Did Jesus Return in AD 70?

[eternally-gratefull]

Point 1: Romans 9:6-8 [SUP]6 [/SUP]But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;[SUP]7 [/SUP]nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac (that would be referring to jesus) your descendants will be named.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Gentiles/Christians are the children of the promise! (this extends into your point 2)



Point 2: Romans 11:17-24 [SUP]17 [/SUP]But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [SUP]18 [/SUP]do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; [SUP]21 [/SUP]for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
and
Ephesians 3:1-13 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— [SUP]2 [/SUP]if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; [SUP]3 [/SUP]that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. [SUP]4 [/SUP]By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, [SUP]5 [/SUP]which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;[SUP]6 [/SUP]to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, [SUP]7 [/SUP]of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. [SUP]8 [/SUP]To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; [SUP]10 [/SUP]so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. [SUP]11 [/SUP]This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,[SUP]12 [/SUP]in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.



Point 3: Yes, I know that it was part of the Mosaic covenant - I quoted so that it would be read.

You stopped far to short in romans 11.. There are other things which Paul said would occure.. We must not take them for granted, or we will miss the picture. of Gods work here on earth.

 

[crossnote]

Point 1: Romans 9:6-8 [SUP]6 [/SUP]But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;[SUP]7 [/SUP]nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac (that would be referring to jesus) your descendants will be named.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Gentiles/Christians are the children of the promise! (this extends into your point 2)



Point 2: Romans 11:17-24 [SUP]17 [/SUP]But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [SUP]18 [/SUP]do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; [SUP]21 [/SUP]for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
and
Ephesians 3:1-13 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— [SUP]2 [/SUP]if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; [SUP]3 [/SUP]that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. [SUP]4 [/SUP]By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, [SUP]5 [/SUP]which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;[SUP]6 [/SUP]to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, [SUP]7 [/SUP]of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. [SUP]8 [/SUP]To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; [SUP]10 [/SUP]so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. [SUP]11 [/SUP]This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,[SUP]12 [/SUP]in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.



Point 3: Yes, I know that it was part of the Mosaic covenant - I quoted so that it would be read.

ROm 9:6- That's comparing believing Israel with non believing Israel...nothing to do with believing Gentiles.
Rom 11:17 -we are co- partakers of the spiritual blessings not the physical. The church as quoted was a mystery kept secret until the outpouring of the Spirit. The Abrahamic Covenant was well known since Abraham. God willl not reneg on either promises to Abraham or to the Church.

 

[Timeline]

well if this is the new heavens and new earth, You can have it. This earth is more polluted, More evil, and more dangerous than the earth of their day.



Yes, sometimes that does happen. But if we look up to the time of Christ, All the physical prophesies came true literally not only to the day, But to the event. If everything preChrist was fulfilled to the T literally. Why would we turn around and spiritualize all prophesies which come after Christ.

God did not change the reason and meaning of prophesy, It proves he is the one true God. Agents of satan can make allegorical prophesies and they seem to come true (since no one can prove they did not) God is proving he is God by making prophesy which NO ONE can deny came true. The only way this can happen is to have a literal fulfillment.

I don't know if you read what I wrote, but I believe there was literal fulfillment, but the spiritual is more significant.

But if God is not going to keep his physical promises. There is no hope for any of us. Because he could just as easily take away his spiritual promises.

Then again, that is exactly what satan wants us to think. If he can dim our hope even a little, he has impeded our ability to work for Christ.

I think God's promises are and were kept! I do however think that many people claim that He has not kept them, but that does not mean that what they understand or claim is true. That would just make them wrong.

I know that you know this, but it must be said, God will decide whether He has kept His promises or not - And I don't imagine there will be much debate about it.

My faith is not dimmed my hope! I find it very refreshing and uplifting that Jesus was and is our salvation - Does Jesus being the answer, impede YOUR ability to work for Jesus.? I doubt it.

 

[Timeline]

You stopped far to short in romans 11.. There are other things which Paul said would occure.. We must not take them for granted, or we will miss the picture. of Gods work here on earth.

Continue with your Romans 11.

You do realize that I read/have read more that I quote. I have read them, you have read them, and neither of us can quote the whole bible.

 

[Timeline]

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Romans 6:10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

It's funny, you keep telling me to read forward in Romans; I keep telling you that you have not paid enough attention to the beginning of Romans. It seems to me that if you miss "the setup" of dialogue as Romans develops then you will not be able follow what Paul is talking about as you proceed.

 

[Kerry]

Christ returned in 70 A.D. the destruction of Israel and the temple that's a triumphant return don't you think. The chosen people under bondage and scattered that's a good king, not. Maybe mother goose but not bible. I'm thinking some one want be here long so try fast to convince him.

 

[Timeline]

Christ returned in 70 A.D. the destruction of Israel and the temple that's a triumphant return don't you think. The chosen people under bondage and scattered that's a good king, not. Maybe mother goose but not bible. I'm thinking some one want be here long so try fast to convince him.

If you are hoping for an earthly stone building, then no, He is not a good King. But if you realize that He has extended grace to ALL that will accept Him and that the temple is now being built across the planet as the Church (regardless of the name on the sign - being more about our convictions and our heart), then He is a great King. And He is the great King! I think that it is reckless to say that He is not a good king because things aren't the way that we think they should be. I think it is not good to say that He is a bad king at all.

 

[Larry_Stotle]

If you are hoping for an earthly stone building, then no, He is not a good King. But if you realize that He has extended grace to ALL that will accept Him and that the temple is now being built across the planet as the Church (regardless of the name on the sign - being more about our convictions and our heart), then He is a great King. And He is the great King! I think that it is reckless to say that He is not a good king because things aren't the way that we think they should be. I think it is not good to say that He is a bad king at all.

Right on..

(John 18:36 KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[Kerry]

I guess klingon is next on this banana boat. see ya.

 

[Timeline]

I guess klingon is next on this banana boat. see ya.

Scripture, please.

 

[Kerry]

There is no scripture that supports this mother goose story.

 

[Kerry]

So provide the date that Jesus set His feet on the mount of olives and it split.

 

[Linda70]

Is this one of those threads which teaches Preterism?

 

[Timeline]

Is this one of those threads which teaches Preterism?

No, This is a thread that started as an objection to Preterism, but where fulfillment of most or all of the prophecies in the bible are acknowledged.

 

[Timeline]

So provide the date that Jesus set His feet on the mount of olives and it split.

Would you be wanting a date by the Hebrew Calendar of the Gregorian Calendar (which was not used until well after the "1st century".

 

[Atwood]

The short answer to the thread question (Did Christ Return in 70 AD) is'
no. "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."

Pardon me for suggesting some revisions of the Outline:

The Signs of Christ's Coming and of the Consummation of the Age


3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.

The Beginning of Birthpangs

5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birthpangs.

The Great Tribulation

General Conditions

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Flight

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

False "Comings of Christ"

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

After the Great Tribulation

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Parable of the Fig Tree

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors!34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.


What "things" is Jesus referring to? Clearly He's referring to what He has just elucidated from verse four through verse 31. In other words, the generation that sees all the things (not some, not most, but ALL)

[Great Observation!]

The all-important question is, have all the events spoken of by Jesus taken place as they were taught by Him? A clue to understanding this is a detail such as is found in vs. 9 - "you will be hated by all nations on account of my name"

Factors that need to be considered are: vs. 12 and "most people's love will grow cold". The context of this verse is Christ talking about believers. Was this happening to a marked degree in AD 70? There's no biblical or extra biblical support for such a conclusion. Then, in vs. 14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world..." Had the entire world heard the message of the gospel by AD 70? The preterist sites Romans 1:8 as support that the gospel had indeed reached the entire world

[not "the gospel," but "this gospel of the kingdom," i.e., Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand; Rom 1:8 does not have the word "gospel" in it. I think it is a hyperbole anyway.]

2 Timothy 2:16-18 New King James Version (NKJV)

16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

[Well, as to some versions of preterism (there are a variety), I am not ready to hang "profane babblings" on the advocates yet. At least if one believe that the Trib is past, one may yet believe in an imminent rapture, which is harder to do if one is post-trib. There is a rather fabulous website called something like the preterist archive. That guy has a ton of stuff free to read or download on that site]

 

[Atwood]

The date? Wasn't it May 21, 2011?

 

[Kerry]

Would you be wanting a date by the Hebrew Calendar of the Gregorian Calendar (which was not used until well after the "1st century".

I would accept any date from any calendar that showed where Jesus set His feet on the Mt of olives and it split in half.

 

[Timeline]

The short answer to the thread question (Did Christ Return in 70 AD) is'
no. "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."

Pardon me for suggesting some revisions of the Outline:

The Signs of Christ's Coming and of the Consummation of the Age


3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.

The Beginning of Birthpangs

5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birthpangs.

The Great Tribulation

General Conditions

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Flight

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

False "Comings of Christ"

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

After the Great Tribulation

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Parable of the Fig Tree

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors!34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.


What "things" is Jesus referring to? Clearly He's referring to what He has just elucidated from verse four through verse 31. In other words, the generation that sees all the things (not some, not most, but ALL)

[Great Observation!]

The all-important question is, have all the events spoken of by Jesus taken place as they were taught by Him? A clue to understanding this is a detail such as is found in vs. 9 - "you will be hated by all nations on account of my name"

Factors that need to be considered are: vs. 12 and "most people's love will grow cold". The context of this verse is Christ talking about believers. Was this happening to a marked degree in AD 70? There's no biblical or extra biblical support for such a conclusion. Then, in vs. 14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world..." Had the entire world heard the message of the gospel by AD 70? The preterist sites Romans 1:8 as support that the gospel had indeed reached the entire world

[not "the gospel," but "this gospel of the kingdom," i.e., Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand; Rom 1:8 does not have the word "gospel" in it. I think it is a hyperbole anyway.]

2 Timothy 2:16-18 New King James Version (NKJV)

16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

[Well, as to some versions of preterism (there are a variety), I am not ready to hang "profane babblings" on the advocates yet. At least if one believe that the Trib is past, one may yet believe in an imminent rapture, which is harder to do if one is post-trib. There is a rather fabulous website called something like the preterist archive. That guy has a ton of stuff free to read or download on that site]

I was with you while you were just quoting scripture, but you lost me when you started interpreting it. There is evidence or turning away by the "elect" in the bible.

Galatians 2:1-14
2 Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. [SUP]2 [/SUP]It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.[SUP]5 [/SUP]But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you. [SUP]6[/SUP]But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised [SUP]8 [/SUP](for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), [SUP]9 [/SUP]and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. [SUP]10 [/SUP]They only asked us to remember the poor—the very thing I also was eager to do. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

 

[Kerry]

yeah ok, thats what I thought. Good nite.