Did the Thief on the cross Go to heave that very day

iwant2serve · Apr 1, 2016

Luke 22:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I looked at this and wondered what Paradise was Jesus talking about. Most say Heaven as telling the man on the cross he would be there today. There are some who take the stand that Paradise is not heaven as we understand it but the New Earth.
In my research I found Paradise to mean "enclosure, garden, park." a park, a garden, from the Strong's Concordance. The Greek Lexicon has the same reference but also adds the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise. As well as the upper region of heaven.
Many have believers have said Abraham's bosom was the holding place until Jesus came and took them all to heaven but I have not found any scriptures that make that a clear statement to be used. The popular belief I have gotten was Jesus was telling the man he was going to Paradise that very day or at the time of the resurrection? I guess it would depend on how one would read that.

What are your thoughts?

dcontroversal · Apr 1, 2016

HE went to paradise (Abraham's Bosom) Luke 16 and then to Heaven 3 days later when Jesus led captivity out of Abraham's bosom to heaven...when he comes again he will bring all the dead in Christ with him....1st Thessalonians 4 and 1st Corinthians 15

phil112 · Apr 1, 2016

dcontroversal said:

Where does it say that? I don't seem to be able to recall where that passage is.

dcontroversal · Apr 1, 2016

phil112 said:

Phil...not everything is explicitly stated but implied by obvious context....

A. JESUS TOOK HIM TO PARADISE (Abraham's bosom) which is where all saved went before the death, burial and resurrection
B. JESUS ASCENDED AFTER HIS RESURRECTION AND LED captivity captive (Peter)
C. All saved go to heaven to await the return after the resurrection
D. CHRIST CANNOT BRING ALL THE DEAD IN CHRIST WITH HIM IF THEY ARE NOT WHERE HE IS AT.....

DEDUCTIVE REASONING, COMMON SENSE, IMPLIED SCRIPTURE AND THE OBVIOUS POINT TO THE ABOVE FACTS AND WHAT I SAID!

Willie-T · Apr 1, 2016

Personally, I think he had a lay-over in Toledo.

JosephsDreams · Apr 1, 2016

Some say that it depends on where the comma was, that different scribes may have interpreted differently.

Luke 22:43 - And Jesus said to him, truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise.
or
Luke 22:43 - And Jesus said to him, truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise.

PilgrimPassingThru · Apr 1, 2016

When the Hoy Ghost speaks of "To day" such as "To day if you hear his voice harden not your hearts" does not necessarily mean within a 24 hour day,

Ahwatukee · Apr 2, 2016

JosephsDreams said:

Hello JosephsDreams & Iwantoserve,

If I might add, the only reason that the belief that the comma is in the wrong place came about by those who believe in soul sleep, i.e. at the time of death the body, soul and spirit are in the grave and not conscious. By Jesus saying "Today you will be with me in paradise," it proves that the spirit's/soul's of those who have died are conscious and aware after death. It is for this same reason that people call the event of Lazarus and the rich man a parable and that because it demonstrates that after these two men had died, their souls/spirits were conscious and aware, the rich man being in torment in flame in Hades/Sheol and Lazarus in a place of paradise/comfort which was across from Hades and separated by a great chasm.

Also, regarding the comma being in the wrong place, not even one of the major translations has the comma after the word "today." Just as Dcontrovertial said, it is a matter of deduction by looking at all of the facts:

1. The prophecy regarding Christ says, "you will not abandon me to Sheol, you will not allow your Holy One to decay." Sheol is synonymous with the Greek "Hades" which Strong's defines as "the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed spirits of the (deceased); Hades. Therefore, the prophecy is stating that God would not abandon Christ to that "unseen place" where at that time the spirits of all of the OT saints went to e.g. Abraham and Lazarus. Those who were not of God went to the other side in torment in flame such as the rich man.

2. Taking into consideration that Jesus said, "Today you will be with me in paradise" and that when he resurrected, he told Mary not to hold on to him because he had not yet ascended to his Father (John 20:17). This begs the question then that since Jesus said that he had not yet ascended to his Father, then what place of paradise did he go to, since it obviously couldn't have been in heaven?

3. Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”[SUP] [/SUP](In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?[SUP][/SUP]

These are just some of the scriptures that demonstrate that the spirit of Jesus was in the heart of the earth after the death of his body along with the thief of whom he said, "today you will be with me in paradise."

PilgrimPassingThru · Apr 2, 2016

And after the fact you didnt have to die to be taken there

2 Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell:God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2 Cr 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

2 Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise , and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Cr 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

Zmouth · Apr 2, 2016

JosephsDreams said:

Instead of the comma, what if the names of the two thieves were To and day? , hence in Luke 23:39-43

Day had said, "If thou be Christ, save thyself and us."
To answering rebuked him saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And To said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

See day, by faith, put Christ first when he said "if you be the Christ, save yourself then us."

But seriously, in Matt 12:40 it is written "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

So how could being in the heart of the earth be considered paradise? [see Ps 139:8]

crossnote · Apr 2, 2016

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(2Co 5:8)

Same with the thief, who died AFTER Jesus died.

PS, I just reread the OP, and no, he did not go to 'heave'.

abcdef · Apr 2, 2016

I like Matt 27:52-53, "And the graves were opened;and many bodies of the saints arose,and came out of the graves after His resurrection,and went unto the holy city, and appeared to many."
As we search the Bible we try our best to understand God and the spirit world. We trust Him, believe him in faith. He has told us what we really need to know about His love and salvation. There may be a few details He didn't tell us about yet, but don't let the parameters of this world restrict your thoughts about Jesus and the wonderful city He has prepared for us.

TMS · Apr 2, 2016

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus didn't go to heaven that day (Friday) when He and the thief died.

Luke 22:43 - And Jesus said to him, truly I say to you today you shall be with me in paradise.
Put the comma where you want but i know that Jesus and the thief were not in paradise that day.

crossnote · Apr 2, 2016

TMS said:

Interesting, that is the position of the Jehovah Witnessess.

I can juggle Scriptures and say...

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
(Luk 23:46)

PilgrimPassingThru · Apr 2, 2016

crossnote said:

It appears similar here in Stephen (receive my spirit) "forgive them" (then falls asleep)

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.
And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

But they buried stephen, his body was not raised up incorruptible as our Lord, who after that point ascended on high.

At this point after he was crucified he had not yet ascended

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not;
for I AM NOT YET ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

What he would do when he ascended (per the Psalm)

Psalm 68:18 THOU HAST ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive:
THOU HAST RECEIVED gifts FOR men; yea, FOR the rebellious also,
that the LORD God might dwell among them.

What he presently did

Acts 2:33 Therefore BEING BY the right hand of God exalted,
and HAVING RECEIVED OF the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost,
HE hath shed forth this, which ye NOW see and hear.

How the "received gifts FOR" is now the "gave gifts UNTO"

Ephes 4:8 Wherefore he saith, WHEN HE ascended up on high,
HE led captivity captive, AND GAVE gifts unto men.

Which were received of the Father first as Psalm 68:18 and Acts 2:33 agree in Jesus Christ here also

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come,
whom I will send unto you FROM the Father, even the Spirit of truth,
which proceedeth FROM the Father, he shall testify of me:

And again,

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above,
and cometh DOWN FROM the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness,
neither shadow of turning.

Then kept going

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter,
because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Prov 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists?
who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth?
what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Ephes 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephes 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Follows an order there.

seed_time_harvest · Apr 2, 2016

crossnote said:

LOL

........

coby · Apr 2, 2016

Lord remember me!
Today you will be with Me in paradise.
Thief: Do You mean that with a comma?

coby · Apr 2, 2016

TMS said:

Paradise was in the earth then. He preached to the spirits in prison. That was there too. Parable of Lazarus. Samuel came up out of the earth.

Miri · Apr 2, 2016

Yes I think he probably was very sick and heaved a lot while being
crucified.

jb · Apr 2, 2016

iwant2serve said:

Have a look Here

Did the Thief on the cross Go to heave that very day

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