Dispensational Mythstakes?

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Mar 14, 2011
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#41
Gentiles used to be outside of the commonwealth of Israel, yet now in Christ they are in the commonwealth of Israel
Eph 2:12
There are no two separate peoples, lets not cut up scriptures.

Even in the old testament we had converts join the nation of Israel.

ISRAEL WAS NEVER ABOUT BLOODLINE alone, put PROMISE.
Certainly God was more pleased with Ruth than a wicked israelite worshiping foreign gods????
No that is not true, Israel was a nation given specific promises by God.. Yes many genitles converted and did what needed to be done so they could share in those promises. Yet many gentiles did not, yet were just as saved as the jews and gentiles who lived in Israel..

You can not mix the promises given to a nation with promises given to ALL nations.. through abraham.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#42

Jesus died for them also.. Not just you and I.

if they are not a member of the body, they are not saved.

They believed in Gods provision, They just did not know what it would be.. The effects are the same.
Yes, the end result may be the same, but the body of Christ was not an "entity" before the resurrection. They were in Abraham's bosom being kept safe from hell fire.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#43
Yes, the end result may be the same, but the body of Christ was not an "entity" before the resurrection. They were in Abraham's bosom being kept safe from hell fire.
they were still a part of the body, Doing Gods work while here on earth. Just like people are today.. (only we have it easier with the HS)

When you die, You will join them in paradise awaiting your savior also. You are all part of the same body, the same group.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#44
they were still a part of the body, Doing Gods work while here on earth. Just like people are today.. (only we have it easier with the HS)

When you die, You will join them in paradise awaiting your savior also. You are all part of the same body, the same group.
If I die, I will be present with the Lord. Paradise has been translated to the third heaven.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#45
If I die, I will be present with the Lord. Paradise has been translated to the third heaven.
Yes, And Abraham, Moses, Daniel, Noah, Adam and Eve, And all the saints of the OT will be right there with you.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#46
No that is not true, Israel was a nation given specific promises by God.. Yes many genitles converted and did what needed to be done so they could share in those promises. Yet many gentiles did not, yet were just as saved as the jews and gentiles who lived in Israel..

You can not mix the promises given to a nation with promises given to ALL nations.. through abraham.
Christ came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel in accord with the secondary promises, and when they had spurned Him, He turned to the Gentiles (Mark 7.24-8.10), in accordance with the Primary promises to Abraham which were to all nations. The secondary promises had to be fulfilled that Messiah of all nations should come. But as He said, 'Other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also must I bring'.

Jesus had made clear that this was His final purpose from the beginning, when He spoke of many from the east and the west coming to Abraham while the Jews themselves were cast out.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#47
Christ came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel in accord with the secondary promises, and when they had spurned Him, He turned to the Gentiles (Mark 7.24-8.10), in accordance with the Primary promises to Abraham which were to all nations. The secondary promises had to be fulfilled that Messiah of all nations should come. But as He said, 'Other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also must I bring'.

Jesus had made clear that this was His final purpose from the beginning, when He spoke of many from the east and the west coming to Abraham while the Jews themselves were cast out.

yet that was not a mystery, Because ot prophets fortold a people not his would be called his own.

But we are talking about specific promises. Not salvation..
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#48
Yes, And Abraham, Moses, Daniel, Noah, Adam and Eve, And all the saints of the OT will be right there with you.
Along with all the Gentiles who came to God in OT days such as certain men of Nineveh, Naaman, and many others.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#49

yet that was not a mystery, Because ot prophets fortold a people not his would be called his own.

But we are talking about specific promises. Not salvation..
the mystery was the large number that would finally come and that they would be a witness to principalities in high places of God's final purposes.

The specific promises you speak of were all fulfilled prior to Christ's coming (they were secondary promises preparatory to the Messiah), apart from those directed at the New Israel, the church of Jesus Christ..
 
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Mar 14, 2011
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#50
the mystery was the large number that would finally come and that they would be a witness to principalities in high places of God's final purposes.

The specific promises you speak of were all fulfilled prior to Christ's coming (they were secondary promises preparatory to the Messiah), apart from those directed at the New Israel, the church of Jesus Christ..
The mystery was the cross itself. and the change which would occur because of the cross.. (the NT church)

The specific promises I speak of were said to be eternal promises.. Thus they are still in effect.

Of course, whether you agree or not, Believe it is true or not. Does not matter, What matters is what God said,

He said plainly, I give this TO YOU AND YOUR DESCENDANTS FOREVER.

forever did not end at the cross.. Nor was eternal salvation part of the "This" that he gave them.

 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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#52
If I die, I will be present with the Lord. Paradise has been translated to the third heaven.
Do you have a scripture to confirm this?

I would be interested.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#53
No that is not true, Israel was a nation given specific promises by God.. Yes many genitles converted and did what needed to be done so they could share in those promises. Yet many gentiles did not, yet were just as saved as the jews and gentiles who lived in Israel..

You can not mix the promises given to a nation with promises given to ALL nations.. through abraham.
Of course he can, because that is precisely what the new testament tells us:

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Nations - Greek ethnos, which means all nations not just the tribes of Israel.

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Christians receive all the promises made to Abraham as his children.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#54
Of course he can, because that is precisely what the new testament tells us:

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Nations - Greek ethnos, which means all nations not just the tribes of Israel.

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Christians receive all the promises made to Abraham as his children.
sorry bud, But non of what you posted has anything to do with what God promised to a nation.

It has everything to do with what God promised ABRAHAM, "in you shall ALL THE NATIONS of the world be blessed"

Promised to ALL nations, and promises made to ONE NATION are not interchangeable, nor are they the same.

One is salvic, and given to ALL NATIONS (Including the nation of Isreal)

One is non salvic, and is given to a specific nation..

I recomend people stop trying to mix salvic promise made to the whole earth, verses national promises made to one child and his descendants..
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#55
sorry bud, But non of what you posted has anything to do with what God promised to a nation.
What promises were made to the nation which were not made to Abraham?

It has everything to do with what God promised ABRAHAM, "in you shall ALL THE NATIONS of the world be blessed"

Promised to ALL nations, and promises made to ONE NATION are not interchangeable, nor are they the same.

One is salvic, and given to ALL NATIONS (Including the nation of Isreal)

One is non salvic, and is given to a specific nation..

I recomend people stop trying to mix salvic promise made to the whole earth, verses national promises made to one child and his descendants..
I recommend you start backing up your opinions with scripture.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#56
What promises were made to the nation which were not made to Abraham?


I said nation, Not abraham..

Can we stick on topic?

there is a huge difference between NATION and NATIONS.. (more than just the "S" at the end)



I recommend you start backing up your opinions with scripture.
lol.. Again?


Ok thats easy.

Gen 12:
12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will make you a great nation

I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And.”in you all the FAMILES (nations) of the earth shall be blessed

notice two distinct things,

I will make you a great nation


All the families of the earth (all the different nations) will be blessed.


1 is salvic, 1 is temporal.

Gen 15:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,
“To your [SUP][t][/SUP]descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:


[SUP]19 [/SUP]the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite [SUP]20 [/SUP]and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim [SUP]21 [/SUP]and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite.”

This promise was not made to all NATIONS, or All the FAMILIES of the world. But to one NATION, This is god reaffirming the promise, In you I will make a great nation. It has nothign to do with the eternal salvation of one person who ever walked the earth. What it does is spell out the boundaries of and that the NATION (singular) will be given.

Gen 17:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you,
And you will be the father of a multitude of nations.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“No longer shall your name be called [SUP][d][/SUP]Abram,
But your name shall be [SUP][e][/SUP]Abraham;
For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you.


Again, God is reaffirming the covenant, In you shall all the nations (plural) be blessed. It is through this seed, that christ will come, and the church will expand to all the world.


[SUP]7 [/SUP]I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your [SUP][f][/SUP]descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your [SUP][g][/SUP]descendants after you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]I will give to you and to your [SUP][h][/SUP]descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Again, Different, Not all nations, But one nations, Not all descendants, But a particular group of descendants. Not salvation, but land, How long? Eternal Forever.

again, this part establishes the length of the covenant between God and a particular NATION God promises to Abraham (FOREVER)

there you have it. Biblical proof God made two parts of a covenant between God and abraham.

one part dealt with ALL nations (families of the earth) and eternal salvation

the other part dealt with one nation, who God would make through abraham, which has nothign to do with salvation, but to a particular nation here on earth.


I belong to the ALL NATIONS part.. I have no part in the ONE NATION part.. it was never promised to me,








 
Mar 14, 2011
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#57
Locutus;3043206[COLOR=#000080 said:
][/COLOR]
I recommend you start backing up your opinions with scripture.

By the way I have backed my thinking on covenant theology many times in the past.. Maybe you should be less RUDE and thinking I have never done such a thing, That is one of the things which turns me off from these conversations, is the rudeness
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#58

By the way I have backed my thinking on covenant theology many times in the past.. Maybe you should be less RUDE and thinking I have never done such a thing, That is one of the things which turns me off from these conversations, is the rudeness
I recomend people stop trying to mix salvic promise made to the whole earth, verses national promises made to one child and his descendants..
But this comment is not rude eh?

Maybe you should be a bit less thin skinned.

I asked you to back up your opinions in this thread, not what you "backed up" in the past, to which I'm not privy to.

I'll deal with the errors in your post #56 shortly..meanwhile you can try some of this:

 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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#59
Hello Sokenpassage,

The church is a new entity that was initiated by the Lord, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile. If the church would have existed prior to the Lord's appearing in the flesh, then he would not have said, "I will [build] my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. The word "build" in the verse above is in the future tense, meaning that it had not previously existed.
Hi,

Well, you would have to assume then that people were unsaved prior to the coming of Christ. The Church is the collective body of believers, which has existed throughout history. To 'build' may not refer to 'to exist,' but may refer to an 'official establishing' if it's being built on Christ. The Covenant of Grace was only in promised form in the Old Testament, and among men such as Abraham partook in the salvific blessings in the New Covenant, yet that New Covenant had not yet been established. The spiritual seed of Abraham did not yet become officially established until the arrival of that Mediator of that official covenant.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#60
But this comment is not rude eh?

Maybe you should be a bit less thin skinned.

I asked you to back up your opinions in this thread, not what you "backed up" in the past, to which I'm not privy to.

I'll deal with the errors in your post #56 shortly..meanwhile you can try some of this:


lol.. Thanks, Whatever..

It was not that you asked me to back up my thoughts, It was how you said it,, Can;t take criticism, you should not give it out..

And what I just gave was my view of what the difference was.. If that offends you, Maybe your the one who needs to apply some of this cream?

as for dealing with what I said. Be very careful in what you say.. Read what I said, ever word. Do not make the same mistake of many and assume you know what I meant..