Did the Thief on the cross Go to heave that very day
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We'll never know until we get to heaven, so I won't make this a doctrine to divide. But, yeah, I'm of the camp that thinks it's the place to stay for believers until Judgement Day. Even there, I'm not very good at being single-minded. I'm coming to the conclusion that God's outside of time and space -- the creator of both -- so Judgement "Day" doesn't have to be one specific 24 hour period. If next life has no time or space, Judgement Day may be going on now.
One of those fun things to ponder, but nothing to get bent out of shape about if we're wrong. We simply don't know until we get there.
One of those fun things to ponder, but nothing to get bent out of shape about if we're wrong. We simply don't know until we get there.
Hi PilgrimPassingThru,
There is a difference between what Paul experienced by being caught up to heaven, where he received visions and revelations, where the thief that was crucified with Christ and died that same day. Paul's being caught up was temporary, whereas the thief's life was over and his spirit descended to Sheol/Hades with the Lord. Now according to Phil.1:23 and 2 Cor.5:6-9, once a believer dies, their spirit/soul departs from the body and immediately goes to be in the presence of the Lord. In opposition, those who die without Christ, their spirits/souls depart and go to Hades, i.e. the same place where the rich man went, where they will remain until the great white throne judgment.
There is a difference between what Paul experienced by being caught up to heaven, where he received visions and revelations, where the thief that was crucified with Christ and died that same day. Paul's being caught up was temporary, whereas the thief's life was over and his spirit descended to Sheol/Hades with the Lord. Now according to Phil.1:23 and 2 Cor.5:6-9, once a believer dies, their spirit/soul departs from the body and immediately goes to be in the presence of the Lord. In opposition, those who die without Christ, their spirits/souls depart and go to Hades, i.e. the same place where the rich man went, where they will remain until the great white throne judgment.
Just to that, Paul isnt speaking of John? Sounds like John
2 Cr12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;
2 Cr12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words,which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 10:3 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write:
and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not .
Another topic, but I he said he knew a man but I didnt see where he is speaking of himself.
When you look at 2 Cor. 12 in context with the previous verses in 2 Cor 11 - we can see that Paul was talking about himself. John's book of revelation was written years after 2 Cor 12 was written.
Paul was just simply saying that he didn't know if just his spirit went to the 3rd heaven or if his body went there too. He couldn't tell the difference. Paul was and was not boasting when you see it in context which is why he said..I knew a man....
2 Corinthians was written around 55AD and so 14 years before that would be around 41AD. John wrote Revelation either around 90AD or there is a lot of proof for it also being in 65-66AD. Either way - it was not in the time of Paul writing the below scripture in order to know about John's revelation as John was on the Isle of Patmos when he had his experience.
2 Corinthians 12:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
[SUP]4 [/SUP] was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.
When you look in context at 2 Corinthians 11:18-33 we can see that Paul was talking about his credentials as a minister of the gospel. So, when we read the above scripture in line with 2 Cor. 12 - we can see a clearer view of things.
Paul was just simply saying that he didn't know if just his spirit went to the 3rd heaven or if his body went there too. He couldn't tell the difference. Paul was and was not boasting when you see it in context which is why he said..I knew a man....
2 Corinthians was written around 55AD and so 14 years before that would be around 41AD. John wrote Revelation either around 90AD or there is a lot of proof for it also being in 65-66AD. Either way - it was not in the time of Paul writing the below scripture in order to know about John's revelation as John was on the Isle of Patmos when he had his experience.
2 Corinthians 12:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
[SUP]4 [/SUP] was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.
When you look in context at 2 Corinthians 11:18-33 we can see that Paul was talking about his credentials as a minister of the gospel. So, when we read the above scripture in line with 2 Cor. 12 - we can see a clearer view of things.
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Depends where the comma should be. There are no commas in greek manuscripts and the first copies were written in majuscules (only capital letters).
Something like: AMENISAYTOYOUTODAYYOUWILLBEWITHMEINPARADISE.
So, it could be: Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.
Or: Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.
There is no way to know it, so you decide.
Something like: AMENISAYTOYOUTODAYYOUWILLBEWITHMEINPARADISE.
So, it could be: Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.
Or: Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.
There is no way to know it, so you decide.
You could just lose the comma altogether and just use Jesus on the cross in the whole scheme of him being the same "Yesterday, To day, and for ever" place and chose out the "To day" as more of a prophetic word by the Holy Ghost, so you could kill both birds with "one stone" (no pun intended).
I think there is a similar argument in the first man on what day he died when it speaks of "in the day" he ate from that tree (even as Christ was crucified on a tree also speaking of a day) but then how to work out in the which was that was meant given Adam lived 930 years and then the whole, a day with the Lord is as a thousand years etc etc.
Seeing the cross is such an event where a particular order of things must fit in that given of the Holy Ghost in respects to the "To day" opens it up a little to allow for all of them to be true in the same.
I think there is a similar argument in the first man on what day he died when it speaks of "in the day" he ate from that tree (even as Christ was crucified on a tree also speaking of a day) but then how to work out in the which was that was meant given Adam lived 930 years and then the whole, a day with the Lord is as a thousand years etc etc.
Seeing the cross is such an event where a particular order of things must fit in that given of the Holy Ghost in respects to the "To day" opens it up a little to allow for all of them to be true in the same.
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It could be Wednesday.
On what day was Jesus crucified?
On what day was Jesus crucified?
