Did the Thief on the cross Go to heave that very day

[coby]

Depends where the comma should be. There are no commas in greek manuscripts and the first copies were written in majuscules (only capital letters).
Something like: AMENISAYTOYOUTODAYYOUWILLBEWITHMEINPARADISE.

So, it could be: Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.
Or: Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.

There is no way to know it, so you decide.

Can't remember He said to others: I say to you today
He couldn't say it tomorrow.
He always said to people: verily verily I say unto you.

John 5

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.*25*Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

He preached to the spirits in prison. I suppose He didn't take him with Him there, so He also must have gone to Abraham's bosom, paradise.


If not, where else could he go to?

 

[trofimus]

Agreed, but don't you think the first example is redundant? Of course it is 'today' when Jesus told the thief he would be with Him in paradise. The more natural reading is simply "Today, you will be with Me...", rather than "Today, I am telling you, you will be with Me..."

I agree, I also think it makes more sense this way. But its only our perspective, we dont know for sure (so its not very wise to base something important on it)

 

[trofimus]

Can't remember He said to others: I say to you today
He couldn't say it tomorrow.
He always said to people: verily verily I say unto you.

John 5

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.*25*Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

He preached to the spirits in prison. I suppose He didn't take him with Him there, so He also must have gone to Abraham's bosom, paradise.


If not, where else could he go to?

I am not opposing you, I only said that we cant know for sure how this specific sentence was meant, even though your position is very probable.

 

[iwant2serve]

Hello JosephsDreams & Iwantoserve,

If I might add, the only reason that the belief that the comma is in the wrong place came about by those who believe in soul sleep, i.e. at the time of death the body, soul and spirit are in the grave and not conscious. By Jesus saying "Today you will be with me in paradise," it proves that the spirit's/soul's of those who have died are conscious and aware after death. It is for this same reason that people call the event of Lazarus and the rich man a parable and that because it demonstrates that after these two men had died, their souls/spirits were conscious and aware, the rich man being in torment in flame in Hades/Sheol and Lazarus in a place of paradise/comfort which was across from Hades and separated by a great chasm.

Also, regarding the comma being in the wrong place, not even one of the major translations has the comma after the word "today." Just as Dcontrovertial said, it is a matter of deduction by looking at all of the facts:

1. The prophecy regarding Christ says, "you will not abandon me to Sheol, you will not allow your Holy One to decay." Sheol is synonymous with the Greek "Hades" which Strong's defines as "the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed spirits of the (deceased); Hades. Therefore, the prophecy is stating that God would not abandon Christ to that "unseen place" where at that time the spirits of all of the OT saints went to e.g. Abraham and Lazarus. Those who were not of God went to the other side in torment in flame such as the rich man.

2. Taking into consideration that Jesus said, "Today you will be with me in paradise" and that when he resurrected, he told Mary not to hold on to him because he had not yet ascended to his Father (John 20:17). This begs the question then that since Jesus said that he had not yet ascended to his Father, then what place of paradise did he go to, since it obviously couldn't have been in heaven?

3. Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?

These are just some of the scriptures that demonstrate that the spirit of Jesus was in the heart of the earth after the death of his body along with the thief of whom he said, "today you will be with me in paradise."

Can you tell me what a human spirit is? On the day man was created he was a soul with no life, then God breathe into him and he became a living soul. What happens when humans dies? What spirit goes back to God?

 

[blue_ladybug]

Pretty sure he did, since Jesus said "TODAY you will be with me in paradise".

 

[Depleted]

It happens how it happens. Is speculation on one version as opposed to another.... when we really don't know anyway, and OUR particular individual notions make no difference... going to change how it will REALLY happen?

Does this mean you have no idea how many angels do dance on the head of a pin? Does this mean you don't know how Adam and Eve spent their time in the garden before the fall? Does this mean you don't know what life would have been like without the fall?

Really? What do you think happened?

 

[trofimus]

Pretty sure he did, since Jesus said "TODAY you will be with me in paradise".

Read my post about commas in manuscripts, please.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Read my post about commas in manuscripts, please.

I'm NOT reading back 3 pages to find it. Can you post it, please?

 

[John146]

As some have already said, Jesus did not ascend to heaven until the third day, Scripture is clear. First, He descended into the lower parts of the earth to preach to the spirits in prison, then He preached the gospel to those in Abraham's bosom which was paradise. On the third day, He translated paradise to heaven setting the captives free. Today, paradise is located in the third heaven.

The Lord's spirit (not Spirit) went back to God the Father, His body was in the tomb, and His soul was in the lower parts of the earth where hell is located.

 

[Complete_In_Him]

He preached to the spirits in prison. I suppose He didn't take him with Him there

Maybe Jesus didn't "go" to the compartment or level to preach to the spirits in prison, maybe he simply spoke from paradise, like Lazarus and Abraham communicated. Or, what is this "prison" and its captives... what was Jesus preaching to them?

"[SUP]18 [/SUP]The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised"

And to add to the OP topic, today simply means "this day", because there is no time measuring after death, but in time there most certainly is a day and day means day, "this day have I begotten thee"

There are some good posts here. Also, we should refrain from commingling certain doctrines about paradise.

 

[trofimus]

I'm NOT reading back 3 pages to find it. Can you post it, please?

Here it is:

Depends where the comma should be. There are no commas in greek manuscripts and the first copies were written in majuscules (only capital letters).
Something like: AMENISAYTOYOUTODAYYOUWILLBEWITHMEINPARADISE.

So, it could be: Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.
Or: Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.

There is no way to know it, so you decide.

 

[Complete_In_Him]

trofimus,

When should the words be capitalized? such as To day in Luke 23:43 kjv... it's not about us deciding, it is about us understanding the doctrine of God. Jesus is making a statement, right?

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto him, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the Lord, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

[SUP]51 [/SUP]And it was told Solomon, saying, Behold, Adonijah feareth king Solomon: for, lo, he hath caught hold on the horns of the altar, saying, Let king Solomon swear unto me to day that he will not slay his servant with the sword.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

trofimus,

When should the words be capitalized? such as To day in Luke 23:43 kjv... it's not about us deciding, it is about us understanding the doctrine of God. Jesus is making a statement, right?

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto him, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the Lord, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

[SUP]51 [/SUP]And it was told Solomon, saying, Behold, Adonijah feareth king Solomon: for, lo, he hath caught hold on the horns of the altar, saying, Let king Solomon swear unto me to day that he will not slay his servant with the sword.

There are many more, even in the NT used differently and without capital lettering also

Here is just a clip of a few but in it captures them being used interchangable in it

 

[Complete_In_Him]

Nice. There is much to be considered about grammar and punctuation in English, even though it is not part of the manuscript texts. Not to mention how this necessary practice in our language, writing and text communication is devolving with a quickness. So, do you agree that, "Verily I say unto thee," and "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" are two distinct statements worthy of capitalization, as rendered in some versions? Also the separation of the word to day, making better sense to specify in time "this day", scripturally speaking?

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Nice. There is much to be considered about grammar and punctuation in English, even though it is not part of the manuscript texts. Not to mention how this necessary practice in our language, writing and text communication is devolving with a quickness. So, do you agree that, "Verily I say unto thee," and "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" are two distinct statements worthy of capitalization, as rendered in some versions? Also the separation of the word to day, making better sense to specify in time "this day", scripturally speaking?

Wrong person, the grammar and spelling folks get on my nerve, I just drop the comma and make both issues obsolete.

 

[trofimus]

trofimus,

When should the words be capitalized? such as To day in Luke 23:43 kjv... it's not about us deciding, it is about us understanding the doctrine of God. Jesus is making a statement, right?

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto him, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the Lord, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

[SUP]51 [/SUP]And it was told Solomon, saying, Behold, Adonijah feareth king Solomon: for, lo, he hath caught hold on the horns of the altar, saying, Let king Solomon swear unto me to day that he will not slay his servant with the sword.

I dont understand your question and why KJV matters.
This is what I am talking about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ls#/media/File:Codex_Alexandrinus_J_1,1-7.PNG

 

[Depleted]

Friday ?. how you get 3 days and 3 nights, to sunday morning?

Jewish days start at sundown.

Jesus died at 3 PM -- aka, before sundown. Thursday. Day one.
Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown. Day two.
Saturday sundown to the next morning. Day three.

(At least, that's what stuck in my brain after the nuns taught us this stuff in grade school. No idea if that math is fuzzy or not.)

 

[Depleted]

Wrong person, the grammar and spelling folks get on my nerve, I just drop the comma and make both issues obsolete.

(Huddling with Pilgrim. Hopefully, the grammar and spelling folks, don't notice us. And to think, I have the degree in Communications. What were they thinking, when they gave it to me. Almost 40 years later, and I STILL don't know the difference between a gerund, and participle phrase. I also have commatitis, an ever-increasing desire, to stick a comma, anywhere that seems, just seems, like a good place, to stick a comma!)

 

[Depleted]

I dont understand your question and why KJV matters.
This is what I am talking about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ls#/media/File:Codex_Alexandrinus_J_1,1-7.PNG

I can give you a heads-up on why kjv matters in this instance, since I use the tactic myself. Because if you read it in any other version, the sentence changes enough to deflate the point.

And that's not to suggest Complete is a KJVist. I'm just saying I know that I prefer the KJ version to prove my point about salvation is wrought by God alone, because no other version uses that way-cool-ought-not-to-be-obsolete word "wrought." And my understanding of the word wrought just doesn't cut it when posting the modern version and it's only "work." "Wrought" just sounds more powerful than work. (Example unrelated to current topic, but it is an insider's tip of why the vast majority of us get our proof text from different versions of the Bible. Because one version makes it sound exactly how we're hearing it in our head. Sometimes we're right. Sometimes we forget God is righter. And sometimes the two are the same thing -- it's right because that's how God meant it to be.)

 

[Complete_In_Him]

Wrong person, the grammar and spelling folks get on my nerve, I just drop the comma and make both issues obsolete.

Oh, that's fine, but when it comes to "the sense" and the instruction... the doctrine, correction, reproof... flows to where?