Well the rainbow is still here. 
But if I want to be honest - A good portion of the world, as well as the Jews are still circumcised.
But if I want to be honest - A good portion of the world, as well as the Jews are still circumcised.
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That's the point, just because they were born from Abraham and were physically circumcised doesn't make them a Jew...they had to come through the line of Abraham...Isaac... and Jacob to be one.
E
I never said it did, it was never given as God's economy, God proved this.
1. When he waited till the sin of the people of the land was complete (400 years)
2. When he sent Jonah to Ninevah to get them to repent.
etc
may be so, but it still had a purpose. Why would God say he would use that land and the nation of Israel. so that all the nations would Know That God is the God of Israel. and the true God of heaven (which has never happened, even till this day) if it was not to be fulfilled?
Ah, but the kingdom of God was never some land in the middle east. It was always a spiritual land. So this is flawed logic. And also the context of what Paul was trying to show in romans 9. That not all are israel who are israel. It never had anything to do with land, That is where the nation of Israel Got it wrong.
Actually yes he does, In romans 11. In Ezek 36 and many other places..
If the land of canaan given to a nation which still exists does not belong to that nation, and if they repent (which prophesy says they will) and God does not restore them to that land, Then God most certainly does break his promises.
that is not the topic of question
Peter asked what would be the sign of the end of the age, and the sign of his coming, Christ gave it in matt 24. The great tribulation, Etc Etc..
It is when he comes according to prophesy that Israel repents, and is restored. When the gentile nations who treated her badly while they were in their care are punished, When he sets up his earthly kingdom. Where he binds satan, Rules with a rod of iron. All nations go to him and worship him year after year, And all nations know and understand, that the God of Israel is the God of the heavens and the earth. and as Ezekial was told. They shall know that the Lod God has cleansed Isreal.
1. When he waited till the sin of the people of the land was complete (400 years)
2. When he sent Jonah to Ninevah to get them to repent.
etc
may be so, but it still had a purpose. Why would God say he would use that land and the nation of Israel. so that all the nations would Know That God is the God of Israel. and the true God of heaven (which has never happened, even till this day) if it was not to be fulfilled?
Ah, but the kingdom of God was never some land in the middle east. It was always a spiritual land. So this is flawed logic. And also the context of what Paul was trying to show in romans 9. That not all are israel who are israel. It never had anything to do with land, That is where the nation of Israel Got it wrong.
Actually yes he does, In romans 11. In Ezek 36 and many other places..
If the land of canaan given to a nation which still exists does not belong to that nation, and if they repent (which prophesy says they will) and God does not restore them to that land, Then God most certainly does break his promises.
that is not the topic of question
Peter asked what would be the sign of the end of the age, and the sign of his coming, Christ gave it in matt 24. The great tribulation, Etc Etc..
It is when he comes according to prophesy that Israel repents, and is restored. When the gentile nations who treated her badly while they were in their care are punished, When he sets up his earthly kingdom. Where he binds satan, Rules with a rod of iron. All nations go to him and worship him year after year, And all nations know and understand, that the God of Israel is the God of the heavens and the earth. and as Ezekial was told. They shall know that the Lod God has cleansed Isreal.
Racially that would be so. Isaac's Race of course had special blessing though Ishmael and his Races were no less blessed in this covenant too. Then of course we go to Isaac's sons and the races of Edom and Israel. Then of course we have the 12 Tribes all important, but with special attention to Judah.
However race even in Abraham's time before Judah and Jacob/Israel were even born was not the only way to be part of God's covenant. Also anyone bought or a servant. Not all of Israel was racially of Israel. Look at Ruth for instance she was a Moabite, yet was she not the foremother of King David and bought into the Covenant by Jesus through Naomi her mother-in-law and Boaz her husband?
However race even in Abraham's time before Judah and Jacob/Israel were even born was not the only way to be part of God's covenant. Also anyone bought or a servant. Not all of Israel was racially of Israel. Look at Ruth for instance she was a Moabite, yet was she not the foremother of King David and bought into the Covenant by Jesus through Naomi her mother-in-law and Boaz her husband?
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You have NEVER heard me say that. Christ is yet to come and YET TO ESTABLISH the Kingdom of God. If this si the best He can do reigning over the earth...
1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For "HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
1Co 15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
then we need to look eslewhere. Fortunately, this is not God's world...
2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
Joh 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
He hasn't come yet.
1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For "HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
1Co 15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
then we need to look eslewhere. Fortunately, this is not God's world...
2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
Joh 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
He hasn't come yet.
C
Well the rainbow is still here.
But if I want to be honest - A good portion of the world, as well as the Jews are still circumcised.
But if I want to be honest - A good portion of the world, as well as the Jews are still circumcised.
This is closer to what I am referring to...
Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
and the promise was thru Isaac.
Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
and the promise was thru Isaac.
E
Amen
God recomfirmed his covenant through and to both Issac and Jacob, by who he changed his name to israel.
God keeps his promise, not to the children of Israel today or any day, or what they have done, He keeps it for them.
Thats is why God always says, i will remember by covenant with the fathers. It is for them. not for anyone else.
God recomfirmed his covenant through and to both Issac and Jacob, by who he changed his name to israel.
God keeps his promise, not to the children of Israel today or any day, or what they have done, He keeps it for them.
Thats is why God always says, i will remember by covenant with the fathers. It is for them. not for anyone else.
Indeed and agreed.
Merely pointing that even back then, not just by birth could one be consdierred part of Isaac, Esau, or Israel, or Judah, or the other tribes of Israel. Even then the Gentile could join with God. Ruth is a good example since she is a Moabite, which of course racially go back to Lot. But Ruth wasn't unsaved because of her faith in the God of Israel and because of the faith Naomi and Boaz had in God. thus she too become part of God's covenant.
Also that is good scripture too by Paul indeed!
Merely pointing that even back then, not just by birth could one be consdierred part of Isaac, Esau, or Israel, or Judah, or the other tribes of Israel. Even then the Gentile could join with God. Ruth is a good example since she is a Moabite, which of course racially go back to Lot. But Ruth wasn't unsaved because of her faith in the God of Israel and because of the faith Naomi and Boaz had in God. thus she too become part of God's covenant.
Also that is good scripture too by Paul indeed!
I agree with this quote, but then I think we go a different direction in its interpretation. The promise was through Isaac - but it was completed in Jesus. Jesus was the promise. Israel was restored in and through Jesus. Now everyone can become "God's children"/"the body of Christ"/ "Israel". The kingdom was taken away from Israel/Judah and given to those producing the fruit of it. But it was not taken away to the point that "actual Israel/descendants of Jacob" cannot as individuals become part of the "spiritual Israel"/"physical Church" and be saved. I believe that the breaking of the seven seals was the actual overcoming of the covenants by Jesus. He was perfect - so He was able to satisfy the requirements of God. We have been freed from the curse of death: John 11:25-26 [SUP]25 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, [SUP]26 [/SUP]and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Does this mean that we will never physically die? No, it means that we will not experience the second death.
Deuteronomy 30:15-20
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; [SUP]16 [/SUP]in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, [SUP]18 [/SUP]I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, [SUP]20 [/SUP]by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
Does this mean that we will never physically die? No, it means that we will not experience the second death.
Deuteronomy 30:15-20
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; [SUP]16 [/SUP]in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, [SUP]18 [/SUP]I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, [SUP]20 [/SUP]by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
Well, since I believe that the New Jerusalem is the Church and that we are in the New Heaven and New Earth - I would say that there are probably millions that are upset. They were upset when it happened and they are still upset today. I know that you do not see it this way. And yes, the physical ground is still there, but I think God is a lot less about the physical and a lot more about the spiritual. I do think, however, that there is often, if not always, a physical tie-in to show the occurrence of a spiritual event.
There are still land promises to be fulfilled and much of the Jewish remnant is yet to be grafted back in.
All believers today become the Church, His Body but no where does it say saved Gentiles become 'Israel'.
The Kingdom still remains promised to Israel. "taken away" and given to another nation' refers to another generation of Jews not to the Church. A similar thing happened to the Israelites in the desert. The land was given to the 2nd generation.
This is part of the conditional Mosaic Covenant and does not apply to the Church today. Christ did fulfill that covenant and nailed it to the cross thus tearing down the barrier and creating one New Man...the Church.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
(Eph 2:14-16)
All believers today become the Church, His Body but no where does it say saved Gentiles become 'Israel'.
The Kingdom still remains promised to Israel. "taken away" and given to another nation' refers to another generation of Jews not to the Church. A similar thing happened to the Israelites in the desert. The land was given to the 2nd generation.
This is part of the conditional Mosaic Covenant and does not apply to the Church today. Christ did fulfill that covenant and nailed it to the cross thus tearing down the barrier and creating one New Man...the Church.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
(Eph 2:14-16)
Point 1: Romans 9:6-8 [SUP]6 [/SUP]But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;[SUP]7 [/SUP]nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac (that would be referring to jesus) your descendants will be named.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Gentiles/Christians are the children of the promise! (this extends into your point 2)
Point 2: Romans 11:17-24 [SUP]17 [/SUP]But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [SUP]18 [/SUP]do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; [SUP]21 [/SUP]for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
and
Ephesians 3:1-13 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— [SUP]2 [/SUP]if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; [SUP]3 [/SUP]that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. [SUP]4 [/SUP]By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, [SUP]5 [/SUP]which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;[SUP]6 [/SUP]to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, [SUP]7 [/SUP]of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. [SUP]8 [/SUP]To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; [SUP]10 [/SUP]so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. [SUP]11 [/SUP]This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,[SUP]12 [/SUP]in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.
Point 3: Yes, I know that it was part of the Mosaic covenant - I quoted so that it would be read.
Gentiles/Christians are the children of the promise! (this extends into your point 2)
Point 2: Romans 11:17-24 [SUP]17 [/SUP]But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [SUP]18 [/SUP]do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; [SUP]21 [/SUP]for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
and
Ephesians 3:1-13 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— [SUP]2 [/SUP]if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; [SUP]3 [/SUP]that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. [SUP]4 [/SUP]By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, [SUP]5 [/SUP]which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;[SUP]6 [/SUP]to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, [SUP]7 [/SUP]of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. [SUP]8 [/SUP]To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; [SUP]10 [/SUP]so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. [SUP]11 [/SUP]This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,[SUP]12 [/SUP]in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.
Point 3: Yes, I know that it was part of the Mosaic covenant - I quoted so that it would be read.
E
Well, since I believe that the New Jerusalem is the Church and that we are in the New Heaven and New Earth - I would say that there are probably millions that are upset. They were upset when it happened and they are still upset today.
Yes, sometimes that does happen. But if we look up to the time of Christ, All the physical prophesies came true literally not only to the day, But to the event. If everything preChrist was fulfilled to the T literally. Why would we turn around and spiritualize all prophesies which come after Christ.
God did not change the reason and meaning of prophesy, It proves he is the one true God. Agents of satan can make allegorical prophesies and they seem to come true (since no one can prove they did not) God is proving he is God by making prophesy which NO ONE can deny came true. The only way this can happen is to have a literal fulfillment.
But if God is not going to keep his physical promises. There is no hope for any of us. Because he could just as easily take away his spiritual promises.
Then again, that is exactly what satan wants us to think. If he can dim our hope even a little, he has impeded our ability to work for Christ.