided atonement on that day for everyone who would ever come to believe him and trust in the Atonement He secured for the forgiveness of their sins..
“Everyone who would ever” What about those before Christ who were called up to heaven? I assume you mean to say he atoned for them as well?

So, on the cross he paid for those who were already in heaven who didn’t believe in him when they perished but everyone after that day the atonement is dependent on the persons belief?
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,863
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#43
“Everyone who would ever” What about those before Christ who were called up to heaven? I assume you mean to say he atoned for them as well?
Yes all who had faith in God.. As Abraham did and it was accounted to him for rightiousness..

(Galatians 3:6) "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

(Romans 4:3) "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

So, on the cross he paid for those who were already in heaven who didn’t believe in him when they perished but everyone after that day the atonement is dependent on the persons belief?
Those that had rejected faith in God before Jesus time where in the same boat as those who rejected the LORD after the Atonement of Jesus..
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#44
“Everyone who would ever” What about those before Christ who were called up to heaven? I assume you mean to say he atoned for them as well?

So, on the cross he paid for those who were already in heaven who didn’t believe in him when they perished but everyone after that day the atonement is dependent on the persons belief?
I'm not exactly seeing your point here. Why make it so complicated? Jesus took the wrath of God that abides over all man kinds head, so that those that believe on Him will be saved. Yet the bible does say God draws people, hardens people, has predestine, has authored all things, from the beginning He tells us the end, He knew us before we were knit together in our mothers whom, God is sovereign, and not many have a problem with saying this, but when you really sit down and think about it and all the implications that has on how we see God and how we see ourselves, as well as our brothers, sisters, and fellow human beings.

God is amazing and the biggest mystery to me personally, is how in the world God works His sovereignty with everyone's will going. (I use will without the "free" in front of it because we are told in His word that we are slave of sin, or slaves of Christ) It's just beyond me, but I believe it. I just don't understand what you're getting at here, or am just jumping into the conversation before you bring it all together to make your point. I'm only even saying this because I feel Adstar was pretty clear in what he said, and I feel he's right on the money really, but again I am maybe a bit early in the conversation for the point to have been made. Thanks and I look forward to your response, simple because I do feel there was more at the end of questions you were asking.

Also I think Rom 1:12-15 applies to those who lived before Jesus

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
 

NOV25

Active member
Nov 23, 2019
178
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43
#45
Yes all who had faith in God.. As Abraham did and it was accounted to him for rightiousness..

(Galatians 3:6) "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

(Romans 4:3) "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."



Those that had rejected faith in God before Jesus time where in the same boat as those who rejected the LORD after the Atonement of Jesus..
So the atonement in your view was applied to Abraham because he believed and if I choose to believe it can be applied to me too? But if I choose not to believe then it’s not for me?
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,863
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#46
So the atonement in your view was applied to Abraham because he believed and if I choose to believe it can be applied to me too? But if I choose not to believe then it’s not for me?
Yes to be saved one must believe God and trust Him..
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
1,253
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Oregon
#47
.
John 1:29 . .The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
"Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Note that "the sin" is singular. Now watch.

1John 2:1-3 . . He himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours
only, but also for those of the whole world.

Note that "our sins" and "those of the whole world" are plural.

I may be nit picking here but I sincerely believe that there is something very
significant about "the sin" that John the Baptist spoke of.
_
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
1,253
218
63
Oregon
#48
.
Did Jesus die to take the punishment for everyone's sins?

The punishment for everyone's sins is the reservoir of brimstone depicted at
Rev 20:11-15 where people will undergo a mode of death akin to a foundry
worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.
_
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#49
So the atonement in your view was applied to Abraham because he believed and if I choose to believe it can be applied to me too? But if I choose not to believe then it’s not for me?
No, if you don't believe then you reject what is offered, not only offered but also what we are called to.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
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#51
The cross is a completed act of redemption, it is finished, transaction complete.

If you claim Jesus died for everyone, then he has redeemed all. Everyone goes to heaven, YAY 🙌

If you claim Jesus died to pay a price for those who might believe, you say he redeemed none that day, he merely gave man the opportunity to be redeemed. Awe ☹️

Sorry folks, neither of these are true.

He died for the elect, those promised by the Father before the beginning of time. If you are a believer you are among the elect, promised out of love from the Father to the Son, molded in his image to mirror the perfection of the Son, as a form of honoring the Son. It's not about us, it's about the Father and the Son, we're merely a gift. Yes, we Christians reap the benefits but in no way is all of this centered around us. It's about the Son, our Lord Jesus. The Father picked the bride and the Son paid, it's finished...
No, the Bible doesn't teach any of this. Utterly wrong. Nor does saying He died for all mean that everyone goes to heaven. Free gift, some will accept, some won't.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
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#52
Whole world = Jews and Gentiles, not each person. Salvation was only of the Jews and Jewish converts until Christ arrived.
Sorry, are you saying God doesn't save individuals?
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
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#53
Yes, very unpleasant to be among those predestined for wrath.
So God created people for destruction? Not that people "will not" be saved but a people that "cannot" be saved? What a cruel and hateful God you serve. smh
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
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#54
Yes of course it is for everyone or at least anyone who is willing to accept him

No, He died for everyone. Whether they accept it doesn't mean He didn't die for them.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
14,412
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#55
The correct answer comes from Jesus Himself. He is willing in that yes He satisfied all that was needed to atone for every mans sin. The problem is that not every man will accept His forgiveness.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

For the cause of Christ
Roger

...even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Ye would not, not Ye could not. Subtle difference but an incredibly important one.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
10,582
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#56
If you claim Jesus died for everyone, then he has redeemed all. Everyone goes to heaven, YAY
This is the kind of ABSURD LOGIC which comes about when people believe false man-made doctrines.

Since each one who is saved must obey the Gospel, your logic utterly fails. Since God commands all men everywhere to repent, those who fail to repent cannot be redeemed.

However the Bible is crystal clear that Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Even John Calvin in his commentary on John 1:29 could not avoid this fundamental Gospel truth. So why don't you study that (on Bible Hub) and then repent of your false doctrine?
 

Brandnewday

Active member
Mar 5, 2020
445
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#57
Of course Jesus died to take the sins of everyone away. That's what the bible tells us. What are we going to do? Argue and say, no! That's not what happened?
I'd be careful of that.
 
Nov 11, 2018
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#58
What about all the Gentiles in the OT?
In the Torah/Pentateuch we find references that include the non-Israelites.

The word "Law" has taken on a very negative persona, but I believe Doctrine, Instructions, Directions, Corrections for blessings/righteousness is the whole of the "law in the OT".

2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

YHWH (The LORD) knew that the people, Israelites and non-Israelites would not be able to keep the "Law" and thus receive the blessings. The provision to bring back "all the peoples" was planned from the beginning of the story of Adam and Eve. That provision was that Immanuel (God with us) would come in the flesh, live a sinless life, die and resurrect and then return back to heaven while Jesus' disciples and the apostles spread the Good News. Is4311.png

Many have wondered "Why did Jesus have to die and resurrect?" And with the Spring months come the question "Was Jesus in the grave for a literal 3 days and 3 nights, and does it even matter?" What is truth and is a half-truth not a lie?

Deu 29:14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
Deu 29:15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:

Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Exo_12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num_15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

Num_15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

So instead of "One Law" we now are "One in Christ".

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
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#59
What about those chosen from the old covenant times who knew nothing of Jesus, they didn’t believe in Jesus, how did they end up in heaven?

By faith, same as we all do.
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
2,604
444
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#60
Sorry, are you saying God doesn't save individuals?
Only a few when compared to those who perish. Think like a first-century Jew and you'll understand.