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That tree has only good spiritual branches and good spiritual fruit now.
The faithless branches have been pruned off.
That tree is the body of Christ (those in Christ, who is the trunk in which the branches abide),
God's one and only people, past and present, who believe in the Promise (Jesus Christ), and
whose roots are the holy Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The faithless branches have been pruned off.
That tree is the body of Christ (those in Christ, who is the trunk in which the branches abide),
God's one and only people, past and present, who believe in the Promise (Jesus Christ), and
whose roots are the holy Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
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What a wonderful thing to discuss! Rom. 11 is a favorite of mine. A bit off topic, maybe better to make a short study in a new thread? It's a bit frightening to lots of Christians who stand on OSAS.
My short reply is yes, you are right. The wild olive is missing many branches, Gentile believers taking many grafting spots that Israel lost, for now. Neither Jew nor Gentile has bragging rights.
A reason this deserves much attention is even when faithless Jesus has patience.
John 20:27 (KJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP] Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
He didn't prune Thomas out.
Grafting fruit trees and vines was forme a very satisfying experience, having muscadine vines, figs, apples, peaches, and pears. I learned to have patience with a branch showing problems. I removed damaged parts that couldn't be fixed with chemicals, but yet there was reason to have some faith in them. By only pruning what's a threat to other branches or vines/trees nearby, new twigs replaced the bad naturally with time, the branch once again bearing fruit. Then it was time to thin the weak ones out. So the idea is to go by fruit bearing rather than a be too hard on a short term problem, like Thomas had. The act of natural pruning and grafting affords valuable understanding of the spiritual kind.
So what to do with Rom 11 and the prospect of Gentile believers grafted in being possibly pruned back off? Want to go there? In a new thread? Or take it to the current OSAS thread if it isn't already there. I haven't had much time to go there like I want to.
My short reply is yes, you are right. The wild olive is missing many branches, Gentile believers taking many grafting spots that Israel lost, for now. Neither Jew nor Gentile has bragging rights.
A reason this deserves much attention is even when faithless Jesus has patience.
John 20:27 (KJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP] Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
He didn't prune Thomas out.
Grafting fruit trees and vines was forme a very satisfying experience, having muscadine vines, figs, apples, peaches, and pears. I learned to have patience with a branch showing problems. I removed damaged parts that couldn't be fixed with chemicals, but yet there was reason to have some faith in them. By only pruning what's a threat to other branches or vines/trees nearby, new twigs replaced the bad naturally with time, the branch once again bearing fruit. Then it was time to thin the weak ones out. So the idea is to go by fruit bearing rather than a be too hard on a short term problem, like Thomas had. The act of natural pruning and grafting affords valuable understanding of the spiritual kind.
So what to do with Rom 11 and the prospect of Gentile believers grafted in being possibly pruned back off? Want to go there? In a new thread? Or take it to the current OSAS thread if it isn't already there. I haven't had much time to go there like I want to.
But Thomas was not "faithless," he did not lose faith in Jesus, he simply doubted the others' testimony of having seen him.
Not the same thing.
Yes, not all faith is true faith, not all who profess faith actually possess true faith.
Those Gentiles in the professing-faith church who do not actually posses faith (Mt 7:21-23),
in this case shown by their lording it over others, will be cut off.
Not the same thing.
Yes, not all faith is true faith, not all who profess faith actually possess true faith.
Those Gentiles in the professing-faith church who do not actually posses faith (Mt 7:21-23),
in this case shown by their lording it over others, will be cut off.
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Yeremyah 9:23-25, "This is what Yahweh says: Let not the wise glory in their wisdom, let not the mighty glory in their power, let not the rich glory in their riches; But let those who glory, glorify in this--that he understands and knows Me, that I am Yahweh Who exercises lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth; for in this I delight, says Yahweh. Behold, the days come, says Yahweh: that I will punish all those who are circumcised only physically, in their foreskins."
It is in the grammatical construction of Heb 8:13. . .where the covenant is not "becoming" obsolete.
"he has made the first one obsolete"
Because it "is obsolete," it "will soon disappear". . .at the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple
and the sacrifices.
The grammatical construction of Heb 8:13 is that the Mosaic covenant is obsolete now.
And in addition, because Israel did not keep the Mosaic covenant (Jer 11:2-14),
God promised a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34), not like the Mosaic covenant (Jer 31:32).
God is not saying in Jer 31:31-34 that both covenants will be in force at the same time.
God is saying that the Mosaic covenant to be their God was conditioned on obedience
to the Mosiac law, which they flagrantly disobeyed (Jer 11:2-14) and were not able
to keep (Gal 3:10-12; Ro 3:10), therefore, he will give them a new covenant that is not
conditioned on their ability to keep it, but on God's operation of his Spirit within them (Jer 31:31-34).
Your notion of both covenants being in force now at the same time makes no Biblical sense.
So who has been under the Mosaic covenant, rather than the new covenant, for the last 2,000 years?
Has a covenant been in force for the last 2,000 years which includes no one?
Or is everyone now under two covenants?
The Mosaic covenant is now obsolete.
"he has made the first one obsolete"
Because it "is obsolete," it "will soon disappear". . .at the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple
and the sacrifices.
The grammatical construction of Heb 8:13 is that the Mosaic covenant is obsolete now.
And in addition, because Israel did not keep the Mosaic covenant (Jer 11:2-14),
God promised a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34), not like the Mosaic covenant (Jer 31:32).
God is not saying in Jer 31:31-34 that both covenants will be in force at the same time.
God is saying that the Mosaic covenant to be their God was conditioned on obedience
to the Mosiac law, which they flagrantly disobeyed (Jer 11:2-14) and were not able
to keep (Gal 3:10-12; Ro 3:10), therefore, he will give them a new covenant that is not
conditioned on their ability to keep it, but on God's operation of his Spirit within them (Jer 31:31-34).
Your notion of both covenants being in force now at the same time makes no Biblical sense.
So who has been under the Mosaic covenant, rather than the new covenant, for the last 2,000 years?
Has a covenant been in force for the last 2,000 years which includes no one?
Or is everyone now under two covenants?
The Mosaic covenant is now obsolete.
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The covenant was not accepted by Israel until Ex 9:8,
and not ratified by the God and the people until Ex 24:7, 9-11.
NB: The covenant being made obsolete as shown in post #254 (post=1851609]here[/post],
the regulations on which it was based are also obsolete,
and nothing is ceremonially unclean anymore; i.e., against the law.
and not ratified by the God and the people until Ex 24:7, 9-11.
NB: The covenant being made obsolete as shown in post #254 (post=1851609]here[/post],
the regulations on which it was based are also obsolete,
and nothing is ceremonially unclean anymore; i.e., against the law.
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