Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

DeighAnn

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2019
2,207
722
113
If you want to ignore the meaning of the word "keep" (guard with all our new heart soul and mind) that is your choice. It is written FOR your learning. Only Christ not seen could keep it perfectly . The law of Moses does what it was designed to do. Kill.

The law of faith is designed to heal and create anew. They work great as one perfect law of team work . They represent that father and the Son as one work of faith. One Spirit working as two..
If
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
and
Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Maybe, possibly, because I am not sure, but it may have been that Jesus was following the law in the "original SPIRIT OF TRUTH" in which it was given and not by "the letter of the law" that had been so corrupted by man at that point. Also, it would seem this was a transition period between the Old Covenant "vanishing" and the New Covenant about to be sealed with the blood of the Lamb.
 

DeighAnn

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2019
2,207
722
113
You're right! FOR ALL ISRAEL, not for the Gentiles.
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

So do the "gentiles" NOT have the laws in their mind and on their hearts? Or when a person takes Christ as their Lord and Saviour, do they become a Christian, and become part of the "Spiritual House of Israel"?
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,161
695
113
68
....the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Romans 9:4-5
Paul is saying here that the Law was given to the people of Israel, but he doesn't say that Christians are supposed to keep it.
 

DeighAnn

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2019
2,207
722
113
Yes, most people don't realize that when Jesus was preaching in the flesh, it was still under the Old Testament.

But one thing you might not realized too was that the Jews had a one year extension from his Crucifixion to accept him as their Messiah, so the Law was still in force for that one year. Recall Jesus at the cross ask the Father to "forgive them for they know not what they do?"

That was why, as the OP goes, the resurrected Jesus never told the 11 that the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross. In fact, he told them in the Matthew's version of the GC, to remind the Jews to "obey everything that I have commanded you". That was why Peter and the other Jews continue to follow the Law even in early Acts.

The reasons for the 1 year extension was given in the parable of the fig tree and the gardener in Luke 13:6-9

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

That one year extension expired when Stephen was stoned.
Awesome. I have heard that passage many times and never heard that explanation, but it makes sense. Thank you. I am having a great day with "new insights". I love these days. Anyway as I went to read on this this came up as in reference to it, so for others who may not have known, (I may be the last, but I am good with that)

Isaiah 5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill

Isaiah 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

Isaiah 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

Isaiah 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

Isaiah 5:5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down

Isaiah 5:6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged but there shall come up briers and thorns I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

Isaiah 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

Gods Word is so true, and happens exactly as He states it will.
 

DeighAnn

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2019
2,207
722
113
Paul is saying here that the Law was given to the people of Israel, but he doesn't say that Christians are supposed to keep it.
When you say law do you mean the law of Moses? Are gentiles to follow the law/commands of Christ? or the kingdom of God?
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,161
695
113
68
...All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) Romans 2:1-16
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
My interpretation: If you are not under the Law you will not be judged by the Law. If you are under the Law you will be judged by the Law.
I am not under the Law and therefore if I sin I will be judged by other criteria (not by the law of Moses).

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight
This is true for all types of laws.

but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
This portion of the text seems to affirm that we have to keep the Law. I don't think Paul is making such a statement because he would be contradicting himself. I am not able to examine the whole context now; I'll do it later.

when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
Paul is stating that the Gentiles don't have the Law, i.e., the Law was not made for them.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,161
695
113
68
When you say law do you mean the law of Moses? Are gentiles to follow the law/commands of Christ? or the kingdom of God?
Yes, I mean the law of Moses.

The Gentiles are to follow the New Covenant doctrine (basically, the teachings laid out in all epistles and those of the Earthly Jesus that were not exclusive to the Jews).
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,161
695
113
68
Wow, that has profound implications!

It also explains why the apostles and elders in Acts chapter 15 seem to assume that they have complete authority to bind or loose the entire law.
Acts 15:6-19 New International Version (NIV)

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know ......... ..... 19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Yes, you're right! We clearly see in the portion of Scripture above that the apostles made that decision.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,161
695
113
68
.....For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.....
Those who obey the law will be declared righteous. Can anyone say "I obey the law of Moses"? No, nobody!
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,825
1,060
113
I don't recall of the top of my head what the law of Moses says about paying wages, it is getting later here and I am tired. But Jesus who gives us the law of God is very clear about paying the labourer. :)

Paul quotes Deu 25:4. Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

It follows this:
Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee. (Deu 25:3 KJV)
The wages of sin is in respect to the letter of the law Moses. It is paid in full in respect to the law of faith the unseen . The law of faith it is reckoned by the prophets or or Elisa used to represent the power of Christ faith working in us.

Together they create the perfect or complete law. But not apart from each other.

They represent to the two or three witnesses of God the law and the prophets and psalms.. . the gospel. Also identified as all thing written in the law and prophets and in the psalms . Sola scriptura

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Together they represent the whole law or perfect.

Where Moses is used to represents the letter of the law that kills. Elisa the unseen resurrection power of the new faith of the believer that they have in there earthen bodies but not of them. (2 Corinthians 4:7)

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The gospel. . all things written in the law and prophets will be silenced or killed for a short period

Revelation 11:2-4 King James Version (KJV) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Again two representing one work one ministry . The father and Son, husband and wife .
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,825
1,060
113
Acts 15:6-19 New International Version (NIV)

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know ......... ..... 19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Yes, you're right! We clearly see in the portion of Scripture above that the apostles made that decision.
I would think it was the unseen Holy Spirit that made that decision. The holy men of old . . apostles were moved by the Spirit of Christ that dwelt in them .Just as us today

No authority contributed to the things seen the temporal . . . the apostles. The apostles stand in the same place as those sent out with the gospel today .

Apostle . . sent ones. . with no other meaning applied.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,716
593
113
The wages of sin is in respect to the letter of the law Moses. It is paid in full in respect to the law of faith the unseen . The law of faith it is reckoned by the prophets or or Elisa used to represent the power of Christ faith working in us.

Together they create the perfect or complete law. But not apart from each other.

They represent to the two or three witnesses of God the law and the prophets and psalms.. . the gospel. Also identified as all thing written in the law and prophets and in the psalms . Sola scriptura

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Together they represent the whole law or perfect.

Where Moses is used to represents the letter of the law that kills. Elisa the unseen resurrection power of the new faith of the believer that they have in there earthen bodies but not of them. (2 Corinthians 4:7)

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The gospel. . all things written in the law and prophets will be silenced or killed for a short period

Revelation 11:2-4 King James Version (KJV) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Again two representing one work one ministry . The father and Son, husband and wife .
God is the giver of life and death
 
If
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
and
Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Maybe, possibly, because I am not sure, but it may have been that Jesus was following the law in the "original SPIRIT OF TRUTH" in which it was given and not by "the letter of the law" that had been so corrupted by man at that point. Also, it would seem this was a transition period between the Old Covenant "vanishing" and the New Covenant about to be sealed with the blood of the Lamb.
Well? The "Old Covenant", had become pretty much "null and void" (vanished) long before Jesus was "born in flesh."
Jeremiah 3
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Jesus went into further detail pertaining to "articles of divorce" in:
Luke 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

What's worse? Is this same exact "bill of divorce", occurs in the "New Covenant?" Just like it did in the "Old Covenant." Making Luke 16:15 applicable during these "last days" just as much as they were applicable to scribes and pharasees to whom Jesus was referring to then!
(the proof)
Matthew 7

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

2 Thessalonians 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Isaiah 28
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Hebrews 6
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection
(spiritual maturity); not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Isaiah 28
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Luke 21

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people

THOSE days?!
Are "coming" like a "runaway train" goin' downhill!



 
Aug 17, 2019
226
167
43
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.


My interpretation: If you are not under the Law you will not be judged by the Law. If you are under the Law you will be judged by the Law.


I am not under the Law and therefore if I sin I will be judged by other criteria (not by the law of Moses).




For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight


This is true for all types of laws.




but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.


This portion of the text seems to affirm that we have to keep the Law. I don't think Paul is making such a statement because he would be contradicting himself. I am not able to examine the whole context now; I'll do it later.




when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,


Paul is stating that the Gentiles don't have the Law, i.e., the Law was not made for them.

You're right! FOR ALL ISRAEL, not for the Gentiles.

So we do agree that the law of Moses is for all Israel. If it was given to them then it is a gift for them and is therefore irrevocable.




I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Romans 11:25-29 (Romans 9:4-5)




Whatever laws Israel received from God is irrevocable and cannot be nullified. ( Mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24, Romans 3:31) God would not write His law on/in their hearts if it has been revoked and nullified. And what did the bible/scriptures say about this in the NT?






Life Through the Spirit Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so... Romans 8:1-17




It is written that the Lord Jesus


abolished the law in His flesh.




For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-


22




Why did our Lord Jesus abolish the law in His flesh?


It is to establish it in the spirit as explained in Romans 8 where it says that it was weakened by the sinful nature.


This is the reason why we have to die in our sinful nature and be raised in the spirit.




Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Galatians 5:24-26




This would take a long dizzy merry-go- round and a nauseating roller coaster ride if we don't humble ourselves and submit to the one LAWGIVER and JUDGE who is able to save and to destroy.




Here's an inspiring closing remark from someone given wisdom more than me and you




...Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:9-14




The word/s of the Master is a law to His servants, written on their hearts.




Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and walk in Love.




GOD IS good and His LOVE endures forever. Amen
 

DeighAnn

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2019
2,207
722
113
Well? The "Old Covenant", had become pretty much "null and void" (vanished) long before Jesus was "born in flesh."
Jeremiah 3
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Jesus went into further detail pertaining to "articles of divorce" in:
Luke 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

What's worse? Is this same exact "bill of divorce", occurs in the "New Covenant?" Just like it did in the "Old Covenant." Making Luke 16:15 applicable during these "last days" just as much as they were applicable to scribes and pharasees to whom Jesus was referring to then!
(the proof)
Matthew 7

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

2 Thessalonians 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Isaiah 28
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Hebrews 6
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection
(spiritual maturity); not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Isaiah 28
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Luke 21

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people

THOSE days?!
Are "coming" like a "runaway train" goin' downhill!
Yes, these past couple days I have been having my eyes opened to thoughts I have never had, so a thank you to you too!! I love these days. But yes, I agree. Mr Gardner, tells us, Where is SG? I haven't seen him in past week, have I? I am going to look for him.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
7,792
839
113
No way would he have condoned killing or violence.
Jesus would not have condoned killing or violence of any kind, or just killing or violence done by humans?
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,161
695
113
68
I would think it was the unseen Holy Spirit that made that decision. The holy men of old . . apostles were moved by the Spirit of Christ that dwelt in them .Just as us today

No authority contributed to the things seen the temporal . . . the apostles. The apostles stand in the same place as those sent out with the gospel today .

Apostle . . sent ones. . with no other meaning applied.
This is an interesting remark. We see that there was a discussion (they were not yet of one mind), but the Holy Spirit prevented them from quarreling and the will of God prevailed.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,161
695
113
68
Whatever laws Israel received from God is irrevocable and cannot be nullified. ( Mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24, Romans 3:31) God would not write His law on/in their hearts if it has been revoked and nullified. And what did the bible/scriptures say about this in the NT?
Read Hebrews 8:13

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,161
695
113
68
Life Through the Spirit Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so... Romans 8:1-17
The LAW OF SIN AND DEATH is the law of Moses, is it not?
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,161
695
113
68
It is written that the Lord Jesus abolished the law in His flesh.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-

Why did our Lord Jesus abolish the law in His flesh?
Ephesians 2:15 New International Version (NIV)

by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,