Dispensationalism

zone · Mar 10, 2011

zone said:

1. SCOFIELD DOWNGRADES THE CHURCH AND HER ROLE IN GOD'S PLAN.
Historic Christian teaching always has been that the church was the antitype of national Israel. This teaching goes on to say that the church succeeded Israel at the first advent, and that all unfulfilled promises to Abraham will be fulfilled in and through the church.

Scofield admits that this is the historic Christian teaching, then proceeds to teach that it is erroneous. He says: "Especially is it necessary to exclude the notion - a legacy in Protestant thought from post-apostolic and Roman Catholic theology - that the Church is the true Israel, and that the Old Testament foreview of the kingdom is fulfilled in the Church" (p. 989, S.R.B.).

II. SCOFIELD TEACHES THAT GOD HAS TWO BODIES - ISRAEL AND THE CHURCH.
Let us first get before us the age-old Christian teaching on this subject: God always has had but one people. In the Old Testament this people (the type) was called Israel. In the New Testament the antitype was known as the church, or "the Israel of God." The elect number from Israel plus the elect number of Gentiles constitute one and the same olive tree (Rom. 11: 17,24).

Here, again, Scofield begs to differ from the New Testament writers, the church fathers, the reformers, and the outstanding commentators. He chooses rather to accept another of John Nelson Darby's "rediscovered truths" instead of the historic Christian teaching. He teaches that Israel is an earthly people while the church is a heavenly people; that God has two separate plans for these two distinct peoples; and that Israel and the church have separate destinies. Israel, he says, will spend eternity on earth while the church, made up of Jews and Gentiles, will spend eternity in heaven.

III. SCOFIELD TEACHES THAT GOD'S PROMISES TO NATIONAL ISRAEL AWAIT FUTURE FULFILLMENT.
What is the historic Christian teaching on this subject? All such promises have been either fulfilled or invalidated through unbelief. Those on which Scofield rests most of his case have been literally fulfilled, and these fulfillments are clearly recorded in the Bible.

Scofield, on the other hand, teaches that God has future plans to regather national Israel to Palestine, rebuild the Temple, and reinstitute the Old Testament economy (including the blood sacrifices). The reader might find it interesting to look at some of the typical scriptures on which Scofield builds this argument. On page 157, note 2, one reads: "The feast of Trumpets, vs. 23-25. This feast is a prophetical type and refers to the future regathering of long-dispersed Israel." This footnote goes on to state that trumpets are always symbols of testimony and that they are connected with the regathering and repentance of Israel after the church, or pentecostal, period is ended.

Why I left Scofieldism

~

MILLENNIUM REIGN

The Millennium reign doctrine began as a Judaism doctrine called the Schism. The Jews believed that the millennium or Schism would be a natural reign, where the Messiah would reign upon the earth, with a earthly kingdom. It is why they rejected Christ, for Christ said the "Kingdom is within you" and there is no end to that Kingdom. It is not for a thousand years but forever. "Neander's History of Christian Dogmas, Vol. 1 Page 248.

"The idea of a Millennial reign proceeded from Judaism; for among the Jews the representation was current that the Messiah would reign a thousand years upon earth... Such products of Jewish imagination passed over into Christianity.

The Millennium was introduced or started from a "heretic" named Cerinthus, in the first century as spoken by history in Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Chapter 28, is a fragment from the writings of Caius, who lived in the last of the second century, which gives us the following account of Cerinthus's heresy:

"But Cerinthus, too, through revelations written, as he would have us believe, by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things, which he pretends were shown to him by angels; alleging that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem is again to be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy to the scriptures of God," , wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be space of a thousand years for marriage festivities" "One of the doctrines he taught was, that Christ would have an earthly kingdom."

This is the true origin of the thousand year reign theory. Notice how the history of Caius, how lightly he speaks of Cerinthus idea of the thousand year reign being here on earth after the resurrection. He says this doctrine was

"something which Cerinthus pretends was shown to him by angels."

Caius must have believed the orthodox teachings of the scriptures, that Christ's kingdom was set up at His first coming. Notice how Caius calls Cerinthus "an enemy to the scriptures of God," and one who was "wishing to deceive men."

Now Cerinthus lived in the same time of Apostle John, the author of Revelations, and the following is how the Apostle John felt about Cerinthus:

Irenaeus, an early church father lived around 120 A.D. and was acquainted with Polycarp, the disciple of Apostle John and wrote the following:

[Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., V. 24], states that while Apostle John was at Ephesus, he entered a bath to wash and found that Cerinthus was within, and refused to bathe in the same bath house, but left the building, and exhorted those with him to do the same, saying "let us flee, lest the bath fall in, as long as Cerinthus, that enemy of the truth is within"
Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., III. 28.

Apostle John was calling the heretic Cerinthus, the originator of the thousand year reign, a "liar".

"No where in the discourses of Jesus is there a hint of a limited duration of the Messianic Kingdom. The apostolic epistles are equally free from any trace of Chiliasm (thousand year reign)." Encyclopedia Britannica---Articles on Millennium.

So, the theory of a thousand year reign (on earth), throughout history was gathered from Jewish fabulous "apocalypse", "unwritten tradition," carnal misapprehensions," "pretended visions," "suppositions," and "superstitious imaginations."

Millennium Reign

~

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 16:9
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Revelation 17:7
And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

~

Matthew 16:11
How is it that you fail to understand that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

~

any thoughts?

~ bump

zone · Mar 11, 2011

BUMP

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/20699-dispensationalism-2.html

Red33 · Mar 11, 2011

Zilla64007 said:

This is where the grace of God and discernment comes into play. You can't always tell someone, flat out, they are wrong because there would be no discretion in that. You alway have to discern the person's heart whether they are intreatable to the truth that they might be missing or misunderstood.

Those that are out there and flagrantly misrepresent the truth, in word and doctrine, they just might need to be rebuked creatively through love or perhaps through an open rebuke. When this is done through discernment it does not involve retaliation or done through a negative reaction where the individual has lost self control. It may be done dogmatically through reproof because the mind and emotions of the one who needs it must line up with the word of God so they can get victory over things in their life that have overcome them over a long period of time. The Holy Spirit is involved in all this.

You can express truth with the appearance and reality of being angry when others are obstinate and rebellious in their heart. We don't always exercise ourselves in a perfect way when we are communicating and we need to continue to learn how to communicate with wisdom, which by the way will always be objective and justified whether others like it or not. Sometimes a person will make a point that gets us upset inwardly and we go off steaming mad. Later, when we have subsided, the Holy Spirit uses that point to convict our heart and we respond by faith to that conviction and we grow up.

zone · Mar 11, 2011

Red33 said:

Necto said:

Red33 said:

what is so ironic is that your own words apply to YOU.

keep telling people God has led them to defend DISPENSATIONALISM AND ATTENDING HERESIES.
keep telling people who refute that junk that they are lying to the Holy Spirit.

if God has mercy on you, you will one day find yourself where Cox and Riddlebarger and countless others have: ASHAMED, but forgiven....and grateful.

WHY I LEFT SCOFIELDISM
by
William E.Cox

Breaking away from the fascinating teachings of The Scofield Reference Bible was one of the most difficult decisions of my entire life. Even after doubts arose in my mind, it took some seven or eight years to relinquish the ready-made theological clothing I had worn since the day of my conversion. For I was saved, at the age of sixteen, in a Baptist church where almost everyone carried a Scofield Bible. My spiritual tutors knew the footnotes and headings placed in the Bible by C. I. Scofield as well as they knew the Bible itself. Indeed, the two had become almost synonymous in their minds even as they were destined to become in my own mind. Even today it is difficult at times to clear my mind of some of Scofield's presuppositions when I study God's Word.

Why I left Scofieldism

Red33 · Mar 11, 2011

Does a little edification and building up of a member of the body of Christ, who is going to be raptured with every born again believer, who has trusted Christ for the forgiveness and cleansing of sins, bother you and make you feel uncomfortable? The very possibility that the church and body of Christ could be caught up, before the time of the great tribulation, to meet the Lord in the air and ever be with the LORD, repulses you and turns your stomach. Now that is true, because you will never edify those that you despise in the truth. You do despise them because they turn your stomach and you count them and what they teach as trash. You have disapproved of them because of what they teach and if what they teach has truly come from the Spirit through the word and doctrine, then you and others have alot to answer for, especially you and how you have trashed others that oppose what you believe.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Mar 11, 2011

zone said:

what is so ironic is that your own words apply to YOU.

keep telling people God has led them to defend DISPENSATIONALISM AND ATTENDING HERESIES.
keep telling people who refute that junk that they are lying to the Holy Spirit.

if God has mercy on you, you will one day find yourself where Cox and Riddlebarger and countless others have: ASHAMED, but forgiven....and grateful.

WHY I LEFT SCOFIELDISM
by
William E.Cox

Breaking away from the fascinating teachings of The Scofield Reference Bible was one of the most difficult decisions of my entire life. Even after doubts arose in my mind, it took some seven or eight years to relinquish the ready-made theological clothing I had worn since the day of my conversion. For I was saved, at the age of sixteen, in a Baptist church where almost everyone carried a Scofield Bible. My spiritual tutors knew the footnotes and headings placed in the Bible by C. I. Scofield as well as they knew the Bible itself. Indeed, the two had become almost synonymous in their minds even as they were destined to become in my own mind. Even today it is difficult at times to clear my mind of some of Scofield's presuppositions when I study God's Word.

Why I left Scofieldism

I can certainly relate to Mr. Cox. :-(

zone · Mar 11, 2011

Red33 said:

it most assuredly does.
and i will fight it to my last breath.

i don't believe in scratching itching ears.

Red33 said:

you've got that right. it came from a demon-possessed woman and was carried into the church by demon-possessed men.

of course, the doctrines of devils they carried has a very important role to play in satan's SHORT SPACE.

it's REVOLTING.

Red33 said:

keep your dialectic that makes this PERSONAL to yourself. you had it right in the previous quotation. now you want to make it about PEOPLE because you are either: feeling desperate as The Holy Spirit is convicting you about your false doctrine, or you are IN ON IT (freemasonic infiltration). i won't judge either way.

i DESPISE false doctrine of pretrib escapist wimpism.

i don't hate ANY man.

it's i who keeps pleading that we tell the jewish people the TRUTH, and that there is BUT ONE COVENANT. i've been trashed for that, and for fighting pretrib and Scofield. but that won't stop me Red.

Red33 said:

a few people have come forward to denounce that horrible DOCTRINE of devils. others may or may not speak out. we'll see.

its you and the american dispensationalists (who got it from british occultists wescott & hort, who got it from talmudic rabbis) who have a lot to answer for.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons

zone · Mar 11, 2011

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

thanks PPS.
testimony like his gives courage and hope to others to come out of it.
they have a big battle ahead.
they may lose their church and their friends. but, isn't that what we were told?

Red33 · Mar 11, 2011

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

You relate because demons seduced and persuaded you otherwise with their doctrines that are contrary to the nature of God as they did with Mr Cox. You boast yourself that you learned the truth all on your own. What a prime candidate for giving place and being deceived by the devil.

Alot of people don't like it when the strategies of Satan and demons are exposed. They get upset inwardly and feel strange because demons do not like being exposed. Others arrogantly believe that Satan has been bound so there's no way I could ever be deceived by doctrines of demons. That's just a bunch of trash, they say.

zone · Mar 11, 2011

Red33 said:

Rapture

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doctrinal history
The concept of the rapture, in connection with premillennialism, was expressed by the American Puritan father and son Increase and Cotton Mather. They held to the idea that believers would be caught up in the air, followed by judgments on the earth and then the millennium.[21][22] The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge (1738) and John Gill (1748) in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on the earth and Jesus' Second Coming.

There exist at least one 18th century and two 19th century Pre-Tribulation references: in an essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia by the Baptist Morgan Edwards which articulated the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture,[23] in the writings of Catholic priest Emmanuel Lacunza in 1812,[24] and by John Nelson Darby himself in 1827.[25] However, both the book published in 1788 and the writings of Lacunza have opposing views regarding their interpretations. A Jesuit priest, Manuel Lacunza (1731–1801), was born in Chile but came to Italy in 1767 where he would spend the rest of his life. Posing as a converted Jew (under the pseudonym Juan Josafat Ben Ezra), he wrote, in Spanish, a large apocalyptic work entitled La venida del Mesías en gloria y majestad [The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty]. The book appeared first in 1811, 10 years after his death. In 1827, it was translated[citation needed] into English by Edward Irving, an acquaintance of and possible[original research?] influence on Darby.

Dr. Samuel Prideaux Tregelles, a respected theologian and biblical scholar, who lived during the rapid growth in popularity of the "secret rapture" teaching, wrote a pamphlet[26] which traces the concept of rapture through John N. Darby back to Edward Irving.

_____________________________________________________

The early original Christian churches, as well as the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox churches, the Anglican Communion, and most Protestant Calvinist denominations have no tradition of a preliminary return of Christ and reject the doctrine, in part because there is no reference to it among any of the early Church fathers nor any traditional teaching and it's not biblical, in that it contradicts the chronology given by Jesus Himself, creating a dilemma of either believing in a rapture while calling Jesus (the one whom they believe to be God) a liar, or accepting what Jesus told them in the exact chronological sequences He specified, and because of their rejection of the 19th-century concept of dispensationalism.[31] Some also[which?] reject it because they interpret prophetic scriptures in either an amillennial or postmillennial fashion.

Rapture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WomanLovesTX · Mar 11, 2011

zone said:

Zone, what is your take on blasemphy of the Holy Spirit?

Is it, the Pharisees accusing Jeus' miracles being as power coming from Belzebub, which they[Pharisees] did consciously acuse Jesus? Bringing that case into the future (our present day), is it still anyone who denies the power of God and God's only begotten son consciously and accuses that that power of the believer is from the devil, and the accuser is commiting the unforgivable sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or is it something entirely different to you?

What is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Can A Christian Commit it? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Now what I am going to say is no view(s) are 100% interpreted the same way (via the Holy Spirit teaching within us - by understanding or a presentation from another/spirit confirming in your spirit what you hear or read). I cannot assume that the revelations that God chooses for me to understand today are false or bad. I am were I am in my understanding via God's timing (not mine) and fully trusting Father God to do what is right for me, as He so chooses. There is a short story (fictional) I wish to share that quickened to my spirit for understanding. I hope none are offended, that is not my intentions. God Bless each of us

Rabbi Joshua ben Levi

In The Company of The Prophet Elijah

You have all heard of the Prophet Elijah who has never died; who, unseen to us, visits us on the Seder nights and during the rest of the year is busy helping the poor and the sick. It is Elijah who will one day bring the good tidings that G-d has been filled with compassion for His people and is sending them the Messiah to redeem them from their long exile.

This story is about Elijah and about a great sage who wanted to learn more about him. The name of the sage was Rabbi Joshua ben Levi.

One day, when Elijah was on his errands of mercy, he was met by Rabbi Joshua. Although usually unseen by anyone, unless the Prophet wants to be seen and recognized, Rabbi Joshua saw and recognized Elijah and greeted him respectfully. Then he begged the Prophet to take him along on his journey.

"Where I go," Elijah replied, "there must be no human companion. Humans do not see everything, and what they see they do not always understand. Pray, be not curious, let me go."

Elijah's words only strengthened Rabbi Joshua's desire to accompany the Prophet and benefit from his companionship. The sage continued to plead: "I promise that I shalt not weary you with questions and shall in no way interfere with your mission. Take me with you, Master." sage: "Remember, as soon as you will begin asking me questions to explain that which you will not understand, our ways must part."

Towards evening the weary old travelers came to an old shaky hut of a poor couple. Both the man and his wife were sitting outside their home. When they saw the two travelers they rose and, in the true fashion of the children of Abraham, they welcomed the strangers to their humble home. What little food they had in the house, they gladly shared with the guests, and offered them their beds for rest. They themselves made their beds on the straw in the cow-shed that housed their cow. The cow was their only valuable possession, for its milk was their whole source of income.

In the morning the Prophet and sage took leave from the kindly couple, as soon as they were out of sight, the Prophet Elijah prayed that the cow of the poor couple should fall dead. Rabbi Joshua was terribly shocked and upset. "Why should you repay for the kindness and hospitality of these people with such ingratitude?!" he wanted to exclaim. But he remembered the Prophet's warning and kept his silence.

All day long they wandered together and the Prophet taught the sage many teachings without a word of explanation about his way with the poor couple.

Towards evening they came to a fine mansion and asked permission to spend the night there. The rich man who lived there did not receive them with a friendly face. Grudgingly he permitted them to stay the night in his house, but offered them no food or a kind word. In the morning, as they were about to leave, they noticed a crack in the wall. Elijah did not say a word, but no sooner were they gone when the Prophet prayed that the cracked, dangerous wall be restored to solid strength.

Again Rabbi Joshua was amazed. "Why should the rich miser be spared the trouble and expense of repairing his wall?" thought he, but remembering the Prophet's warning he held his peace.

After a long and tiring day's journey, the two reached a city that had a beautiful House of Prayer. The walls were made of marble, and the benches of carved wood. The scrolls were richly adorned, and the Ark was a masterpiece of art. "Here, certainly, we shall be made welcome and treated with respect," thought Rabbi Joshua. But he was wrong again. After the evening prayers, no one seemed to take an interest in the strangers, and none of the wealthy members offered them a bed and food. The Prophet and the sage had to spend the night on the precious but hard wooden benches. When they left in the morning, the Prophet wished the members of the community that they should all become Aldermen of the city.

Rabbi Joshua was sorely tried to keep his silence, what with his empty stomach and aching bones. The Prophet's blessing to the unkind people puzzled him greatly, but he sealed his lips and buried his question deep in his heart.

The companions reached another city. The House of Prayer was not as beautiful as the one they visited the day before, but the people made up for it in kindness and hospitality. They enjoyed a rest in the best house of the town, and were honored like princes. When it was time to go, the Prophet turned to the good people and said: "May G-d grant that only one of you be a leader."

This was the last straw. The sage was no longer able to control himself. Forgetting the Prophet's warning, he exclaimed: "Revered Master! Far be it from me to tell you what to do. Yet it seems to me that you add insult to injury; that you reward good with evil, and evil with good. Please explain to me your strange ways."

"I warned you that humans judge by the sight of their eyes, but there is more in life than meets the eye. According to our agreement, you will have to leave me now. But let me explain to you at least what you have witnessed, and your heart will be able to live in peace.

"You see, the poor old couple who received us so nicely on the first night of our journey, certainly deserved our gratitude. I saw to my great sorrow that that very day the woman was destined to die. We gave them an opportunity, to do an act of charity and I prayed to G-d that she should live, and that their cow take her place. Although they lost their most precious possession, they will be able to stay together for a few years more. He who gives life will also provide for their support."

"I see now," exclaimed Rabbi joshua. "But what about that rich miser, and his cracked wall?"

"There was a huge treasure buried beneath the wall. Had it collapsed, the miser would have found it. That's why. "I could not have known that, of course," said Rabbi Joshua. "Now, why did you bless the men of the beautiful synagogue who did not open their homes to us?"

"That was no blessing, my friend," replied Elijah. "A community where everybody is a leader is not a happy place to live in. This is also the explanation of my wish to the kind and hospitable citizens of the last place we visited. Let them have one respected and able leader who is dedicated to the good of all. There will be peace, harmony and co-operation in that blessed community, and it will prosper."
"You have opened my eyes, dear Master," exclaimed Rabbi Joshua.

"Go and teach our brethren the ways of G-d. Let them not be disheartened when they see the wicked prosper, or the righteous suffer. For while man judges by the sight of his eyes, G-d looks into the heart, and He rules the world with justice and mercy. Shalom! Peace be with you."
The next moment Elijah was gone.

zone · Mar 11, 2011

WomanLovesTX said:

yes, that's exactly it. only someone who hates Him would say and teach such things.

i have no clue what that rabbinic story was about.

here's the unpardonable sin, and it is committed today by people who revere and believe and teach what is in the Talmud. pray for those they come in cotact with, tell them the truth.

the Talmud is the written record of the Pharisees' Oral Traditions which Jesus condemned.

The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of "Jesus the Nazarene":

He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).
He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).
He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh—which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

click to read what is really believed about Jesus. then decide if you should be sending your money or blessings to promote that stuff.

tell the truth and pray for people near this to come out of it.
zone.

Who Was Jesus?

Emergence of the Pharisees

The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple. All maintream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.

Pharisees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WomanLovesTX · Mar 11, 2011

Red33 said:

Well said Red.

Zone, the rabbinic story was a thought I had after reading several posts, some addressing you a little harshly and others in a loving way, example Red33. Point is, we do not know what is right or wrong teachings based on our limited view here in this valley. God cannot be fully revealed in this age, thus we cannot know or understand all His ways. My faith is that God is in control over all things at all times for all people of His making.

There are nine fruits of the spirit. So I pray for me and all to function in all 9. God Blesses/God disciplines, and that too is a blessing. Love Peace Joy and so much more.

zone · Mar 11, 2011

WomanLovesTX said:

God's Word is fully Authoritative, and the only source of real Truth.

He has revealed Himself in His Word, and in JESUS CHRIST.

i disagree that we can not know.
we can (and should) know what He has revealed about Himself and His Plan.

endofallfears · Mar 11, 2011

Concerning why Dispensationalism has bee so widely received.

To win any argument you must do two things.
1) Control the definitions
2) Control the method of discovery

Dispensational philosophy has done both (and I have to admire the skill in which it was done even though the results are deplorable.

Example: In controlling the definitions they take the "seven-year period", "the great tribulation", and the "Day of the wrath of God", and combine them into a single definition, the Tribulation. This allows them to take any Scripture using those terms to form their own conclusions.

Example: In controlling the method of discovery, what is not generally shared is the idea that new dispensations set aside previous dispensations. What this does is allow them to apply new methods of interpretation over previous methods. What they often use is Hebrews 1:1-2a, "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son".

Once these mechanisms are put into place, THEN they can claim a "literal" method of interpretation, but without having to harmonize the entirety of Scripture, or conflicting definitions.

Admittedly, other systems use these general methods as well to create their own belief system.

zone · Mar 11, 2011

endofallfears said:

Concerning why Dispensationalism has bee so widely received.

To win any argument you must do two things.
1) Control the definitions
2) Control the method of discovery

Dispensational philosophy has done both (and I have to admire the skill in which it was done even though the results are deplorable).

Example: In controlling the definitions they take the "seven-year period", "the great tribulation", and the "Day of the wrath of God", and combine them into a single definition, the Tribulation. This allows them to take any Scripture using those terms to form their own conclusions.

Example: In controlling the method of discovery, what is not generally shared is the idea that new dispensations set aside previous dispensations. What this does is allow them to apply new methods of interpretation over previous methods. What they often use is Hebrews 1:1-2a, "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son".

Once these mechanisms are put into place, THEN they can claim a "literal" method of interpretation, but without having to harmonize the entirety of Scripture, or conflicting definitions.

Admittedly, other systems use these general methods as well to create their own belief system.

ingenious, huh?

WomanLovesTX · Mar 11, 2011

Zone ,I personally believe that all our presentations of any doctrine or much more to say, personal views can cause some stumbling. I believe that no human can point the finger at the other and just blatantly accuse them of false understanding and that persons doctrines (which do not line up with our own) are of of the devils.

Now that is definitely is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Well, obviuosly the sentencing may be in words but cannot be done in deed for we do not have that power or authority to condemn or judge to damnation. I fear, even this post, or any post of comment to your thread will be "blasted". By lLay down our darts, I believe we can have a mature and logical discussion. What you say?

zone · Mar 11, 2011

WomanLovesTX said:

of course.
there's nothing i'd love more than a mature and logical conversation.

i'm not too interested in our personal musings though unless they're commenting on what The Scriptures say, or are bolstered by essays and articles directly related to the topic.

also not really interested much in the idea that we can't know God's Plan, or that we shouldn't.

the doctrines i'm putting forward are not my own, and certainly not my PERSONAL VIEW. i've said that any number of times, and posted links to the reformers who teach the opposite of dispensationalism, as well as relevent Scriptures that refute it.

this thread is about dispensational theology. (particularly the form that includes pretribulation rapture, though the forms vary).

what are your thoughts on the DISPENSATIONAL model of interpreting the Bible?

zone.

Red33 · Mar 11, 2011

endofallfears said:

Did the 1,000 yr. millennial reign of Christ start at the ascension of Christ or does His 1,000 reign start in the future, following His second coming to earth? Is the 1,000 yrs. a literal time period or something else? Do you also believe that Satan has been bound according to (Rev 20:1-3) or is that also future following the second coming of Christ? The applied hermeneutics is simple, objective and very childlike. Are these tough questions to answer or are confused and double-minded? What hermenutical principle and method are you going to apply to rightly divide the word of truth in these areas?

WomanLovesTX · Mar 11, 2011

zone said:

My thoughts, present "beliefs", (which I am sure dispensationalist will tear apart to shreds, accusing me of false doctrine and of the devil, thus being condemned/judged by men ):

1) God is in control of all things - good and bad (of which bad is good)

2) The Bible must be taken as a whole and not as dispensationists divide OT covenants are abolished (note: not be confused of which only OT sacrifices eneded with Jesus' cruxifiction) and they divide in the NT that Israel is not included, in part or in whole.

3) We know only in part of God's Plan in the fullness of time (end of ages).

4) I see no revelation of rapture, pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib. This view is not definitive, of any, of proving or dis-proving through scriptures - thus, those many taking dogmatic sides, of which is totally futile and a big waste of time and energy.

5) I see no proof that Revelations is for a definiteive date or totally literal. It is impossible to take so much picture painting descriptions and all see it the same way.

6) I don't really give a flip about "the end times" and all this confusion of right doctrine vs wrong doctrine. Stating again, "totally futile and a big waste time and energy".

7) The only right doctrine is Christ/Crucified/Love All as God our Father loves ALL and He has no plans for eternal harm of all or part of His children. His love for all, is without prejudice or exclusion of any.

My beliefs, this not being a complete or unabridged edition. is just that, mine, and I do not hold to tight to it, because God is in control and He holds the compass.

Dispensationalism

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

endofallfears

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member