Did Jesus Return in AD 70?

[Timeline]

Ez 37:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, [SUP]16 [/SUP]“As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— [SUP]19 [/SUP]say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’ [SUP]20 [/SUP]And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.

[SUP]
21 [/SUP]“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.


Here is God saying he will cause them to turn from their transgressions. And they will be one nation. serving the Lord their God (Jesus)

you do understand this has not occured yet do you not? This is not concerning spiritual Israel. or any gentile. it concerns ONLY the nation of Israel. Who were taken from their land, dispersed throughout all the gentile kingdoms because of her sin. In accords with Lev 26. Which is what happened to its greatest extent in AD70 when rome scattered israel all over her empire, and jew ran to other places..

the restoration is the gift and promise Paul is speaking about in Romans 11. When God TURNS Israel from her wickedness.

Ah, but
Zechariah 11:6-17 says
[SUP] [/SUP]So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then I said, “I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.” [SUP]10[/SUP]I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples.[SUP]11 [/SUP]So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the Lord. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Lord said to me, “Take again for yourself the equipment of a foolish shepherd. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For behold, I am going to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for the perishing, seek the scattered, heal the broken, or sustain the one standing, but will devour the flesh of the fat sheep and tear off their hoofs.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“Woe to the worthless shepherd
Who leaves the flock!
A sword will be on his arm
And on his right eye!
His arm will be totally withered
And his right eye will be blind.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ah, but
Zechariah 11:6-17 says
So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then I said, “I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.” [SUP]10[/SUP]I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples.[SUP]11 [/SUP]So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the Lord. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Lord said to me, “Take again for yourself the equipment of a foolish shepherd. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For behold, I am going to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for the perishing, seek the scattered, heal the broken, or sustain the one standing, but will devour the flesh of the fat sheep and tear off their hoofs.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“Woe to the worthless shepherd
Who leaves the flock!
A sword will be on his arm
And on his right eye!
His arm will be totally withered
And his right eye will be blind.”

what does this have to do with ez. this is what started the dispersion spoken of in ezekial. God split them apart. and made them two nations.. then dispersed them.

exekial 37 talks about the restoring .

two different events are they not?

 

[Timeline]

Ah, but
Zechariah 11:6-17 says
So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then I said, “I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.” [SUP]10[/SUP]I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples.[SUP]11 [/SUP]So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the Lord. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Lord said to me, “Take again for yourself the equipment of a foolish shepherd. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For behold, I am going to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for the perishing, seek the scattered, heal the broken, or sustain the one standing, but will devour the flesh of the fat sheep and tear off their hoofs.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“Woe to the worthless shepherd
Who leaves the flock!
A sword will be on his arm
And on his right eye!
His arm will be totally withered
And his right eye will be blind.”

I assume that you know what the 30 shekels of silver was for?

 

[Timeline]

what does this have to do with ez. this is what started the dispersion spoken of in ezekial. God split them apart. and made them two nations.. then dispersed them.

exekial 37 talks about the restoring .

two different events are they not?

It sounds very similar to me, but I am open for correction (if I can follow)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It sounds very similar to me, but I am open for correction (if I can follow)

Zack 11:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

this is the breaking up of the union.

In Ezek 37, what does it say?

21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 2

 

[Timeline]

Zack 11:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

this is the breaking up of the union.

In Ezek 37, what does it say?

21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 2

Ez and Zech were written well after the separation of Israel from Judah, if you are referring to Rehoboam and Jeroboam.


And Zech was written after Ez.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ez and Zech were written well after the separation of Israel from Judah, if you are referring to Rehoboam and Jeroboam.


And Zech was written after Ez.

so we ignore ezekial and say it will not happen?

AD 70 was the complete removal of All israel from her land. This is when the completion of the prophesies of the OT concerning the dispersion of Isreal occured. Even in Babylonian captivity, Israel was not completely removed from her land.

 

[Timeline]

so we ignore ezekial and say it will not happen?

AD 70 was the complete removal of All israel from her land. This is when the completion of the prophesies of the OT concerning the dispersion of Isreal occured. Even in Babylonian captivity, Israel was not completely removed from her land.

No, we accept that Ez has already happened. In the Babylonian captivity there was remnant left in the land.

 

[Timeline]

peacefulbeliever, Are you there?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, we accept that Ez has already happened. In the Babylonian captivity there was remnant left in the land.

yes. so they were not scattered. Which proves ez 37 could not have been fulfilled. the scattering had not even occured yet.

And again, He says they will not commit their abominable sins anymore. this has not happened yet.

Ez says they were returned AFTER they were scattered.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I just got called to an emergency call will be on the road for about an hour. Just wanted to let you know so you do not think I am ignoring you.

 

[Bookends]

your in romans 9. which is a different context.

lets stick to romans 11.. .

Who says? I believe it all belongs together.

Just had to put my digs in

 

[Larry_Stotle]

I've not read through all the replies here - just joined up.

In regards to a return in 70AD - What a "theology" first has to establish is who is the whor.e in the book of Revelation.

The whor.e was 1st century Jerusalem this places the prophecy of the book within the 1st century AD.

Jesus stated he would return in the clouds:

(Mat 24:30 KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


He also stated that this would occur in the generation that heard him:

(Mat 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


He also stated that some of that generation would be alive to witness that event:

(Mat 16:28 KJV) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

He also told the high priest and the council that some of them would be around to witness his coming in the clouds:

(Mark 14:60 KJV) And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

(Mark 14:61 KJV) But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

(Mark 14:62 KJV) And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

A theology that does not recognize the whor.e of revelation as 1st century AD Israel is starting off on the wrong heading

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I've not read through all the replies here - just joined up.

In regards to a return in 70AD - What a "theology" first has to establish is who is the whor.e in the book of Revelation.

The whor.e was 1st century Jerusalem this places the prophecy of the book within the 1st century AD.

Jesus stated he would return in the clouds:

(Mat 24:30 KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


He also stated that this would occur in the generation that heard him:

(Mat 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


He also stated that some of that generation would be alive to witness that event:

(Mat 16:28 KJV) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

He also told the high priest and the council that some of them would be around to witness his coming in the clouds:

(Mark 14:60 KJV) And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

(Mark 14:61 KJV) But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

(Mark 14:62 KJV) And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

A theology that does not recognize the whor.e of revelation as 1st century AD Israel is starting off on the wrong heading

I am of the opinion the Whore of Babylon is Jerusalem also. However, whoever told you it is Jerusalem in the 1st Century AD and not Jerusalem in the future? Given the other signs surrounding the Whore of Babylon, I am of the opinion this is something yet to pass.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

I am of the opinion the Whore of Babylon is Jerusalem also. However, whoever told you it is Jerusalem in the 1st Century AD and not Jerusalem in the future? Given the other signs surrounding the Whore of Babylon, I am of the opinion this is something yet to pass.

Based on reading the bible without any presuppositions. The book of revelation tell us the timing of the events:

(Rev 1:1 KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ...to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass

(Rev 1:3 KJV) .........for the time is at hand.

(Rev 22:6 KJV) ....to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

(Rev 22:10 KJV)...........Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book - for the time is at hand.

To ignore the time statements and the identity of the whor.e is to miss the point of the imminence statements book ending the revelation


I'm not Roman Catholic by the way:

The whor.e of Babylon is NOT the Roman Catholic church, is not the EU, is not the World Wide Council of churches and is not some rebuilt "Babylon" in Iraq.

The book of revelation and various new testament writings all point to 1st century apostate Israel as the whor.e of Babylon.

Rev 18:4 KJV) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


Apostate Israel - the persecutor of the saints, the killer of prophets and the Lord Jesus"

(Rev 18:5 KJV) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

(Rev 11:8 KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified

Jerusalem is the only place where "our Lord was crucified" - therefore the prophecy is dealing with only that city and apostate Israel that killed him and the prophets.

(1 Th 2:15 KJV) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

(1 Th 2:16 KJV) Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

(Rev 18:5 KJV) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

(Mat 23:31 KJV) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

(Mat 23:32 KJV) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

All this points to a 1st century "wrath" on Babylon - aka 1st century apostate Israel/Jerusalem.

(Mat 23:37 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

(Mat 23:38 KJV) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

No other entity can be accused of killing the prophets.

(Mat 23:36 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.



This all came to pass in 70AD.

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(Rev 17:5 KJV) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

(Rev 18:21 KJV)...........thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.


(Rev 18:23 KJV)............and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee...

So who is this bridegroom and bride?

Rev 21:9 KJV).................I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife...

(Luke 5:35 KJV) But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

It is well known that after the death and resurrection of Jesus that the disciples bore witness to the Jesus in the temple in Israel (aka BABYLON) - James was known to have been a constant witness there.

(Acts 5:42 KJV) And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

This was the voice of of the bridegroom and of the bride that would no longer be found in the temple especially after it's destruction in 70AD if not quite some time before.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I read Revelation without any pre-suppositions. It is clearly about events to come near the end of days. Perhaps they shall pass in my lifetime perhaps centuries after my lifetime. It is pretty clear Revelation have not come to pass yet. Take the destruction of the Whore for example. Jerusalem still stands, for now, but one day that city shall become a great whore of whores and shall be utterly annhilated.

Also I am not a Catholic either btw, nor can I call myself a Protestant either. I merely read the Bible and talk to Christians.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

I read Revelation without any pre-suppositions. It is clearly about events to come near the end of days. Perhaps they shall pass in my lifetime perhaps centuries after my lifetime. It is pretty clear Revelation have not come to pass yet. Take the destruction of the Whore for example. Jerusalem still stands, for now, but one day that city shall become a great whore of whores and shall be utterly annhilated.

Also I am not a Catholic either btw, nor can I call myself a Protestant either. I merely read the Bible and talk to Christians.

How can you say that revelations have not come to pass?

Did you receive the holy spirit? Where do you think that is flowing from?

(John 7:38 KJV) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

The living water has been flowing from the tree of life since the fulfillment of the revelation in 70AD and before - do you know of two rivers of life, did one start flowing in the 1st century and then another that starts flowing when the revelation is fulfilled 1980 +years later?

(Rev 22:1 KJV) And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.



Zechariah and the river of Life:

(Zec 14:2 KJV) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

(Rev 14:8 KJV) And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Escape will happen and coming of the Lord

(Zec 14:5 KJV) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

(Rev 18:4 KJV) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

(Rev 14:1 KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

There will be a time of light:

(Zec 14:6 KJV) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

(Zec 14:7 KJV) But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

(Rev 21:23 KJV) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The Lord will be King and there will be no more curse:

(Zec 14:9 KJV) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

(Rev 22:3 KJV) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

The river of life flows from Jerusalem:

(Zec 14:8 KJV) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

(Rev 22:1 KJV) And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

The nations will come unto Jerusalem:

(Zec 14:16 KJV) ....the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts......

(Rev 21:24 KJV) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

(Rev 21:25 KJV) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

(Rev 21:26 KJV) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

The river of life has been flowing since the 1st century AD, not all the nations are yet are walking in the light of the heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[Timeline]

I am of the opinion the Whore of Babylon is Jerusalem also. However, whoever told you it is Jerusalem in the 1st Century AD and not Jerusalem in the future? Given the other signs surrounding the Whore of Babylon, I am of the opinion this is something yet to pass.

Yeah, All three of us agree that the whore was Jerusalem, so now we can determine the time period. I say 1st century - Because of many of the scriptures that Larry quoted...and more.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

How can you say that revelations have not come to pass?

Multitude of reasons. The 7 seals are yet to be all broken, the seven trumpets are yet to sound, the seven vials are yet to be poured out, etc.

None of the signs in Revelation occured in 70 AD, except possibly the 7 Letters, though it is also a possibility that John received the Revelation after 70 AD (scholars have pointed to John writing Revelation between 60-90 AD.) Therefore the only part of Revelation that may have occured literally is the 7 Letters. Though I personally beleive the 7 Letters are for all beleivers of all time.

The main crux of how I can tell you quite honestly the Revelation of John has not come to pass as of yet is the 6th Seal.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

Let's look at some of the events in the revelation and see if there is any correspondence with what happened in the 1st century AD:

(Rev 9:14 KJV) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

(Rev 9:15 KJV) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Revelation is chocked full of symbol imagery but they do represent an underlying substrata.

We can place this symbolism smack in the 1st century AD and not some future event when we avail ourselves of the history of the war upon Jerusalem from the 1st century historian Josephus.

Around 67AD Vespasian and Titus his son brought the soldiers from four Roman Legions to Judea from the region of the river Euphrates through Syria to attack Judea.

Josephus in his book the Jewish Wars writes of Titus:

...were two thousand men, chosen out of the armies at Alexandria. There followed him also three thousand drawn from those that guarded the river Euphrates

The troops that Titus took with were drawn largely from the the region of the Euphrates.

Tacitus writes that Antiochus of Commagene (a king) whose dominions were located on the Euphrates sent a contingent to the war. Sohemus (another king) whose territories were in the same region sent a force to work with Titus.

These Kings of the east seem to tie in with what John says here:

(Rev 16:12 KJV) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Now this loosing of the four angels would seem to correspond with the symbolic imagery described in Rev 9:14-15 by John and would represent the army of Vespasian and Titus to "to slay the third part of men" and the "drying up of the water" is symbolic imagery of the mobilization of this army with the "kings of the east".