Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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Jun 2, 2019
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#42
I think it goes something like this

If your trying to obey commands by self will. You will fail

If your loving God and all others (even your enemy) by nature you will keep the commands.

The cammonds b y themselves did not teach how to obey them, only the end result. Jesus, in this passage, showed the secret to obeying them
Hmmm...what exactly should we follow
 

Word_Swordsman

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
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#45
'not under law' is not the same thing as 'do not obey the law'

Suppose you have two people, one under law and one above it. In both cases the individual can either keep or disregard the law - but the one under it, if he disregards it, is liable to be punished under the law, however the one not under it, if he does not keep the law, is not liable to be punished by the law.
This doesn't change anything about the goodness or injustice of whatever law we're talking about - and doesn't say anything about whether the person not under the law can or cannot do the things in the law ((whatever arbitrary law we talk about)). It just means the person not under law is not compelled by the law at all, not required, not punished, not condemned - but the person under the law is, in every way.

One individual is free and the other is not.
Anyone living by the Law is cursed if once in Christ and gone back to it
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#46
I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?
I think Matthew 5;17 says well what Jesus taught about the law:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." ESV

You are probably right that Jesus never directly says to stop keeping the law. As others have said, he lived during the time period of the law. But he does here in Matt. 5:17 clearly say that his coming would fulfill the law: that is, bring it to the purpose for which it was given. And the law was never given to give life, but was given to show the need for the coming of the Messiah and his sacrifice on Calvary.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#47
I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?
A. Paul was taught by direct revelation from JESUS so make no mistake...the words of PAUL are the words of JESUS unless otherwise noted by PAUL

B. JESUS condensed the law and commands down to two....LOVE GOD and LOVE each other

C. And I will again say....NO ONE keeps the LAW or has kept the law except JESUS....never have never will...that is what condemns us as guilty and points us to Christ

D. Break the LEAST of the LAW (which ALL HAVE except JESUS) makes us guilty of the whole law

E. For ONE to say they KEEP the law....they must keep every jot and tittle from their first breath until their last breath otherwise they are a law breaker
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#48
Christ taught "follow me". Do you refute that? Christ obeyed His Father in regard to honoring the days His Father told Him to honor. Are you also opposed to this fact?
Once again, you have attempted to twist my words to make me say something I did not. Please don't do that. Here are your words to which I responded, with emphasis added:

"Christ taught to follow Him and to do that we must include the days of our year that God set aside for us to devote to Him such as Sabbath and Passover."

Christ did not teach that to follow Him we must "include the days...". He taught that we are to believe in Him for salvation.
 
Mar 29, 2019
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#49
I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?
A good question. And the true answer is a dispensational one.

Firstly, the 'ten commandments' and the rest of the Law were given to Israel, and the covenants (both old (Ex19) and new (Jer31) were with Israel - not gentiles. So as gentiles (assuming you are not Jewish), we are not and have never been 'under the Law'.

Exo 19:3-8 "And Moses went up to God, and Jehovah called to him out of the mountain, saying, You shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the sons of Israel: You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. And now if you will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure to Me above all the nations; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the sons of Israel.​
And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which Jehovah commanded him. And all the people answered together and said, All that Jehovah has spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people to Jehovah."​

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah."​
Mat 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant,.."​

In the gospels, Jesus came to the Jews. He observed the Law, and told others do observe the Law.

Joh 8:11 "..And Jesus said to her, Neither do I give judgment. Go, and sin no more."​

Mar 1:44 "and He said to him, See that you say nothing to anyone. But go and show yourself to the priest, and offer those things which Moses commanded for your cleansing.."​

What he didn't approve of was all the Pharisaic additions to the law - their 'traditions'. So, for example, when he picked food and ate on the sabbath, he wasn't breaking the law of Moses, only the added traditions.

After the gospels, during the Acts period, the disciples all continued to observe the law. The law was not abolished at that point. This is evidenced in Acts 15 where we have the big dispute over whether the gentiles needed to be circumcised. Clearly the Jewish believers must have been observing the law to even raise the issue. And what was the result? That the gentiles did NOT need to observe the law, and only to keep from being unceremonially clean - so that the Jews could continue to fellowship with them and themselves remain 'clean'.

Act 15:19-20 Therefore my judgment is that we do not trouble those who have turned to God from among the nations, but that we write to them that they should abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.​
Act 15:28-29 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which, if you keep yourselves, you shall do well. Be prospered.​

For the Jewish believers, if they were not themselves observing the law, then their testimony would be futile. They needed to keep observing the law so they could be faithful witnesses to their Jewish brothers and sisters.

It is only AFTER the end of Acts, when Israel has been set aside (Acts 28:25-28) that we read the law is abolished (through the cross, but not AT the cross), and to not observe sabbaths, feasts, new moons, etc.

Col_2:16 Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or in respect of a feast, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths.​

I am not sure, but I suspect once Jesus returns, the millenial kingdom may again observe the law..

Jer 31:33 "..but this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, says Jehovah, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.​
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#51
Carefully research what you think were His Law breaches which were actually commandments of the Pharisees. Even so it was wisdom to not offend those men lest one be stoned by them. The Pharisees dared sit in Moses’ seat.
When Jesus came to us first He waqs teaching agains what is now referred to as rabbinical teachings, those things the Pharisees were teaching also.

However Jesus did argue the adultressses case freeing her of the penalty of being stoned to death. We are to turn the other cheek and love our enemies. And so much more, such as nothing by entering the body will corrupt the body, rather it is what proceeds from the heart that corrupts, hatreds, murders, thefts, and all sorts of covetness…… He made all foods clean with that teaching, however I believe when we thank God for our meals(everything) it is holy bccause of our Fathr's blessing.

All laws that do not show mercy, justice etc are not to be observed….Jesus teaches this in saying these principles must be applied when observing any commandment or law….if they are not there do not worry about that law.

Jesus taught us all how to live in grace and obedience to Him. I like what He teaches, so do all who believe. God bless you.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#52
There was no provision for man to observe sabbath day until Moses. It was made part of the observances, not for gentiles who had their own laws. So when Jesus died to the Law He died to that seventh day sabbath along with it. That authorized Paul to declare an end of all observances including Passover, among New Covenant believers. Reviving those elements would end faith benefits and resume carnal living appeasing flesh.

There are seven days, God gave the seventh day to us all as a gift not a commandment per se. To spend that day resting fro our mundane work and shar it with Him. Also the Seventh Day is a foretelling of that Seventh day to come, the thousand years .

As pertaining to passover,,Jesus is that Passover Lamb of God. HIs so-called last supper is the celebration of Passover , adn when He says to do this in memory of Me, it can only be so with the Blood of the Lamb of God and His Flesh.

Every Holy week we commemorate the last Passover of our Savior.

All who believe ar praisers of Yaweh (God:) This is what Judah means, short is Jew.

We will all rule with God one day for this is what Israel means, to rule with God.........This is what most understand this to be.

We will all dwell in the New Jerusalem capital of the Israel of God. The walls will be made, composed of, the faith of the sainds. So much to look forward, and nothing to regard behind.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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#54
Marcelo said: The purpose of this thread is to show that Jesus and Paul didn't preach the exact same thing as most, if not all, traditional churches teach.
So jesus and paul contradicted each other? :eek:

No, they just preached different messages.

Jesus vs. Paul

Introduction

Controversy has arisen regarding Jesus versus Paul as scholars debate the different emphases and messages of Jesus and Paul.1 Jesus preached the kingdom of heaven. Paul did not. Paul preached justification by faith alone. Jesus did not. What are we to make of this? Can the two be reconciled? The answer depends on what is meant by reconciliation.

Let us be clear from the outset. The messages of Jesus and Paul were fundamentally different. Reconciliation of their messages cannot be done by harmonization. This is a fact we must accept. No one is helped by attempts to lessen the differences by declaring that the gospel is a salvation story for both Jesus and Paul. The differences remain. No benefit comes from theological gibberish that the gospel is the kingdom and the kingdom is the gospel. No light comes from attempts to show that Paul “betrayed” Jesus or “perverted” His message. No benefit comes from those who maintain Jesus and Paul contradicted or disagreed with one another. Such offerings of strange fire move us further from the text and sound theology. Instead, we must seek a biblical understanding of the Scriptures for reconciliation.

Good News, Bad News

The good news is that this matter is receiving attention. For almost 2,000 years, Paul has been forced into the gospels and the gospels have been forced into Paul–and this continues. Some theologians have recognized problems in this but most fail to provide sound, biblical solutions to resolve the differences between Jesus and Paul. The bad news is that most theological professionals misunderstand why we find differences between Jesus and Paul. Because of this, they lack a sound foundation to reconcile the differences. Here’s a clue: let the reader consider why God kept Paul separated from the Twelve after his conversion and why Paul’s contact with the Twelve was extremely limited (cf. Galatians 1.1, 11-12, 15-19). The purpose of this brief study is to answer the question about how Jesus and Paul can be reconciled (what that means) and end the confusion.

The Messages of Jesus and Paul

The below chart identifies the chief differences in the ministries and message of Jesus and Paul. Each will be analyzed.

Differences of the Ministries of Jesus and Paul

Jesus:
1. Preached the gospel of the kingdom
2. Defined the “kingdom of heaven” as Israel’s prophetic earthly kingdom
3. Presented Himself as the Messiah and King of the Jews (Israel)
4. Preached repentance, water baptism, keeping the Law, forgiving others, and faith in who He was as necessary for salvation
5. Had Jews as His audience (a couple exceptions)


Paul:
1. Preached the gospel of the grace of God
2. Defined the “kingdom of heaven” as the heavenly position of the body of Christ
3. Presented Jesus as the risen Lord, Head of the Church, the body of Christ
4. Preached faith alone in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as necessary for salvation
5. Had Gentiles as his primary audience


Click below to see the entire article.
https://doctrine.org/jesus-vs-paul
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#55
I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?
Hi Marcelo,

What Paul wrote is from the Lord and therefore scripture. Peter confirms this below:

"Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."

In the scripture above, Peter states that Paul's letters are "wisdom God gave him." In addition, he refers to them as scripture. Either Paul's letters are the word of God, or none of them are.

Jesus also said that He came to fulfill the law, i.e. to satisfy it, which is something mankind could not and cannot attain. Scripture also goes on to say the following:

==========================

"It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. Ergo (The best way to not break the law is to have no law to break.)

"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"You foolish Galatians (and anyone who trusts in the law)! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?"

"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

The question regarding being circumcised and obeying the Law of Moses was brought up by the Pharisaic believers:

"But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.

After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days, God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.

Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke (the law) that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Jesus came to fulfill the law, not perpetuate it. Since Jesus already met the righteous requirements of the law, then we have died to the law. Because we are unable to keep the law, it was ammunition for the powers of darkness. Therefore, when we put ourselves back under the law, we give them back their ammo.

Conclusion: "God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it." - NLT
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#56
Jesus preached the kingdom of heaven. Paul did not.
Hi Marcelo, that's true, but only in Matthew. Mark, Luke and John use the "kingdom of God" only, as does Matthew several times, along with the "kingdom of Heaven". Luke uses the "kingdom of God" extensively, but I believe he is referring to the same thing that Matthew was when he used "the kingdom of heaven", wasn't he?

Paul preached justification by faith alone. Jesus did not. What are we to make of this? Can the two be reconciled? The answer depends on what is meant by reconciliation.
What is being taught by Him in verses like these if it is not salvation by faith?

John 3
16 God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 5
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 20
30 Many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - there's more that I'd like to discuss from your post, but I'll stop here for now.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#57
Here’s a clue: let the reader consider why God kept Paul separated from the Twelve after his conversion and why Paul’s contact with the Twelve was extremely limited (cf. Galatians 1.1, 11-12, 15-19).
Did he/was it? Hi again Marcelo, if that's true, then doesn't it seem a bit odd to you that they knew, loved and trusted Paul as a dearly beloved brother in Christ, as an evangelist and teacher, as a leader, and as one of the human author's of the NT? For instance, from the whole church at Jerusalem, incl the members of the church council there we read:

Acts 15
22 It seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
23 and they sent this letter by them,
“The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."

And Peter told us what he thought about both Paul and his Epistles.

2 Peter 3
15 Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - Paul's first missionary journey comes to mind as well:

Acts 13
1 There were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
3 Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia and from there they sailed to Cyprus.
.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#58
Jesus:
5. Had Jews as His audience (a couple exceptions)

Paul:
1. Preached the gospel of the grace of God
5. Had Gentiles as his primary audience
It's true that Jesus preached and performed miracles in/for the people of the Nations, but His principle focus was clearly on Israel.

But, were Gentiles really the "primary" audience of the Apostle Paul's sermons? I believe that Acts shows us that when he taught from town to town on his various missionary journeys that he was actually going from Jewish Synagogue to Jewish Synagogue. IOW, when the Bible tells us that Paul "turned to"* the Gentiles in Acts 13, it's clear that he never turned away from the Jews when he did.

*(that Paul "included" the people of the Nations as part of his mission to the Jews from that point on is probably a better understanding of what actually happened).

As for the Apostle Paul teaching the Gospel of Grace/the "Gospel of Christ" rather than the Gospel of the Kingdom, isn't the Gospel of the Kingdom actually included in the Gospel of Grace/Christ :unsure:

Thanks!

~Deut

Acts 9
10 There was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”
11 And the Lord said to him, “Get up and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying,
12 and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight.”
13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem;
14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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#59
Hi Marcelo, What Paul wrote is from the Lord and therefore scripture.
Hi, Ahwatukee! Yeah, Paul said: "I wasn't taught it, but Jesus Christ revealed it to me".

The thread title is intended to draw attention to the importance of Paul's letters. The earthly Jesus taught obedience to the scribes and the Pharisees, but the resurrected Jesus (through Paul) said we are not under the law of Moses. Were it not for Paul's writings, how would we figure out that salvation is by grace through faith?
 
Jun 4, 2019
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#60
I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?
The Messiah said quite the opposite, "I did not come to abolish the Torah" and "until heaven and earth passes away, not one jot or one tittle will pass from the Torah". And Paul also said, "do we then nullify the Torah by this belief? Certainly not, we uphold Torah". The Torah is still binding and must be obeyed.