Did Jesus Return in AD 70?

[GodIsSalvation]

Well, I have heard that soon means that it will all take place quickly once it begins and I can agree with that, but I believe that the time is near does mean that it happened right then. I have considered Peter's "one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. But it could apply to the thousand year reign just as easily as it could Revelation. I am not saying that the 1000 year reign was one day, but it really doesn't fit anywhere for me. I lean toward the idea that the 1000 year reign was actually 1000 years, but it is just one of the puzzles.

I truly believe that you can find the fulfillment of every prophecy in (or at least suggested) the bible. I ponder on Isaiah 34 and wonder where these are, but haven't come to any conclusive answers.


34 Draw near, O nations, to hear; and listen, O peoples!
Let the earth and all it contains hear, and the world and all that springs from it.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the Lord’s indignation is against all the nations,
And His wrath against all their armies;
He has utterly destroyed them,
He has given them over to slaughter.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]So their slain will be thrown out,
And their corpses will give off their stench,
And the mountains will be drenched with their blood.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And all the host of heaven will wear away,
And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll;
All their hosts will also wither away
As a leaf withers from the vine,
Or as one withers from the fig tree.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For My sword is satiated in heaven,
Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom
And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
Thus their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its princes will be nothing.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
Nettles and thistles in its fortified cities;
It will also be a haunt of jackalsAnd an abode of ostriches.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
The hairy goat also will cry to its kind;
Yes, the night monster will settle there
And will find herself a resting place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The tree snake will make its nest and lay eggs there,
And it will hatch and gather them under its protection.
Yes, the hawks will be gathered there,
Every one with its kind.[SUP]16[/SUP]Seek from the book of the Lord, and read:
Not one of these will be missing;
None will lack its mate.
For His mouth has commanded,
And His Spirit has gathered them.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]He has cast the lot for them,
And His hand has divided it to them by line.
They shall possess it forever;
From generation to generation they will dwell in it.

The way I see it I should be able to see what each of the animals represent, but I am at a loss. The tree snake reminds me of Eden. I tend to believe that birds often represent the spiritual world (angels and demons) but I am not even sure of that. Ostriches makes me think of the scribes and Pharisees because they are big, flightless birds that can't do much except peck at you with their "beaks" - I find that funny, but yet again inconclusive.


The sky being rolled up reminds me of Rev 6:12-17
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; [SUP]13 [/SUP]and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. [SUP]14 [/SUP]The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; [SUP]16 [/SUP]and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; [SUP]17 [/SUP]for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
which reminds me of the crucifixion and resurrection, but I know that you will not agree with that.

Interesting views.

Now in terms of Isaiah 34, I will have to do some more in depth research, but I believe this prophecy has all ready come to pass, and quite accurately too. As you can see this prophecy deals with the fall of the Kingdom of Edom for reason that they mocked and betrayed the Jews when Babylon took them into captivity. This is a reoccuring prophecy actually with the other prophets. So I would be inclined to believe the animals listed in the prophecy are literal animals, and that the prophecy is describing in great detail the desolation of Edom.

Here is a pretty cool article about Edom, its fall, and history thereafter.
Fulfilled Bible Prophecy Dealing With Nations

Again though, like I said for Isaiah 34 in particular I will need to do more background research on this to come to a more clear determination.

In regards to Revelation 6, yes I do believe this is a future event, and I believe that because of the reoccuring prophecies about The Great Earthquake.

Though I do want to add, I do agree with you on the strong parallels to the Crucifixion. This does remind me of the crucifixion and resurrection as well. I have often wondered if Jesus life, crucifixion, and resurrection was sorta like a living example for the End of Time.

 

[Timeline]

1. Interesting views.
   
   Now in terms of Isaiah 34, I will have to do some more in depth research, but I believe this prophecy has all ready come to pass, and quite accurately too. As you can see this prophecy deals with the fall of the Kingdom of Edom for reason that they mocked and betrayed the Jews when Babylon took them into captivity. This is a reoccuring prophecy actually with the other prophets. So I would be inclined to believe the animals listed in the prophecy are literal animals, and that the prophecy is describing in great detail the desolation of Edom.
   
   Here is a pretty cool article about Edom, its fall, and history thereafter.
   Fulfilled Bible Prophecy Dealing With Nations
   
   Again though, like I said for Isaiah 34 in particular I will need to do more background research on this to come to a more clear determination.
   
   In regards to Revelation 6, yes I do believe this is a future event, and I believe that because of the reoccuring prophecies about The Great Earthquake.
   
   Though I do want to add, I do agree with you on the strong parallels to the Crucifixion. This does remind me of the crucifixion and resurrection as well. I have often wondered if Jesus life, crucifixion, and resurrection was sorta like a living example for the End of Time.

These scriptures come to mind when I read about the earthquake:

Matthew 27:54
Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

Matthew 28:2
And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it.

Acts 16:26
and suddenly there came a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison house were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were unfastened.


And yes, I did use Biblegateway for the search, but I was already aware of them before I did the search. There are a lot of verses that I know, but need a little help remembering where they are exactly. I know that you probably don't mind me using a search, but I have seen people ridicule others for using searches.

There is also one reference to famine in the NT (I thought there were more, but don't know where they would be):

Acts 11:28
One of them named Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius (If you are a history buff, you might know when Claudius reigned, but I do not). Acts 18:2 says, "And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, having recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. He came to them, " so it did happen during the first century, or thereabouts.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

These scriptures come to mind when I read about the earthquake:

Matthew 27:54
Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

Matthew 28:2
And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it.

Acts 16:26
and suddenly there came a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison house were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were unfastened.


And yes, I did use Biblegateway for the search, but I was already aware of them before I did the search. There are a lot of verses that I know, but need a little help remembering where they are exactly. I know that you probably don't mind me using a search, but I have seen people ridicule others for using searches.

There is also one reference to famine in the NT (I thought there were more, but don't know where they would be):

Acts 11:28
One of them named Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius (If you are a history buff, you might know when Claudius reigned, but I do not). Acts 18:2 says, "And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, having recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. He came to them, " so it did happen during the first century, or thereabouts.

Aye I think the earthquake that happened at Jesus crucifixion is indeed something of a rehearsal to the Great Earthquake that is prophesied many times over that will occur near the end of days. Again this leads me to think Jesus Life, Crucifixion, and Resurrection is something of a parallel to the End of Times. Good scriptures indeed!

As for history, aye many great famines have occured before Rome and during Rome era. And there shall be famines to come yet still. As for reign of Claudius, he reigned from 41 to 54 AD. Heh Claudius reign is quite an interesting one to examine. He is one of the only male members of the Julio-Claudian Dynasty to survive Tiberias and Caligula's fratricides, mostly because these two liked to keep him around to make fun of him.

As for referencing Bible Gateway, I usually copy paste from there too, its faster and less typo-filled than me copying out by hand the Bible. Very useful resource that I was not even aware of until I started coming to this site. So you will find no insults from me for using that website, in fact I'd encourage using that site.

 

[Timeline]

I was suggest that there are many places in the bible where a literal event marks the occurrence of more than the actual literal event itself. You can probably think of a few yourself, some that we might not be aware of had the bible not pointed them out:

Melchizedek - Hebrews 7
The two covenants represented by Hagar and Sarah - Galatians 4
Brought through the water - 1 Peter 3
Baptized into Moses - 1 Corinthians 10
Formed out of water and by water - 1 Peter 3
Not all Israel descended from Israel - Romans 9 (that one was for you EG)

 

[Timeline]

Aye I think the earthquake that happened at Jesus crucifixion is indeed something of a rehearsal to the Great Earthquake that is prophesied many times over that will occur near the end of days. Again this leads me to think Jesus Life, Crucifixion, and Resurrection is something of a parallel to the End of Times. Good scriptures indeed!

As for history, aye many great famines have occured before Rome and during Rome era. And there shall be famines to come yet still. As for reign of Claudius, he reigned from 41 to 54 AD. Heh Claudius reign is quite an interesting one to examine. He is one of the only male members of the Julio-Claudian Dynasty to survive Tiberias and Caligula's fratricides, mostly because these two liked to keep him around to make fun of him.

As for referencing Bible Gateway, I usually copy paste from there too, its faster and less typo-filled than me copying out by hand the Bible. Very useful resource that I was not even aware of until I started coming to this site. So you will find no insults from me for using that website, in fact I'd encourage using that site.

I hope this doesn't disturb you, but I believe I have some scriptural reasons to believe that Jesus' ministry was 20 years instead of 3. I find it interesting that "everyone" seems to agree that His ministry was 3 years when outside of prophecy (if it is being interpreted properly) there is nothing to make anyone come to this conclusion that is in the bible. I want to go ahead and say right now that I am not certain that His ministry was 20 years, but it is something that I have been considering.

 

[Timeline]

I hope this doesn't disturb you, but I believe I have some scriptural reasons to believe that Jesus' ministry was 20 years instead of 3. I find it interesting that "everyone" seems to agree that His ministry was 3 years when outside of prophecy (if it is being interpreted properly) there is nothing to make anyone come to this conclusion that is in the bible. I want to go ahead and say right now that I am not certain that His ministry was 20 years, but it is something that I have been considering.

The only person that could answer how we came to the "3 year ministry" conclusion was a catholic priest (where I was do a security job). He told me that it was because the bible says that Jesus went to 3 Passovers (I have not confirmed that), but that definitely is not conclusive for a "3 year ministry".

I bring this up because you said that Claudius' reign was til 54 AD.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I hope this doesn't disturb you, but I believe I have some scriptural reasons to believe that Jesus' ministry was 20 years instead of 3. I find it interesting that "everyone" seems to agree that His ministry was 3 years when outside of prophecy (if it is being interpreted properly) there is nothing to make anyone come to this conclusion that is in the bible. I want to go ahead and say right now that I am not certain that His ministry was 20 years, but it is something that I have been considering.

Brother nothing on this site disturbs me lol, I have seen much more disturbing things in my short life than a little Bible Discussion. So no need to feel worried.

Hmm interesting view and I have not considerred this before. Though I would argue Jesus ministry is forever since he is the Word. Interesting viewpoint either way though. I am curious what leads you to think his ministry while in the flesh was 20 years.

 

[Bookends]

Don't see why not, they're still throwing stones at people to this very day it is the most common weapon. Also you are pre-supposing that when the seals start breaking that technology and civilization will be at the same level as it is today. I tell you now, all this vain technology and civilization as we know it today can be set back to the Dark Ages within less than one year.

To get to this point would take something big. So is where is the event prophecied in Revelation, it would have to before the stones weighing a talent.

 

[Bookends]

How do you know those aren't 'churches' in existence in the future just before the Tribulation?

What Tribulation in specific are you referring to? We know these churches aren't future because John doesn't say they are, and we know they already existed.

 

[Bookends]

I've not read through all the replies here - just joined up.

In regards to a return in 70AD - What a "theology" first has to establish is who is the whor.e in the book of Revelation.

The whor.e was 1st century Jerusalem this places the prophecy of the book within the 1st century AD.

Jesus stated he would return in the clouds:

(Mat 24:30 KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


He also stated that this would occur in the generation that heard him:

(Mat 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


He also stated that some of that generation would be alive to witness that event:

(Mat 16:28 KJV) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

He also told the high priest and the council that some of them would be around to witness his coming in the clouds:

(Mark 14:60 KJV) And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

(Mark 14:61 KJV) But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

(Mark 14:62 KJV) And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

A theology that does not recognize the whor.e of revelation as 1st century AD Israel is starting off on the wrong heading

Don't forget about what Jesus said to the woman on the road to Calvary, Luke 23;

27 And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him. 28 But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’ 30 Then they will begin ‘to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’[g]31 For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?”

 

[GodIsSalvation]

To get to this point would take something big. So is where is the event prophecied in Revelation, it would have to before the stones weighing a talent.

Well the great war Daniel speaks about could be a great way to set back technology and civilization to more rustic times. Another Biblical possibility is the major disasters foretold in Revelation, particularly the breaking of the 7 Seals.

If we want to be a little more secular about it, simply one or two nuclear devices or EMPs detonated high in the atmosphere would be sufficient enough to snuff out most satellite based technology and pretty much all of the power grid. Or simply one does it like the Dark Ages and a few years of total chaos and warfare be enough to reset civilization.

Since the Dark Ages did in fact happen and undreamed of technology was lost forever or not rediscovered until 100-200 years ago and something like 90% of all knowledge was wiped away forever, it is not an implausible scenario that all civilization as we see it today can vanish in a heartbeat.

 

[Timeline]

Brother nothing on this site disturbs me lol, I have seen much more disturbing things in my short life than a little Bible Discussion. So no need to feel worried.

Hmm interesting view and I have not considerred this before. Though I would argue Jesus ministry is forever since he is the Word. Interesting viewpoint either way though. I am curious what leads you to think his ministry while in the flesh was 20 years.

Well, the first thing that brought this possibility to my attention was John 8:57
John 8:57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
but this was not enough to bring it up to anyone, so I kept note of it in my mind.


Then I read Numbers 4 and thought, "Does this carry over to Jesus' ministry?" It would be good if you read Numbers 4, but it says ,"by their families, by their fathers’ households, [SUP]3 [/SUP]from thirty years and upward, even to fifty years old" and bunch of times and in Numbers 8:25 it says, "But at the age of fifty years they shall retire from service in the work and not work any more."

Then I read Gen 31:41, "These twenty years I have been in your house; I served you fourteen years for your two daughters and six years for your flock, and you changed my wages ten times." and as I have said before there are many places in the bible that symbolize things other than the literal event. I believe that this may represent Jesus' ministry. I think you will agree that there are places where Jesus says that He was sent to the Jews and then later He goes to Samaria and then to the gentiles. I could have the chronology mixed up, but I believe that Leah is probably Samaria and Judah would probably be Rachel...the Gentiles would be the animals (nice, huh). There is even a reference where Jesus says that it is not good to take the children's bread and give it to dogs in Matthew 15:21-28, "[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” [SUP]23 [/SUP]But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” [SUP]24 [/SUP]But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” [SUP]25 [/SUP]But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” [SUP]26 [/SUP]And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” [SUP]27 [/SUP]But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” [SUP]28 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once." At little harsh, but it seems to go with my theory, a least doesn't discredit it.

I think there is more, but that is all I can think of right now. Again, not conclusive, but it has made me think about it more.

 

[Bookends]

I read Revelation without any pre-suppositions. It is clearly about events to come near the end of days. Perhaps they shall pass in my lifetime perhaps centuries after my lifetime. It is pretty clear Revelation have not come to pass yet. Take the destruction of the Whore for example. Jerusalem still stands, for now, but one day that city shall become a great whore of whores and shall be utterly annhilated.

Also I am not a Catholic either btw, nor can I call myself a Protestant either. I merely read the Bible and talk to Christians.

The earthly Jerusalem does not stand now as the economy of God, She lost that privilege when she as a whole rejected the messiah, the Christ, her king. Remember the crowd cried out we have no king but Caesar? Also in Matthew 21:43 Jesus says He is going to take the Kingdom of God away from her and given to someone else; "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it." That other people is the church, Peter makes that clear in 1 Peter 2;

[h=3]The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People[/h]4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”[b]

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,[c]
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”[d]

8 and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”[e]

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

 

[Timeline]

To get to this point would take something big. So is where is the event prophecied in Revelation, it would have to before the stones weighing a talent.

I do agree with GiS on this. It would not be inconceivable for civilization as we know it to "crash", but I do believe that prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, so the crash of civilization would not be fulfillment of prophecy, but it would probably be from God. And before you say that God said that He tells his prophets before He does anything, I would answer that we/the current world would probably not listen to "this prophet" if he does exist. I don't really think God uses prophets anymore, though I would not be so bold as to insist that He does not.

 

[Bookends]

Well the great war Daniel speaks about could be a great way to set back technology and civilization to more rustic times. Another Biblical possibility is the major disasters foretold in Revelation, particularly the breaking of the 7 Seals.

If we want to be a little more secular about it, simply one or two nuclear devices or EMPs detonated high in the atmosphere would be sufficient enough to snuff out most satellite based technology and pretty much all of the power grid. Or simply one does it like the Dark Ages and a few years of total chaos and warfare be enough to reset civilization.

Since the Dark Ages did in fact happen and undreamed of technology was lost forever or not rediscovered until 100-200 years ago and something like 90% of all knowledge was wiped away forever, it is not an implausible scenario that all civilization as we see it today can vanish in a heartbeat.

So mankind wipes out mankind? or Does God wipe out mankind? Or does God use mankind to wipe out mankind? I could the last as a possible answer, but I think God has reserved the destruction of the world for Himself.

As for Daniel, I think it's done. You'd have to be more specific what scripture you are referring too.

 

[Bookends]

The earthly Jerusalem does not stand now as the economy of God, She lost that privilege when she as a whole rejected the messiah, the Christ, her king. Remember the crowd cried out we have no king but Caesar? Also in Matthew 21:43 Jesus says He is going to take the Kingdom of God away from her and given to someone else; "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it." That other people is the church, Peter makes that clear in 1 Peter 2;

The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People

4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”[b]

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,[c]
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”[d]

8 and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”[e]

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

I might add that there is no promise no prophecy of giving physical Jerusalem back the kingdom of God. If there is, please correct me.

 

[Timeline]

Well the great war Daniel speaks about could be a great way to set back technology and civilization to more rustic times. Another Biblical possibility is the major disasters foretold in Revelation, particularly the breaking of the 7 Seals.

If we want to be a little more secular about it, simply one or two nuclear devices or EMPs detonated high in the atmosphere would be sufficient enough to snuff out most satellite based technology and pretty much all of the power grid. Or simply one does it like the Dark Ages and a few years of total chaos and warfare be enough to reset civilization.

Since the Dark Ages did in fact happen and undreamed of technology was lost forever or not rediscovered until 100-200 years ago and something like 90% of all knowledge was wiped away forever, it is not an implausible scenario that all civilization as we see it today can vanish in a heartbeat.

So mankind wipes out mankind? or Does God wipe out mankind? Or does God use mankind to wipe out mankind? I could the last as a possible answer, but I think God has reserved the destruction of the world for Himself.

As for Daniel, I think it's done. You'd have to be more specific what scripture you are referring too.

I think he is referring to the battle with Michael, but I believe this happened when Jesus said, "And He said to them,“I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning." in Luke 10:18. I don't know why, but it seems that this battle might have happened even before the crucifixion and resurrection. Especially if you believe that Satan was cast out before or at the Eden story, but I do not, since Satan seems to be able to commute back and forth in Job. Why God wouldn't have kicked him out earlier - I guess I won't know that until I shed this fleshly body.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

So mankind wipes out mankind? or Does God wipe out mankind? Or does God use mankind to wipe out mankind? I could the last as a possible answer, but I think God has reserved the destruction of the world for Himself.

As for Daniel, I think it's done. You'd have to be more specific what scripture you are referring too.

God does not wipe out mankind, God saves mankind, though He will wipe out the world. I was merely positing a few examples where either biblically or secularly one should be mindful that all technology and civilization as we know it can vanish very very quickly.

As for the great war described by Daniel I was referring to Chapters 11 and 12 (Though just to note it is believed by some scholars that Chapter 11 may have been fulfilled with Alexander the Great's conquests.)

 

[Bookends]

I do agree with GiS on this. It would not be inconceivable for civilization as we know it to "crash", but I do believe that prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, so the crash of civilization would not be fulfillment of prophecy, but it would probably be from God. And before you say that God said that He tells his prophets before He does anything, I would answer that we/the current world would probably not listen to "this prophet" if he does exist. I don't really think God uses prophets anymore, though I would not be so bold as to insist that He does not.

Well, I believe that God does not use prophets in the same capacity as He did in OT times, especially no new revelation. I go to Hebrews 1 to support this; "God who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in THESE LAST DAYS spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;..."

Also when false teaching or new revelation came into the church, what did the Apostle John say, (paraphrase) "Go back to the beginning" in other words hold onto what was first taught (1 John 1:1, 1 John 2:7, 1 John 2:14, **1 John 2:24** 1 John 3:11**).. I'm not going to say concretely of what may or may not happen in the future, all I know is Jesus is coming back to fully manifest His kingdom, a remade earth/world/universe without sin. I will say this, John tells us that darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining (1 John 2:8). This is the eschatology of John, and if it's good enough for John, it's good enough for me.

 

[Bookends]

I think he is referring to the battle with Michael, but I believe this happened when Jesus said, "And He said to them,“I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning." in Luke 10:18. I don't know why, but it seems that this battle might have happened even before the crucifixion and resurrection. Especially if you believe that Satan was cast out before or at the Eden story, but I do not, since Satan seems to be able to commute back and forth in Job. Why God wouldn't have kicked him out earlier - I guess I won't know that until I shed this fleshly body.

Hmmm, It is my belief that Satan was kicked out before the creation of Adam, but still had access to God. The imagery of Satan falling from Heaven suggests to me of Satan's final defeat, of Christ on the Cross, in which Satan desperately tried to squelch from the beginning.