Dispensationalism

Red33 · Mar 9, 2011

Zone,

You know what I am referring to and what we have communicated in the past. Perhaps this will stir up your recollection when you said to me...

quote - 'you've already made your choice: BABYLON.

until then, you're going to deeper and deeper into deception.

don't contact me again unless you repent' - unquote

I would say that you were more than entitled to your opinion with this response. There are many other things which you have said concerning your experience with the local church. Perhaps this is why you can relate to others that have had similar experiences and refuse to be part of a local assembly where they can grow wit others in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is nothing clever about the wounds that a person goes through and how it effects their life for the better or for the worse and how they appreciate the truth because of how that has effected them mentally and emotionally. Some believers think that these are secondary issues and are not important to our salvation, but I think that you know that to be untrue because our understanding of doctrine concerning future events that involves Israel and the church effect how we relate to others in the plan of God with the gospel of Christ and the grace of God.

Zilla64007 · Mar 9, 2011

for the record, I am in complete agreement w/ zone. dispensationalism is nothing more than a doctrine created by man, & profoundly enough, echoes some of the fundamental beliefs of gnosticism. i ignorantly believed it once in my life, but after studying scripture, i dont anymore.

in where i live and go to church, it would be easy for me to plainly accept it... its the popular christian teaching here... but just because something in christianity is popular, does not make it biblically sound

ONE_LORD · Mar 9, 2011

I agree popular does not mean Bible Doctrine in Rom. 3:4 Let every man be a liar but God be true. I am often posed with people saying "there is no way millions can be wrong.. most are baptist or other protestant believers... that is why I am not protestant

Red33 · Mar 9, 2011

Zilla64007 said:

If you have been called to be a joint participant in that local assembly, you should follow the doctrine that is taught there. If you do not agree with their doctrine you should go to the senior pastor and tell him what your convictions are and ask him what he thinks. How can you be a member and joint participant of a local assembly and walk together with those with whom you do not agree (Amos 3:3)?

zone · Mar 10, 2011

Red33 said:

anyone who has been contacted by you via private messege and has replied, should be prepared to see their private correspondence on public display......alarming.

Red33 said:

i don't have a church at the moment, and have said why: most are cults (including the ones who promote christian zionism). in any case, its none of your concern about what i do, or don't do.

Red33 said:

is that your tactic? to suggest i'm mentally or emotionally unwell? all because you're ticked off about having your theology questioned?

Red33 said:

on and on.....this is a public forum - you are entitled to post directly to me, but it would be good if you didn't try to "get personal", since you don't know me, and, since you're wrong.

zone · Mar 10, 2011

Zilla64007 said:

thanks for the support on this, zilla - adhering to dispensationalism and memorizing (internalizing) its doctrines seems to take control of people's ability to think reasonably and critically. at least that's what i'm discovering. i'll keep posting on it in the hope some folks might shake loose from it or avoid it altogether.
zone

Zilla64007 · Mar 10, 2011

Red33 said:

first of all, i will not follow nor support a teaching or doctrine that unleavens the whole lump. I have already seen how far Pastor John Hagee has taken it here in San Antonio. He was so extremely quick to admonish, venerate, and idolize the physical Jewish nation, that he openly aired and proclaimed that Jesus Christ did not come to be the Messiah when he advertised his book In Defense of Israel.
there is nothing special about the Jewish nation today... just like every other man, woman, and child on this planet who does not believe, every National Jewish man, woman, and child who does not believe in Jesus Christ are condemned. No one today can get saved from sacrifices. Jesus fulfilled that law when He said "it is finished" before He died on that cross

second, i have the authority in Jesus Christ to rebuke my pastor or a friend who teaches any gospel that is contrary to what Jesus Christ taught, as we are instructed to do in Galatians 1:6-10, & just as Paul rebuked Peter in Galatians 2:11-21.
I have spoken to my pastor about this, and his father about it as well, and i will continue to discuss it with him. I've even bought him a DVD exploring the 19th century creator of this theology, and when the Biblical dvd is released, i will give it to him as well, and will buy a copy for myself

third: you, red33, have no authority to tell me why i should be here or not... that is between me and the Father. He has me here for a season, and I will stay there for that season

fourth: my church openly welcomes any person of any Christian faith, whether they be methodist, presbyterian, wesleyan, arminian, calvinist, baptist, lutheran, Seventh Day Adventist, or pentecostal. we dont care what denomination you come from, we just want to reach, teach, and help in Jesus Name... it is because of that we are strengthened in the body, and God continues to bless us as He has continued to do for now, and all glory & praise goes to Him for that.

endofallfears · Mar 10, 2011

Those who follow Dispensationalism will be part of a compromising church who sleep when the thief comes to spoil the house. They observe the times and seasons with no wit to prepare for what is to come.

Scotth1960 · Mar 10, 2011

endofallfears said:

I think it is a myth and a mistake to suppose that the non-dispensationalists know and understand all the coming events of the future of earth any better than the dispensationalists. But that's the point. It is not for any one to know the times or the seasons, and no one knows the day or the hour of the coming again of Christ, or the day of the LORD. It's all in God's hand: God alone knows the secret of the future of the earth and all that are on it. Or of all who have been on earth in ages of ages past. It's all up to God's judgment and God's mercy. What will happen in the future is pre-ordained by God. Only God knows what is pre-ordained. Take care.

Red33 · Mar 10, 2011

Zilla64007 said:

first of all, i will not follow nor support a teaching or doctrine that unleavens the whole lump. I have already seen how far Pastor John Hagee has taken it here in San Antonio. He was so extremely quick to admonish, venerate, and idolize the physical Jewish nation, that he openly aired and proclaimed that Jesus Christ did not come to be the Messiah when he advertised his book In Defense of Israel.
there is nothing special about the Jewish nation today... just like every other man, woman, and child on this planet who does not believe, every National Jewish man, woman, and child who does not believe in Jesus Christ are condemned. No one today can get saved from sacrifices. Jesus fulfilled that law when He said "it is finished" before He died on that cross

second, i have the authority in Jesus Christ to rebuke my pastor or a friend who teaches any gospel that is contrary to what Jesus Christ taught, as we are instructed to do in Galatians 1:6-10, & just as Paul rebuked Peter in Galatians 2:11-21.
I have spoken to my pastor about this, and his father about it as well, and i will continue to discuss it with him. I've even bought him a DVD exploring the 19th century creator of this theology, and when the Biblical dvd is released, i will give it to him as well, and will buy a copy for myself

third: you, red33, have no authority to tell me why i should be here or not... that is between me and the Father. He has me here for a season, and I will stay there for that season

fourth: my church openly welcomes any person of any Christian faith, whether they be methodist, presbyterian, wesleyan, arminian, calvinist, baptist, lutheran, Seventh Day Adventist, or pentecostal. we dont care what denomination you come from, we just want to reach, teach, and help in Jesus Name... it is because of that we are strengthened in the body, and God continues to bless us as He has continued to do for now, and all glory & praise goes to Him for that.

It's always a beautiful thing when in order to give an answer or response that some pastor has to be attacked and judged for what they believe and teach according to the scriptures. Have it your way, because we all shall reap what we sow.

Red33 · Mar 10, 2011

endofallfears said:

What makes you think that they will be sleeping? Do you think that they will not have their lamps full of oil and not be walking in the Spirit because they have an understanding of dispensational truth? How foolish to suggest such a thing. If anything they will be quickened by the Spirit and the word and be watching and waiting and fully prepared having put on the whole armour of God. Are you just as deluded as some of the others or are you just sentimental with them because you have a soft spot in your heart?

zone · Mar 10, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

hi Scott.
i'm finding that with the dispy blinders off, the fulfilled prophesies are clear and that leaves the unfulfilled (and those which will have a future ultimate fulfillment even though they were fulfilled [save a few telling details] in the past - just like the prophets of old, as we look to the furture there's always one more MOUNTAIN)

Zilla64007 · Mar 10, 2011

Red33, but have you not read Proverbs 27:6?

Red33 · Mar 10, 2011

Zilla64007 said:

Explain the application that you meant when giving this verse or at least give an illustration?

Scotth1960 · Mar 10, 2011

zone said:

DISPENSATIONALISM

The dispensationalist theology of John Nelson Darby which motivates one stream of American Christian Zionism is often claimed to be the foundation of American Christian Zionism. He first distinguished the hopes of the Jews and that of the church and gentiles in his ground-breaking series of 11 evening lectures in Geneva in 1840. His lectures were immediately published in French (L'Attente Actuelle de l'Eglise), English (1841), German and Dutch (1847) and so his teachings began their global journey.

While there is no doubt that it had a great influence through the Scofield Bible, Christian support of the restoration of the Jews preceded the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible (first published by OUP, 1917) for nearly a century, and many prominent Christian Zionists and Christian Zionist organizations such as the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem do not subscribe to dispensationalism.

The tycoon William Eugene Blackstone was inspired by the conference to publish the book Jesus is Coming, which took up the restorationist cause, and also absolved the Jews of the need to convert to Christianity either before or after the return of the Messiah. His book was translated and published in Yiddish. In 1891 he lobbied President Benjamin Harrison for the restoration of the Jews, in a petition signed by over 400 prominent Americans, that became known as the Blackstone Memorial.

In the United States, dispensationalist Christian Zionism was popularized by the evangelical Cyrus Scofield (1843–1921), who promoted the doctrine that Jesus could not return to reign on Earth until certain events occurred. In the interim, prior to these last days events, Scofield's system taught that the Christian church was primarily for the salvation of the Gentiles, and that according to God's plan the Jewish people are under a different dispensation of God's grace, which has been put out of gear so to speak, until the last days (the common name of this view is, dispensationalism), when the Christian Church will be removed from the earth by a miracle (called the Rapture).

Scofield writing in the 1900s said that, in those last days, the Bible predicts the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and particularly to Jerusalem. Scofield further predicted that, Islamic holy places would be destroyed, and the Temple in Jerusalem would be rebuilt - signalling the very end of the Church Age when the Antichrist would arise, and all who seek to keep the covenant with God will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah in defiance of the Antichrist.

Charles Taze Russell was another early Christian advocate of Zionism - but with an altogether different prophetic programme to orthodox Trinitarian dispensationalists.

Christian Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Canfield, Joseph M. (2005). The Incredible Scofield and His Book. 2nd ed. Vallecito, CA: Ross House Books. Must reading for people who love the truth about the heretical origins of dispensationalism and Scofieldism.
See also: Cox, William E. Why I Left Scofieldism. Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian & Reformed Publishing Co.

Zilla64007 · Mar 10, 2011

Red33 said:

a true friend will tell his/her friend the truth... even if it hurts. the truth is not always sweet sunshine, and if one really cares about another, they will tell them the truth, just as paul did to peter. Paul openly rebuked peter, and he saw peter as his brother.

all scripture is God-inspired and good for reproof, rebuke, and instruction in righteousness (paraphrase)...

if you had a very close friend and knew he was following something wrong, doing something wrong, or teaching something wrong, would you tell him that he was wrong, and rebuke him with scripture... or would you let him continue to do that which is wrong?

God holds us accountable for everything we do... & even if we know what is right to do, and still not do it, that is considered sin (james 4:17)

zone · Mar 10, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

WHY I LEFT SCOFIELDISM

by
William E.Cox

Breaking away from the fascinating teachings of The Scofield Reference Bible was one of the most difficult decisions of my entire life. Even after doubts arose in my mind, it took some seven or eight years to relinquish the ready-made theological clothing I had worn since the day of my conversion. For I was saved, at the age of sixteen, in a Baptist church where almost everyone carried a Scofield Bible. My spiritual tutors knew the footnotes and headings placed in the Bible by C. I. Scofield as well as they knew the Bible itself. Indeed, the two had become almost synonymous in their minds even as they were destined to become in my own mind. Even today it is difficult at times to clear my mind of some of Scofield's presuppositions when I study God's Word.

Why I left Scofieldism

zone · Mar 10, 2011

zone said:

1. SCOFIELD DOWNGRADES THE CHURCH AND HER ROLE IN GOD'S PLAN.
Historic Christian teaching always has been that the church was the antitype of national Israel. This teaching goes on to say that the church succeeded Israel at the first advent, and that all unfulfilled promises to Abraham will be fulfilled in and through the church.
Scofield admits that this is the historic Christian teaching, then proceeds to teach that it is erroneous. He says: "Especially is it necessary to exclude the notion - a legacy in Protestant thought from post-apostolic and Roman Catholic theology - that the Church is the true Israel, and that the Old Testament foreview of the kingdom is fulfilled in the Church" (p. 989, S.R.B.).

II. SCOFIELD TEACHES THAT GOD HAS TWO BODIES - ISRAEL AND THE CHURCH.
Let us first get before us the age-old Christian teaching on this subject: God always has had but one people. In the Old Testament this people (the type) was called Israel. In the New Testament the antitype was known as the church, or "the Israel of God." The elect number from Israel plus the elect number of Gentiles constitute one and the same olive tree (Rom. 11: 17,24).

Here, again, Scofield begs to differ from the New Testament writers, the church fathers, the reformers, and the outstanding commentators. He chooses rather to accept another of John Nelson Darby's "rediscovered truths" instead of the historic Christian teaching. He teaches that Israel is an earthly people while the church is a heavenly people; that God has two separate plans for these two distinct peoples; and that Israel and the church have separate destinies. Israel, he says, will spend eternity on earth while the church, made up of Jews and Gentiles, will spend eternity in heaven.

III. SCOFIELD TEACHES THAT GOD'S PROMISES TO NATIONAL ISRAEL AWAIT FUTURE FULFILLMENT.
What is the historic Christian teaching on this subject? All such promises have been either fulfilled or invalidated through unbelief. Those on which Scofield rests most of his case have been literally fulfilled, and these fulfillments are clearly recorded in the Bible.

Scofield, on the other hand, teaches that God has future plans to regather national Israel to Palestine, rebuild the Temple, and reinstitute the Old Testament economy (including the blood sacrifices). The reader might find it interesting to look at some of the typical scriptures on which Scofield builds this argument. On page 157, note 2, one reads: "The feast of Trumpets, vs. 23-25. This feast is a prophetical type and refers to the future regathering of long-dispersed Israel." This footnote goes on to state that trumpets are always symbols of testimony and that they are connected with the regathering and repentance of Israel after the church, or pentecostal, period is ended.

Why I left Scofieldism

~

MILLENNIUM REIGN

The Millennium reign doctrine began as a Judaism doctrine called the Schism. The Jews believed that the millennium or Schism would be a natural reign, where the Messiah would reign upon the earth, with a earthly kingdom. It is why they rejected Christ, for Christ said the "Kingdom is within you" and there is no end to that Kingdom. It is not for a thousand years but forever. "Neander's History of Christian Dogmas, Vol. 1 Page 248.

"The idea of a Millennial reign proceeded from Judaism; for among the Jews the representation was current that the Messiah would reign a thousand years upon earth... Such products of Jewish imagination passed over into Christianity.

The Millennium was introduced or started from a "heretic" named Cerinthus, in the first century as spoken by history in Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Chapter 28, is a fragment from the writings of Caius, who lived in the last of the second century, which gives us the following account of Cerinthus's heresy:

"But Cerinthus, too, through revelations written, as he would have us believe, by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things, which he pretends were shown to him by angels; alleging that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem is again to be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy to the scriptures of God," , wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be space of a thousand years for marriage festivities" "One of the doctrines he taught was, that Christ would have an earthly kingdom."

This is the true origin of the thousand year reign theory. Notice how the history of Caius, how lightly he speaks of Cerinthus idea of the thousand year reign being here on earth after the resurrection. He says this doctrine was

"something which Cerinthus pretends was shown to him by angels."

Caius must have believed the orthodox teachings of the scriptures, that Christ's kingdom was set up at His first coming. Notice how Caius calls Cerinthus "an enemy to the scriptures of God," and one who was "wishing to deceive men."

Now Cerinthus lived in the same time of Apostle John, the author of Revelations, and the following is how the Apostle John felt about Cerinthus:

Irenaeus, an early church father lived around 120 A.D. and was acquainted with Polycarp, the disciple of Apostle John and wrote the following:

[Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., V. 24], states that while Apostle John was at Ephesus, he entered a bath to wash and found that Cerinthus was within, and refused to bathe in the same bath house, but left the building, and exhorted those with him to do the same, saying "let us flee, lest the bath fall in, as long as Cerinthus, that enemy of the truth is within"
Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., III. 28.

Apostle John was calling the heretic Cerinthus, the originator of the thousand year reign, a "liar".

"No where in the discourses of Jesus is there a hint of a limited duration of the Messianic Kingdom. The apostolic epistles are equally free from any trace of Chiliasm (thousand year reign)." Encyclopedia Britannica---Articles on Millennium.

So, the theory of a thousand year reign (on earth), throughout history was gathered from Jewish fabulous "apocalypse", "unwritten tradition," carnal misapprehensions," "pretended visions," "suppositions," and "superstitious imaginations."

Millennium Reign

~

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 16:9
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Revelation 17:7
And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

~

Matthew 16:11
How is it that you fail to understand that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

~

any thoughts?

zone · Mar 10, 2011

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

AnandaHya · Mar 10, 2011

Interesting topic. I've often questioned these thoughts myself and haven't decided what I believe to be true. I prayed about it and asked God why people pump so much money, influence and power in supporting the establishment of the Israeli state and someone quoted the ideas mentioned above.

Personally my church doesn't discuss the topic. It is not considered a "salvation issue" Therefore people are allowed to hold differing opinions on the topic without hurting the integrity of the church body. For example the stomach makes digestive juices but if the acid was found in you foot it would not be a good thing. Therefore some thoughts can be held in the mind of some members as long as it does not prove cancerous to the body as a whole.

I just wanted to inject some vital fluids into the conversation as reminders of what it means to be true disciples of Christ:

1. we believe the Jesus is the Son of God and came and died on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins = grace/salvation

The focus should not be on whether Jews are going into Heaven, or if one side is "right" or not.

It should be on God and what God wants for us to do in the world.

Does God want us to fight with each other? Does God want us to help each other do His will by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, weeping with the widows? Doesn't God want us to show the world mercy, not demand more sacrifices to appease our personal sense of pride and justification?

Let God be right and all men liars.

How does this discussion benefit and move towards God's will on Earth?

I think it shows that everyone is in need of Jesus and His redemption on the cross. I think it highlights that there are many false preachers and prophets in the world and that we should listen to scripture and not follow the thieves that come to lead the sheep astray. We should beware of wolves in sheep clothing. We should not allow the scribes with their words prevent us from doing what God has called us to do in this world. Which is to spread the Good News. The Kingdom of Christ is at hand! Those with ears to hear let them hear! We walk with the shoes of peace and greet people with the sword of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit divides what is righteous and what is not and lights the path which we are to walk.

Let us walk that path and speak of it.

Personally God hasn't called me to help and make the Jewish nation strong or support their claim on Israel. There are enough hungry, poor and lost around me that I can spend my days helping feed, clothe and love that I'll leave the politics and establishment of nations to God and those He gives that duty to. I'm just a foot solider working in the trenches. I teach high school kids most days and sometimes the war zone analogy isn't too far off base.

The Middle East is in my prayers. I had a dream that a dragon was born during the revolt in Tunisia. That it moved as the banner of revolt moved and that the blood shed by the innocents were sacrifices to it Now it seats gorged by the deaths of thousands in Libya. It snakes out it power and darkness into the minds of many. I do not know what it means but my heart is deeply troubled. When I pray and read the Bible I get passages that talk about the slaughter of babies and the gnashing of teeth. The rise of the AntiChrist and I wonder what kind of world will my children grow up in?

There is change in the air. Many in the Roman Empire did not believe it would collapse either. Only through remember that we should put our trust in God do I keep from despairing.

words hold power, but God holds more. when we pray remember to stop and listen for the answer, its suppose to be a two way conversation.

I don't know I've been having conversations with a local Southern Baptist pastor and he very much believes in some of the precepts of "Scofieldism" I attended and joined the church over the summer before he became pastor there. I have since distanced myself because i'm not sure if I agree with all the declaration of faith that the church members believe. I agree with the basics but there are some unspoken things that God and I are still discussing, because I am also in contact with an Episcopalian minister that was the college chaplain at the university that I attended. They both have vastly contradicting opinions on lots of Bible topics and what it means to be Christian. I don't know whose opinion is right. I've prayed about it and I think they are both dedicated Christians working towards a closer relationship with God. But why is the Christian Church divided?

A house divided can not stand is what Jesus tells us. Some days i get so confused. There is so much in the universe mankind does not even begin to grasp. For example: quantum physics, genetics, astronomy all have many unanswered questions.I try and focus on the one thing that is a solid foundation for the rest. I remember the cornerstone of Jesus Christ and His love for us.

I hope you all have a blessed night and pray that you find God's peace and love in your hearts and I pray that when I meet God He will not be ashamed to call me His child.

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