Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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May 1, 2019
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Jesus was born under the law, so he kept the law of Moses.

That said there are a number of issues to understand:

(Gal 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ )

Is the law of Christ the same as the Law of Moses? No.

Paul stated that to be under the law of Moses was to be in effect married/subject to him in his use of the marriage analogy in Romans:

(Rom 7:1-2 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. )

(Rom 7:3-4 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. )

If you are following the law of Moses rather than being "dead" to Moses you are being adulterous and we'd have to stone you :giggle:

You are correct; the law of The Anointed/Christ who is the man we call Jesus was not the same as the written Law of Moses. One was in text form and Jesus took that same Law and reunited it with the Spirit which He had without measure (Jn 3:34)! He came to "Fully Preach" the Law. Look at the context He made that claim;


Mat 5:17 KJV Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Directly after the Sermon on the mount, the most famous impactful spirit filled delivery of the will of God ever given in the History of Mankind! He came to Fully Preach the Law!

Can you even begin to understand what the word fulfil meant in 1600's English? Do you think it means the same today?





G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

LXX related word(s)
H3615 kalah qal,pi
H4390 male qal,ni,pi,pu
H5375 nasa ni.
H7093 miqqets
H7646 sova
H8002 shelem aph.
H8317 sharats be'
H8552 tamam qal,hi
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Okay, thats true, you refer to the law as useful, my bad, so many variences to what peoples positions are. Please forgive that it was unintentional.

Who gave The LAW? I Am did. They were an expression of Him

Who did Jesus confirm He was?

Joh 8:58 KJV Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Thanks for the catch. I usually find it best to interact with each person separately, unless I am making a general comment on the thread topic.

I agree; Jesus gave the Law, but that is different than saying 'Jesus is the Law'.
 
May 1, 2019
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Thanks for the catch. I usually find it best to interact with each person separately, unless I am making a general comment on the thread topic.

I agree; Jesus gave the Law, but that is different than saying 'Jesus is the Law'.
Does this change your mind?:

Joh 8:58 KJV Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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yeshuaofisrael.org
Thanks! So let's start with this commandant as an example
Exodus 22: 16. "If a man entices a virgin who isn't pledged to be married, and lies with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife. 17. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

It appears to have been given at Sinai. Are you able to be certain of why God gave it?
Yes, I can. In most cultures a non-virgin is not considered marriageable. So if a man lay with a woman he must marry her, or she becomes a spinster. Only a father or the bride, if she can convince her father, can put a stop to it. Of course, they would not unless he was too unsuitable for husband material. :cool:
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I would not have to run back, they are no longer carried on the out side, they have become part of who I am. I can not, no matter how hard I would try be able to get rid of them. Not that I would ever try, I learned them for a reason and that reason was so I could know what Jesus knows and I could walk more like Him. Because I love who He is and all He stands for and I want to emulate Him and I want to have my light shine, and those laws are a part of the Holy Spirit just like Jesus is. It is NOT for a prize, but to be a better person. I like having them on my heart and my mind. I love that poke when my flesh starts trying to do something that goes against my spirit. Those are laws that are keep my flesh from doing what it wants which is sin.

I use discard because I just don't understand and it seems to be a word that 'covers" it. I have tried for the past couple days to get my head around it and I don't think I am an inch closer. I will tell you I stand more firm on what side I am on. I know that when I stand before God giving an accounting of my life, and He is discerning my soul and spirit, He will know I loved His guidance and I loved knowing it was HIS guidance and no others and I love the way He wants me to live my life.

I have for the majority of my life used this knowledge to become a better person. I do not even allow my self to think of who I would have been without them. I am trying not to repeat things that have been said but I am not under them by obligation or law, I need them as I use them all the time. You may have your flesh under control, but my Spirit has to put mine down more often that I would like. Those laws written on my heart keep me strong and keep me solid in my Good vs Evil. They are not heavy, not a burden, they are a life saver and God is not going to look at me and say, "you only wanted eternal life" not in a million years. He is going to look at me and say "you really used the heck out of those" and I am going to say "THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, I COULDN'T HAVE DONE IT WITHOUT YOU WITH ME ALL THE TIME"
I can respect that the term, "discard" (or "get rid of") works for you. I have a problem with you using a term that works for you to encompass the position that I hold, because it most definitely does not work for me. I prefer to use biblical terms such as "fulfilled" (Matthew 5:17), "set aside" (Ephesians 2:15 and Hebrews 7:18), or "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13).
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Does this change your mind?:

Joh 8:58 KJV Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Not in the least. I'm well aware of that verse which also doesn't say, "I am the Law".
 
May 1, 2019
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I can respect that the term, "discard" (or "get rid of") works for you. I have a problem with you using a term that works for you to encompass the position that I hold, because it most definitely does not work for me. I prefer to use biblical terms such as "fulfilled" (Matthew 5:17), "set aside" (Ephesians 2:15 and Hebrews 7:18), or "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13).

I think that in order to fully grasp the meaning of what seems to be derogatory terminology used to describe the written law, you would have to recognize the missing component of the "written law" which was the "Spirit" Remember that the israelites were given the option to hear directly but chose a mediator? Well without hearing it from God directly like we do now separated the Spirit from The law. Jesus reunited the two! He then gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit so that with that we might take the letter and Spirit and have the Full Law. It is true that all it did for most people was condemn them! EXCEPT for those who were anointed with the Spirit under whose influence it turned the Law into something BEAUTIFUL to David! Can you deny that?

Look at two part epoxy! One part being a catalyst to the other! That is how I view the written Laws and the Holy Spirit!
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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I can respect that the term, "discard" (or "get rid of") works for you. I have a problem with you using a term that works for you to encompass the position that I hold, because it most definitely does not work for me. I prefer to use biblical terms such as "fulfilled" (Matthew 5:17), "set aside" (Ephesians 2:15 and Hebrews 7:18), or "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13).
these are some other meanings, would have one of these words been used have make you look at it different?
make complete, fully preach, accomplish, cause to abound, perfect
Why does fulfill make an ending of it?
Why isn't taken as "show you it can be done and I didn't set an impossible task upon you"
What if it should have been rendered "Perfected" as if Jesus took out all the stuff that would no longer apply, and left all the rest we would need?
How did you get it off of your heart or is it still on your heart but you don't acknowledge it that it is there?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Yes, I can. In most cultures a non-virgin is not considered marriageable. So if a man lay with a woman he must marry her, or she becomes a spinster. Only a father or the bride, if she can convince her father, can put a stop to it. Of course, they would not unless he was too unsuitable for husband material. :cool:
In most cultures? is the culture that one lives in taken into consideration when deciding if it is a moral law or not?
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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I see the "round em up" you are doing, and I don't agree to being in your dogma corral. So when Jesus said regarding the Holy Spirits charter;

Joh 14:26 KJV But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So the "all things" would not be the Law, and "whatsoever I have said unto you" would exclude His comment on The Law being active even up to the moment "heaven and earth pass away". But no matter how many end runs you make at this you cannot eliminate this comment, nor the one in Revelations;

Rev 14:12 KJV Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

?
Amen! Do you see a connection here.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 12:17


Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12


And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 19:10


 
 
May 1, 2019
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Amen! Do you see a connection here.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 12:17


Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12


And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 19:10


 
Yeah, I do. But the Dragon has a victory over these we are trying to shed light for. Did you read the post I replied to Dino on #1347? So far that's my best attempt to sshow how the Letter of the Law and the Spirit of the Law are essentially two parts of a whole. Anything you think I could add?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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Thank you, they are not bearing fruit, they are bearing self righteousness, Which is sin. And we did not need the law to tell us that was sin, We just needed to see where his motivation or power came from.
This is the seed of error. "Self righteousness is sin"

If you believe this then knowing one is doing a good thing is impossible.
The whole concept of knowing good becomes a sin, which is absurd.

Only problem is with sin and sinful behaviour. Gods people are righteous and if
they are not aware of the difference between right and wrong all is lost.

The problem is pride and a sense of superiority which is not part of love and walking
in Gods ways. It is like saying it is wrong when climbing a cliff that you know you have
a safety rope and wear a helmet and communicate with the person holding the rope.
No. To stay alive you know these things, to not, is to risk your life and probably die.
 

TamLynn

A heart at rest
Nov 27, 2014
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I saw your post with the picture and I thought why are the words " I messed up.I need to call my Dad"look like they are gradually disappearing?

I was wondering If you feel that you must ask forgiveness every time you sin or you won't keep your salvation?
I believe that when I came to faith in Jesus Christ he forgave me of my sins past, present and future.
That being said, when I know I've messed up I do tell him I'm sorry. 😀
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
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these are some other meanings, would have one of these words been used have make you look at it different?
make complete, fully preach, accomplish, cause to abound, perfect
Why does fulfill make an ending of it?
Why isn't taken as "show you it can be done and I didn't set an impossible task upon you"
What if it should have been rendered "Perfected" as if Jesus took out all the stuff that would no longer apply, and left all the rest we would need?
How did you get it off of your heart or is it still on your heart but you don't acknowledge it that it is there?
The other meanings aren't what the writers of Scripture (or the translators) chose.

As I already explained "fulfill" "makes and end of it" like the last payment on a mortgage. You don't keep making payments when you don't owe money.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Do you think Jesus as "I AM" read the Laws He gave to Moses from a book?
Yes, but that still doesn't make Him the Law.

I'm surprised you're having trouble with the distinction. If I write you a letter describing exactly how to interact with me, is that letter me, or am I the letter? No. In the same way, the Law is not Jesus and Jesus is not the Law. You seem to insist on conflating them.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I think that in order to fully grasp the meaning of what seems to be derogatory terminology used to describe the written law, you would have to recognize the missing component of the "written law" which was the "Spirit" Remember that the israelites were given the option to hear directly but chose a mediator? Well without hearing it from God directly like we do now separated the Spirit from The law. Jesus reunited the two! He then gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit so that with that we might take the letter and Spirit and have the Full Law. It is true that all it did for most people was condemn them! EXCEPT for those who were anointed with the Spirit under whose influence it turned the Law into something BEAUTIFUL to David! Can you deny that?

Look at two part epoxy! One part being a catalyst to the other! That is how I view the written Laws and the Holy Spirit!
I gave the scriptural terms. If you think they are derogatory, I suggest that you take it up with the Lord, not with me.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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how precious and sweet Tam's heart is, obviously she understands 'repentance' and Who our High Priest is,
and what His Job is for us...
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
The other meanings aren't what the writers of Scripture (or the translators) chose.

As I already explained "fulfill" "makes and end of it" like the last payment on a mortgage. You don't keep making payments when you don't owe money.
From the BDAG. Which by the way disagrees with you. I highlighted in bold the section that applies. Bauer says it could mean either do, carry out, or as bring to full expression=show it forth in its true mng., or as fill up=complete. So it is not as conclusive as you claim unless one considers the context. Robertson in his work which follows the BDAG excerpt, comes to a conclusion. Please take a look.


BDAG.....a prayer (Chariton 8, 1, 9 πεπληρώκασιν οἱ θεοὶ τὰς εὐχάς; Aristaen., Ep. 1, 16 the god πεπλήρωκε τ. εὐχήν [=prayer]; IBM 894, 8 of answered prayer) πληρῶσαί μου τὴν αἴτησιν answer my prayer ITr 13:3 (cp. Ps 19:5; TestAbr A 15 p. 96, 4 [Stone p. 40]). A command(ment) (Herodian 3, 11, 4 τὰς ἐντολάς; POxy 1252A, 9 πλήρωσον τὸ κεκελευσμένον; 1 Macc 2:55; SibOr 3, 246) πεπλήρωκεν ἐντολὴν δικαιοσύνης Pol 3:3. νόμον (Ps.-Demetr., Form. Ep. p. 12, 9; cp. Hdt. 1, 199 ἐκπλῆσαι τὸν νόμον) Ro 13:8; pass. Gal 5:14 (but s. 3 above and cp. Aeschyl., Ag. 313). τὸ δικαίωμα τοῦ νόμου Ro 8:4. πᾶσαν δικαιοσύνην (cp. 4 Macc 12:14 πλ. τὴν εὐσέβειαν) Mt 3:15 (s. AFridrichsen: Congr. d’Hist. du Christ. I 1928, 167–77; OEissfeldt, ZNW 61, ’70, 209–15 and s. βαπτίζω 2a, end); pass. ISm 1:1 (s. δικαιοσύνη 3b). Also ἐστὶ πρέπον πληρωθῆναι πάντα it is fitting that all things should be fulfilled GEb 18, 40 (cp. APF 3, 1906, 370 II, 7 [II A.D.] ἕως ἅπαντα τὰ κατ᾿ ἐμὲ πεπληρῶσθαι).—A duty or office βλέπε τὴν διακονίαν … , ἵνα αὐτὴν πληροῖς pay attention to your duty … and perform it Col 4:17 (cp. CIG 2336 πλ. πᾶσαν ἀρχὴν κ. λειτουργίαν; PFlor 382, 40 πληρῶσαι τὴν λειτουργίαν; ISardRobert I p. 39 n. 5).—Abs., in the broadest sense and in contrast to καταλύειν (s. καταλύω 3a): οὐκ ἦλθον καταλῦσαι ἀλλὰ πληρῶσαι Mt 5:17; depending on how one prefers to interpret the context, πληρόω is understood here either as fulfill=do, carry out, or as bring to full expression=show it forth in its true mng., or as fill up=complete (s. AKlöpper, ZWT 39, 1896, 1ff; AHarnack, Aus Wissenschaft u. Leben II 1911, 225ff, SBBerlAk 1912, 184ff; JHänel, Der Schriftbegriff Jesu 1919, 155ff; Dalman, Jesus 56–66 confirm; WHatch, ATR 18, ’36, 129–40; HLjungman, D. Gesetz Erfüllen, ’54; WKümmel, Verheissung u. Erfüllung3, ’56; JO’Rourke, The Fulfilment Texts in Mt, CBQ 24, ’62, 394–403).

Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament states, "I came not to destroy, but to fulfil (ουκ ηλθον καταλυσα αλλα πληρωσα). The verb "destroy" means to "loosen down" as of a house or tent (2Co 5:1). Fulfil is to fill full. This Jesus did to the ceremonial law which pointed to him and the moral law he kept. "He came to fill the law, to reveal the full depth of meaning that it was intended to hold" (McNeile).


Let's look at the context
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:17-20 KJV)

First if the Law is not destroyed it is still around in one sense or another.
Second heaven and earth are not passed away.
Third we are still here in this fallen world so all has not been fulfilled.
Forth we are warned not break or teach man to break even the least of these commandments.

So with all that in consideration an honest interpretation of the context must agree with what Robertson concludes. That Jesus "came to fill the law, to reveal the full depth of meaning that it was intended to hold"
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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Wasn't it the bad guys who asked questions of Jesus trying to trip Him up? They, being all about the physical and appearances and position as opposed to seeking out the truth from the Word and all about the spiritual aspects of the laws. We should be trying to edify each other. What fruit kind of fruit are we producing?
The other meanings aren't what the writers of Scripture (or the translators) chose.

As I already explained "fulfill" "makes and end of it" like the last payment on a mortgage. You don't keep making payments when you don't owe money.
ok