Dispensationalism

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#61
hi WlTx

My thoughts, present "beliefs", (which I am sure dispensationalist will tear apart to shreds, accusing me of false doctrine and of the devil, thus being condemned/judged by men ):

1) God is in control of all things - good and bad (of which bad is good)

2) The Bible must be taken as a whole and not as dispensationists divide OT covenants are abolished (note: not be confused of which only OT sacrifices eneded with Jesus' cruxifiction) and they divide in the NT that Israel is not included, in part or in whole..
i agree this is a sad error for the jews and one the christians must repair.

3) We know only in part of God's Plan in the fullness of time (end of ages).

4) I see no revelation of rapture, pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib. This view is not definitive, of any, of proving or dis-proving through scriptures - thus, those many taking dogmatic sides, of which is totally futile and a big waste of time and energy. ..
you're right there's no "rapture" as the dispensationalists claim it: what we see is the CHANGE from mortal to immortal for saved people. that CHANGE happens when Christ Comes to Judge.

but: we can absolutely prove that the dispensational model is not only false, it reaches into all other critical doctrines (we just saw that with the bizarre partition between jews and gentiles).

the long and the short of it is, that system is aiding an abetting in the building of Mystery Babylon The Great who will actually persecute us and have us put to death (if God ordains it), as well as scores of others.

5) I see no proof that Revelations is for a definiteive date or totally literal. It is impossible to take so much picture painting descriptions and all see it the same way...
we can know the season based on what has already been fulfilled, and what is happening in the world - unfortunately the dispensational model points christians in exactly the wrong direction.

6) I don't really give a flip about "the end times" and all this confusion of right doctrine vs wrong doctrine. Stating again, "totally futile and a big waste time and energy"....
if that were really true, you won't be trying to get folks to understand your position on universalism.
its just that we all have different callings.

7) The only right doctrine is Christ/Crucified/Love All as God our Father loves ALL and He has no plans for eternal harm of all or part of His children. His love for all, is without prejudice or exclusion of any.
this is true: FOR THOSE UNIFIED IN THE FAITH DELIVERED ONCE FOR ALL TO THE SAINTS.
not all are in that unity.

My beliefs, this not being a complete or unabridged edition. is just that, mine, and I do not hold to tight to it, because God is in control and He holds the compass.
cool.good post
zone
 
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WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
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#62
if that were really true, you won't be trying to get folks to understand your position on universalism.
its just that we all have different callings.

cool.good post
zone
Zone, Absoluely, we all have different callings of gifts of "office/talents" as given by the Spirit, as well as the fruits of the Spirit that abide in perfect harmony with the calling of office.

I think you might be reading something into my "not giving a flip" about end times. I do not give a flip about "end times theology of eschatology". There are so many interpretations of that one issue, that I do see it as a waste of time and energy to put my two cents in. Actually, being funny, how rich would we be if for every view we received 2 cents?
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#63
Oh Yea. Here is a little tidbit. I did an anlysis on the topics that have the most phenomenal views. #1) Eschatology, #2) Trinity, and #3) Truth vs. Error.
 
Feb 9, 2010
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#64
Babylon,the great city,has nothing to do with Israel,but those are Gentile nations.

1The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
3For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
8For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished(Jeremiah 30:1-11).


Here we see all Gentile nations falling and Israel is not falling.Babylon is the Gentile nations,not Israel.All the Gentile nations have not fallen yet,so this is a prophesy to come.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#65
Babylon,the great city,has nothing to do with Israel,but those are Gentile nations.

1The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
3For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
8For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished(Jeremiah 30:1-11).


Here we see all Gentile nations falling and Israel is not falling.Babylon is the Gentile nations,not Israel.All the Gentile nations have not fallen yet,so this is a prophesy to come.

Matt
Jeremiah is talking about ancient Babylon, okay?

look at these Scriptures where God Himself declares JERUSALEM is Mystery Babylon.

it says the same thing in your Bible. if you can read these passages and still deny the woman is Jerusalem, i will apologize.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. << SEE THIS????

Revelation 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 16:9
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Revelation 17:7
And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


you say: Here we see all Gentile nations falling and Israel is not falling.Babylon is the Gentile nations,not Israel.All the Gentile nations have not fallen yet,so this is a prophesy to come

look here:

Revelation 16:9
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

the great city : any reasonable person who can read can see the great city is Jerusalem, right?

that part says the great city was DIVIDED into 3 parts...SHE is : Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city,

here we see the gentile nations fallen: And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell:

2 parts to that sentence. one deals with Jerusalem, the other with the nations. the word nations here is:

&#949;&#952;&#957;&#969;&#957; noun - genitive plural neuter
ethnos eth'-nos: a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan) -- Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

so, i'm sorry but PLEASE! please STOP saying the nations are babylon. God Himself has said that title belongs to apostate Jerusalem. ANYONE should be able to see that, it is in the texts.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#66
The Present Christian Delusion

a doctrine our founders never knew

By Dorothy Anne Seese
Dorothy Anne Seese

This might come as a shock to many serious, Bible-believing Christians, but the doctrine of dispensationalism was totally unknown to the Puritans, Pilgrims, Congregationalists, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and others who were the early religious settlers of our nation. It was unknown to our founding fathers who were Christians. In fact, it was an unknown doctrine until the middle of the 19th century, yet almost all fundamental Christian denominations are espousing this product of John Nelson Darby and Dr. C. I. Scofield.

Basically, the idea that national Israel has a key role in all end times events, that Israel must exist as a nation to bring about the end of this present age and the second advent of Christ comes straight out of the dispensational handbook as written by Dr. Scofield and promulgated by Dallas Theological Seminary. No such ideas ever prevailed in the early Church, the Reformation, or the Christian faith as practiced in the first hundred years of this nation's existence.

Darby's theory of a "secret rapture" of the Church and of the separation of Israel and the Church were treated as oddities in Biblical teaching by his own Plymouth Brethren in England. Prior to that time, established doctrine treated national Israel's mission as bringing forth the Messiah and once that was accomplished, there was nothing more for national Israel to do in the service of the Kingdom of God. The Resurrection of Christ, as explained in the New Testament in detail by the Apostle Paul, had brought forth "one new man" from among Jews and Gentiles, and henceforth the earth consisted of two groups of people, those who were in God's Kingdom (the saved) and those who were not (the lost). Even St. Paul, in Romans, laments the fate of his Jewish brethren for rejecting their Messiah.

What Darby produced was a doctrine of two "second comings" of Christ, one secret for the purpose of "rapturing" the church to heaven prior to the end times, and the second advent at the finale of end times prophecies for the judgment of the world. No hint of any such double advent is given by Jesus in His description of the end times given in Matthew chapter 24 or Luke chapter 21.

From Darby's work, Dr. C. I. Scofield set about to advance his theories and produced an annotated "Scofield Bible of 1909" in which his dispensationalist doctrines, first devised by J. N. Darby, are set forth in the form of notes "explaining" the meaning of various passages of the Bible. For the past seventy years or so, the dispensationalist explanation of the book of Revelation and the 70th week of Daniel have dominated nearly all fundamental Christian denominations. They are, as a rule, rejected wholly by the liturgical churches that retain the Christian faith in its post-Reformation state of believing in the Church as God's people, whether in heaven or on earth (sometimes called the Church Universal), including both Jew and Gentile, and rejecting any role of a national Israel in Bible eschatology (end-time events).
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#67
Strong Delusion



As the rapture doctrine sweeps across America in the most unprecedented fashion in modern history, very few realize that the spiritual trap has been set, the snare has snapped shut, and the prophesied Strong Delusion is already upon us. I'm speaking of the false doctrine of dispensationalism, and the marketing tool of that ungodly system - the pre-tribulation rapture.​

With the release of the Left Behind book and movie series, the Satanic doctrine of demons has now come to fruition and borne the fruit of its devilish design. While most Christians that have been programmed by the rapture cult continue to "heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears" 1. and defend the system because they want it to be true, others simply dismiss the issue as having any importance. `What does it matter?' they reason--`as long as we truly love the Lord, it's just an unimportant issue of timing.'​

The latter group will never know why it matters, because they've already chosen to close their minds to a study of the issue on that basis. The truth is, this issue has enormous implications for the hearts and souls of end time believers. Indeed, I can categorically state that if you continue in the pre-tribulation rapture delusion and refuse to hear the truth of the matter, you are on extremely dangerous ground in your supposed relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ. If you will continue to read this essay, you will hear the truth of the matter.​

Fortunately, a very few courageous souls have taken the Word of God to heart and determined that they will indeed "study to show (themselves) approved." 2


Would I Lie To You?

One of the difficulties in arriving at the truth of this matter is the way in which we perceive the vessel that brings us the information. For instance, I just cited scripture that speaks of those that have "itching ears" and how they will seek to validate their existing belief by surrounding themselves with teachers that will tell them what they want to hear. That very verse categorically proves that there are "teachers" within the "church" that are, indeed willing to lie in order to preserve their position.​

If you are a believer in the pre-tribulation rapture, I also intentionally insulted you by referring to "the rapture cult." While rapturists find the term offensive and routinely suggest we should be more loving and diplomatic, they simply do not understand the present situation. The Lord led me to dub the doctrine as cultic. If I've upset you with that characterization, I do not apologize. What I'm trying to do is get your attention. If I've angered you, I have a better chance of breaking through the conditioning so that you will listen to the warning that I have for all pre-tribulationists. That warning is very simple. You are in deadly peril.​


 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#68
The Obituary of Dispensationalism



by Vic Reasoner

In 1830 Margaret MacDonald had a vision about the end of the world and when she came out from under her trance, she wrote it down. This account attracted the attention of Edward Irving and his church later claimed Margaret has one of their own prophetesses. Irving is regarded as the forerunner of the charismatic movement because of his emphasis on healing and tongues. Irving also had an interest in prophecy and held prophetic conferences. The historian of Irving's church claimed that Margaret was the first person to teach a two stage second coming of Christ.

The Birth of Dispensationalism

John Darby traveled to Scotland to visit the MacDonald home. Darby was a lawyer until a year after his conversion when he was ordained a deacon in the Church of England. Soon after entering the ministry he became disillusioned with the institutional church and started the Brethren movement in Plymouth, England. Darby became known as the father of dispensationalism, the first eschatology to incorporate the "prophecy" of Margaret MacDonald. Darby continued to develop this new view by becoming the first to make a radical distinction between Israel and the Church. Darby taught that God has two special groups of people (or two brides) and a separate plan for each of them. This meant Christ would have to return twice.

Darby had a pessimistic view of the Church, teaching that it would end in apostasy. Only a remnant would be secretly raptured out (namely those who followed Darby). Of course, this secret rapture was so secret that no one had ever heard of it for 1800 years! The Church was a parenthesis in God's original plan because of the supposed failure of Christ to set up His kingdom while He was on earth. When He comes again to set up the kingdom, for some strange reason, the temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices re-instituted. By the time Darby had finished dividing the Word of Truth there were seven dispensations, five judgments, two brides, two new covenants, two kingdoms, two advents, two resurrections, a 2000 year gap in Daniel's seventy weeks, and eight separate Plymouth Brethren denominations.

AgainstDispensationalism.com: The Obituary of Dispensationalism
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#69
The Birth of Dispensationalism

John Darby traveled to Scotland to visit the MacDonald home. Darby was a lawyer until a year after his conversion when he was ordained a deacon in the Church of England. Soon after entering the ministry he became disillusioned with the institutional church and started the Brethren movement in Plymouth, England. Darby became known as the father of dispensationalism, the first eschatology to incorporate the "prophecy" of Margaret MacDonald. Darby continued to develop this new view by becoming the first to make a radical distinction between Israel and the Church. Darby taught that God has two special groups of people (or two brides) and a separate plan for each of them. This meant Christ would have to return twice.

Darby had a pessimistic view of the Church, teaching that it would end in apostasy. Only a remnant would be secretly raptured out (namely those who followed Darby). Of course, this secret rapture was so secret that no one had ever heard of it for 1800 years! The Church was a parenthesis in God's original plan because of the supposed failure of Christ to set up His kingdom while He was on earth. When He comes again to set up the kingdom, for some strange reason, the temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices re-instituted. By the time Darby had finished dividing the Word of Truth there were seven dispensations, five judgments, two brides, two new covenants, two kingdoms, two advents, two resurrections, a 2000 year gap in Daniel's seventy weeks, and eight separate Plymouth Brethren denominations
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#70
The Influence of Dispensationalism

Darby made eight trips to America to promote his new teaching. Daniel Steele interviewed him and was not impressed. As Darby tried to distinguish between all the judgments, Steele was so amused that he could hardly keep from laughing in his face. Steele wrote, "May I never see another man, manifestly of so great genius and learning, compelled to crawl through orifices so small." It is an irony of history that the holiness movement canonized Daniel Steele, but adopted the teachings of John Darby!

While other dispensational scholars find as few as three dispensations or as many as eight, Scripture never uses the word "dispensation" to refer to a period of time. It is made up of two words: "house" and "law" meaning management or administration. When C. I. Scofield, a converted lawyer, visited at the prophetic conferences he did not have the theological background to properly evaluate Darby's teaching. He was indoctrinated and in 1909 first published his reference Bible. This book did more than anything else to make Darby's teachings popular in America.

Dispensationalism also infiltrated the American church through the rise of the Bible School movement. As early as the 1930's dispensationalism was firmly established as a foundational doctrine in most of the new schools. In time a minister was not considered orthodox unless he adhered to this new doctrine. It is another irony of history that dispensationalists would be intolerant of anyone who held one of the major historic views taught for nearly 1900 years. No real Wesleyan scholar has ever subscribed to dispensationalism because they recognized that is was based on Darby's own Calvinistic presuppositions. However, genuine calvinists also reject Darby's conclusions as "watering down Biblical Calvinism."

As early as 1887 Daniel Steele recognized that dispensationalism belittled the Christian agencies in operation by asserting that they were inadequate to convert the world. He feared the system would end in embarrassment just as it happened to William Miller and the Seventh Day Adventist movement who first said that the Lord would return in 1843, then 1844. Steele warned that the attention of the Church would be diverted from evangelism to speculation.

The rapture came to be anticipated as an escape from responsibility. At the turn of the 20th century there was a move to finish the task of world evangelism, but dispensationalism shifted the emphasis away from social responsibility to that of rescuing the souls of a few before they were out of time. Never in the history of the Church has so large a percentage of professed Christians had so little influence. The Roman Empire caved in to Christian influence when only 10% of the population was Christian. Today 34% claim to be born again.

The history of dispensationalism's negative influence is traced in Less Than Conquerors with Douglas W. Frank concluding, "The appeal of dispensationalism might well wane, with post millennial optimism taking its place." The Church has only recently gained some of the earlier momentum and emphasis on world evangelism. Of course, this, too, must be interpreted by dispensationalists as a delusion since the Church is in ruin. Darby declared that "the yearbooks of history are the yearbooks of hell." Much later Lewis Sperry Chafer wrote in his eight volume magnum opus of dispensational theology that God gave us no commission to convert the world and "enterprises based on that sort of idealism are without His authority."


 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#71
Decline of Dispensationalism

False prophets attempting to predict the outcome of both world wars hurt dispensationalism's credibility. They were always confident that Bible prophecy was being fulfilled right before their eyes, but the subsequent events always forced them to continually re-evaluate what was being fulfilled. Bible scholars had either grown silent or abandoned the viewpoint after the mid 1960s. Then there was a revival of interest when Hal Lindsey published the best selling book of the 1970s: The Late Great Planet Earth. In it Lindsey declared that "no self-respecting scholar who looks at world conditions and the accelerating decline of Christian influence today is a post-millennialist." Lindsey wold have saved himself much embarrassment if he had interpreted world conditions in light of Scripture, instead of trying to read into Scripture his understanding of current events. Lindsey helped bury dispensationalism with his unfulfilled predictions and there were plenty of post-millennialists around to attend the funeral!

The decade of the 1980s came and went without any armageddon despite Lindsey's forecast in The 1980's: Countdown to Armageddon. It was not The Terminal Generation. Getting married three times did not help his credibility either. Scofield also had to cover over the fact he had deserted his first wife and children.

With the establishment of Israel as a nation on May 14, 1948, dispensationalists taught that there would be only one more generation of the Church. God would rapture it out and the tribulation would begin, according to their view of Matthew 24:34. All this was to occur within one forty year "generation." While dispensationalists have never agreed among themselves as to whether the rapture was to be partial, pre-tribulational, mid-trib, or post-trib, time has proven them all to be wrong. The year 1988 ended with an awkward silence from their scholars. If Israel is "God's prophetic clock," then dispensationalists do not know how to tell time.

Dispensationalists tried hard to hang on to life with such sensational attempts as UFO's and the rapture, studies of Egyptian pyramids, the alignments of the planets, hidden messages in the Psalms, a revival of the old Roman Empire, 666 on Social Security checks, 666 on the Universal Products Code, or 666 on anything! Edgar Whisenant was the latest to play the dating game. He sold 4.5 million copies of a book proving the Lord would return between September 11-13, 1988. He later updated it to October 3, then January, 1989, and finally to September 1, 1989. He finally admitted, "I guess God doesn't always do things the way man thinks he will." Constance Cumbey had earlier given up a seven year effort to expose a conspiracy to introduce the Anti-Christ. At one point she claimed it might even be Pat Robertson. She return to practicing law (too bad Darby and Scofield didn't). No wonder several dispensational seminaries moved away from their earlier positions altogether.


 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#72
THE SCOFIELD BIBLE
and
DISPENSATIONALISM

1. The Seven Dispensations
Dr. Scofield defines a dispensation as a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God. He teaches in the Scofield Bible that there are Seven Dispensations: (1) The Dispensation of Innocency: before the Fall; (2) The Dispensation of Conscience: before the Flood; (3) The Dispensation of Human Government; (4) The Dispensation of Promise: from the calling of Abraham until Mt. Sinai; (5) The Dispensation of the Law: from Mt. Sinai to the cross of Christ; (6) The Dispensation of Grace: from the cross of Christ to the Second Advent; (7) The Dispensation of the Kingdom: the Millennium.

"These dispensations are regarded not as stages in one single organic development, but as distinct and mutually exclusive, or even as opposed to each other. This practice of dividing the Bible into parts, and setting one part against the others, means for instance, that in the Dispensation of the Law there was no grace, and during the Dispensation of Grace there is no law. The plan of salvation as set forth in the Bible is one organic whole, revealing a marvellous and profound unity. It cannot be split up into contradictory parts, much less into seven mutually exclusive dispensations." (Summarised quotation from The Millennium by Boettner).

In connection with the Dispensation of Conscience, Scofield says, "Expelled from Eden - man was responsible to do all known good, and to abstain from all known evil, and to approach God through sacrifice - - - the dispensation ended in the judgment of the flood." "Ended" — what ended ? asks Professor Albertus Pieters in his Candid Examination of the Scofield Bible. "The responsibility of every man to do all known good, and to abstain from all known evil ? Certainly not, that abides today. The responsibility to approach God through sacrifice? That command continued until the final sacrifice of Christ. The operation of conscience in the heart of man? By no means. St. Paul refers to it as operative in his day and there has been no change since."

In connection with the "Dispensation of Promise" we are told that it ended with the giving of the Law upon Mt. Sinai. "Again we ask," continues Prof. Pieters, "In what sense did it end then? and again we get no intelligible reply. Was the promise revoked? It was not. St. Paul tells that the giving of the Law had no such effect. "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." (Gal. 3:17).

"The entire ‘dispensational scheme,’ therefore," concludes Prof. Pieters, "when subjected to examination in the light of Holy Scripture, breaks down completely — yet it is accepted by multitudes today as the undoubted teaching of the Bible, because Scofield says so."

Some dispensationalists hold that the sermon on the Mount and most of the Gospels belong to the Kingdom Dispensation which is yet future. The Book of Revelation after the third chapter also is said to belong to the future. Thus only part of the Gospels and the Pauline Epistles are said to be intended for the Christians of today.

The slogan of Dispensationalists is "rightly dividing the word of truth." But as one writer, Dr. Murray quoted by Boettner, puts it, "Dividing the plan of salvation into dispensations, is not rightly dividing the word of truth, but wrongly dividing the Word of God."
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#73
2. Dispensationalism and the Church
In its doctrine of the Church, Dispensationalism holds that the Jewish rejection of the kingdom caused Jesus to postpone the kingdom until the Second Advent, and to establish the church as an interlude between the two advents. They hold that the church is in no sense a fulfillment of the Old Testament but something entirely new and revealed for the first time to the Apostle Paul and that the Church Age will come to an end in the Rapture which it is alleged, is the first stage of the Second Advent.

Following the Rapture, Christ and His people are to be in the air for a period of seven years (the seventieth week, according to Dispensationalism, of Daniel&#8217;s prophecy). At the end of the seven years there occurs the Revelation, which is the public visible return of Christ and His people to the earth.

The key text on which this view of the church is based is Ephesians 3:3-7. As to the "mystery" mentioned by Paul in these verses, it is the mystery which was not revealed as it is now to the apostles, that the Gentiles were to be partakers of the same spiritual blessings as the converted Jews. The "mystery" that Paul speaks of was not completely unknown in Old Testament times, but was not so well known as it is now.

It was not unknown to Abraham for the promise given to him was that "in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." The Lord revealed that Christ was to be given as a light to the Gentiles and His salvation to the ends of the earth. The emphasis in the passage in Ephesians must be laid on the word as. The mystery was not formerly revealed as, that is not so fully or so clearly as under the Gospel. Stephen before his martyrdom spoke of Christ as being with "the church in the wilderness." (Acts 7:38). The Lord had a church in the world since He revealed Himself in His mercy and grace after the Fall.

In regard to the meaning of the Greek word ekklesia translated &#8216;church&#8217; it is well to keep in mind that in the Septuagint, which was a Greek translation of the Old Testament and which was in common use in Palestine in Jesus&#8217; day, the word ekklesia is used about 70 times to render the Hebrew word qahal, assembly or congregation. This translation was made in Alexandria, Egypt, about 150 B.C., by a group of 70 scholars, whence it received its name.

Consequently the Jewish people would have connected the New Testament Church with the assembly or congregation of Israel as it had existed in Old Testament times - - - - The glory of the Church under the New Testament dispensation is far greater than it was under the old. But regardless of the differences the church in the new dispensation is the continuation of that in the old, so that we who are Gentiles are, as Paul tells us, "no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph. 2:19-22)" (The Millennium by L. Boettner).

"Another serious defect in dispensational teaching is its doctrine that many portions of the Bible are not meant for the Church age at all, that is, not for Christians, but that they are intended for a future Jewish-led kingdom. This follows from their belief that most of Christ&#8217;s ministry was taken up with preaching designed to prepare Israel for the Kingdom, but that when it became evident that the Jews would not accept the Kingdom the Church was substituted. This means that the Lord&#8217;s prayer, the Sermon on the Mount, the Kingdom parables, the Great Tribulation, the Book of Revelation chapters 4 to 19, and some say, most of the New Testament except the Pauline Epistles, are "Jewish" and "legal" and therefore do not concern the Church.

We point out, however, that Paul certainly did not make this distinction between the gospel of Grace and the gospel of the Kingdom of God. Rather, he identified the two, for late in his ministry he said to the elders from Ephesus: "Neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more." (Acts 20:24, 25) (The Millennium pp. 244-245 by L. Boettner).

Dr. H. A. Ironside, a dispensationalist and an ardent disciple of Scofield, acknowledges that the dispensational doctrine of the Church is of comparatively recent origin and that it was brought to the fore through the writings of Mr. J. N. Darby, the leader of the &#8216;Plymouth Brethren,&#8217; who died in 1882.

When George Muller of Bristol came up against the Dispensationalist doctrines of the Brethren movement, he severed all connection with it. "The time came," he said, when I had either to part from my Bible or part from John Darby. I chose to keep my precious Bible and part from John Darby."

Dispensationalists lay special claim to "rightly dividing the word of truth." The above is instead a confounding of it, a darkening of it by a new-fangled exegesis which is alien to it.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#74
3. Dispensationalism and the Rapture

The Secret Rapture Theory based on I Thessalonians 4:13-17 teaches according to Dispensationalism that Christ will descend from heaven to "the air" raise the righteous dead and translate the living saints who will be caught away to remain with Christ for a period of seven years in the air. Of the so-called secret Rapture which is silent and mysterious, neither the waiting people nor the world is to have a moment’s warning, the saints being first apprised of it by their heavenly flight, and the world by the departure of the "missing ones." A leading Dispensationalist describes it in this way: "Imagine getting up some morning and your wife is not there, and you call for her, but there is no answer. You go downstairs, but she is not there. You call upstairs to daughter asking where mother is, but no answer from daughter. Daughter too is gone. You ring the police but the line is busy.

Hundreds and thousands are calling up, jamming the telephone lines. You rush out of doors and bump into the pal of last night’s wild party. He is white as a sheet. He is out of breath, and he stammers a few words, and bawls out, ‘My wife is gone. My brother is gone, and I don’t know where they are.’ Down the streets runs a woman shrieking at the top of her voice, ‘Someone has kidnapped my baby!’ and in a moment the streets are full of people, weeping, crying and howling over the disappearance of loved ones. What has happened? The Lord has come, like a thief in the night. He has quietly stolen away those who trusted him, like Enoch, and no one is left behind to warn you any more, to pray or show you the way." (Rev. Richard W. De-Haan, Radio Bible Class, Nov. 1954). (Quoted in The Millennium p. 172).

Dispensationalists make unwarranted distinctions between the words Coming (parousia), the Appearing (Epiphany) and the Revelation (Apocalypse). All these words have essentially the same meaning. They are kindred terms to describe one great future event, the second coming of Christ at the last day and are used interchangeably.

"That the Rapture is not a secret event is evident from I Thess. 4:15-18. "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (go before) them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL and with the TRUMP OF GOD; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

If anyone can make a secret coming out of this Scripture, language has no significance at all. There is no secrecy here! It is open, visible, audible; yet it is Christ’s parousia, His coming FOR His saints and not a subsequent epiphany.

The Parousia, the Epiphania, the Apokalipsis, the End, all synchronise at one great crisis "at the last day."The shout, the voice of the archangel, the sound of the great trumpet, the quaking earth, the passing away of the heavens "with a great noise" (2 Peter 3:4, 12), the resurrection and translation of saints, the destruction of sinners will attend the coming (Parousia) of the Son of Man.

From all the foregoing considerations, the "secret rapture theory" must be respected as one of the most glaring of errors, and it is one that has already wrought much mischief. "Let no man deceive you." If they say, Behold he is in the secret chambers, BELIEVE IT NOT!" (Will the Secret Rapture Precede the Second Coming of Christ? by Dr. G. B. Fletcher).
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#75
4. Dispensationalism and the 70th Week of Daniel’s Prophecy

Dispensationalists hold that after the secret Rapture, the saints will be with Christ in the sky for seven years. At the end of this period He shall return visibly with His saints to the earth (commonly called the Revelation). "This theory," writes Dr. Fletcher, "is a perversion of Second Coming truth, a delusion of the last days, widely held. Nowhere does the New Testament teach two future comings of Christ, first for His saints, and then with His saints. Those who hold this view seek to harmonise it with the New Testament teaching on the Second Coming of Christ by asserting that the coming for and with His saints several years later are not two comings, but two stages of the Second Coming of Christ. This attempt to justify the theory cannot overthrow the testimony of the senses that the coming for the saints is a FIRST second coming, and the subsequent coming with the saints is a SECOND coming. But this cannot be. He came once, and He will come once more — and only once more: ‘the second time without sin unto salvation’ (Heb. 9: 28)."

If it be asked, where in Scripture is there authority for a seven year period such as Dispensationalism sets forth as elapsing between the Rapture and the Revelation, the answer must be: there is none. It is a period of time imported by inference from Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks, it being assumed that the 70th week has not yet been fulfilled, that it is the 7th week or the seven years between the Rapture and the Revelation and that during that time a number of predicted events — such as the apostasy, the appearance and reign of the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, the return of the Jews to Palestine and their conversion are to occur.

"But there are no grounds" writes Dr. Boettner "either in reason or in Scripture for inserting a parenthesis of many centuries duration between the 69th and the 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy, a parenthesis which strangely has already extended nearly four times as long as the entire period of the 70 weeks themselves. In this prophecy it is quite evident that the weeks refer to years. The Jews had just completed 70 years captivity in Babylon — years that had run consecutively. Daniel understood from the prophecies that the time was at an end, and he besought God earnestly in prayer for their deliverance. It was revealed to him that 7 times 70 were determined to complete God’s dealings with Israel as a nation — for their return to their own land, the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple, and until Messiah should come and accomplish His work of redemption.

Certainly the natural inference is that in this prophecy time runs concurrently as it does in any other prophecy. Nowhere in Scripture is a specified number of time-units, making up a described period of time set forth as meaning anything but continuous and consecutive time. Likewise the 70 weeks in Daniel’s prophecy are 70 links in a chain, each holding to the others, a definite measure of the remaining time allotted to the nation of Israel before the coming of the Messiah.

The correct interpretation of Daniel’s prophecy is, we believe, that the events of the 70th week were fulfilled during the public ministry of Christ in Palestine including the completion and abolition of the Old Covenant. After a further period of grace, some 37 years later, the final break-up of the Jewish economy came with the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem and the final dispersion of the Jews."

The Scofield Bible, Dispensationalism and the Salvation of the Jews
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#76
Matt
Jeremiah is talking about ancient Babylon, okay?

look at these Scriptures where God Himself declares JERUSALEM is Mystery Babylon.

it says the same thing in your Bible. if you can read these passages and still deny the woman is Jerusalem, i will apologize.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. << SEE THIS????

Revelation 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 16:9
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Revelation 17:7
And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


you say: Here we see all Gentile nations falling and Israel is not falling.Babylon is the Gentile nations,not Israel.All the Gentile nations have not fallen yet,so this is a prophesy to come

look here:

Revelation 16:9
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

the great city : any reasonable person who can read can see the great city is Jerusalem, right?

that part says the great city was DIVIDED into 3 parts...SHE is : Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city,

here we see the gentile nations fallen: And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell:

2 parts to that sentence. one deals with Jerusalem, the other with the nations. the word nations here is:

&#949;&#952;&#957;&#969;&#957; noun - genitive plural neuter
ethnos eth'-nos: a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan) -- Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

so, i'm sorry but PLEASE! please STOP saying the nations are babylon. God Himself has said that title belongs to apostate Jerusalem. ANYONE should be able to see that, it is in the texts.
We did a Beth Moore bible study and I always thought Babylon referred to the materalisitic worldly culture that is representative of the rest of the world that wants to forget about God. I thought it referred to a concept more then a location. However the end of the Book of Daniel did speak about how the abomination would be placed in Jereuselum and the king would worship a god of Fortress during the time before the Day of Judgement. I don't know, does it really matter?

I'm more concerned how this idealogy influence our foreign policy and why Israel is being supported and allowed to annex Palestine and commit great crimes against its people. What does the Bible tell us to think about the Middle East situation and don't tell me that God isn't interested in the politics and affairs of this world. it says that nations rise and fall according to the commands of God. So we are watching right now the rise and fall of nations, what is really happening from a Biblically based standpoint?

The Bible talks about earthquakes and giant waves too. i'd have to check my notes but I can find the Bible passages if you want. I just wanted to know what everyone thinks about what is happening and what you think God would want us to do about it all?

It all started because a man set himself on fire because the Tunisia government confiscated his livelihood: a fruit stand. that was the spark that ignited the revolt.

Human rights? the rise of the Muslim brotherhood? anti semitic anti israel feelings? Anti christian feelings?

just wondering if anyone is paying attention to the world. I think we all need to pray, my heart is troubled by what is shaping up in that region.
 
E

endofallfears

Guest
#77
Did the 1,000 yr. millennial reign of Christ start at the ascension of Christ or does His 1,000 reign start in the future, following His second coming to earth? Is the 1,000 yrs. a literal time period or something else? Do you also believe that Satan has been bound according to (Rev 20:1-3) or is that also future following the second coming of Christ? The applied hermeneutics is simple, objective and very childlike. Are these tough questions to answer or are confused and double-minded? What hermenutical principle and method are you going to apply to rightly divide the word of truth in these areas?
While I have several problems with Dispensationalism, the issue of a real 1000 year period of Christ reigning on the Earth isn't one of them, although if you follow Dispensationalism to it's conclusion, there are THREE advents (although Biblical description of the Rapture makes it an advent, dispensationalist scholars say it isn't without reasonable explanation).

My hermaneutic is indeed literal, with allowance for allegory and symbolism when implied or directed contextually (no arbitrary spiritualization), or shaping meaning to fit a philosophy, but most important, I require complete harmonization of all Scripture, so as you can imagine, my conclusions don't fit most preconceived ideas of the end-times.

I decided to dig, knowing it would get messy.
 
Last edited:
Jun 24, 2010
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#78
While I have several problems with Dispensationalism, the issue of a real 1000 year period of Christ reigning on the Earth isn't one of them, although if you follow Dispensationalism to it's conclusion, there are THREE advents (although Biblical description of the Rapture makes it an advent, dispensationalist scholars say it isn't without reasonable explanation).

My hermaneutic is indeed literal, with allowance for allegory and symbolism when implied or directed contextually (no arbitrary spiritualization), or shaping meaning to fit a philosophy, but most important, I require complete harmonization of all Scripture, so as you can imagine, my conclusions don't fit most preconceived ideas of the end-times.

I decided to dig, knowing it would get messy.
By all means keep digging, but don't come to premature conclusions until you have completed your digging site and get a response from above (Hos 10:12, Heb 5:13).
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#79
While I have several problems with Dispensationalism, the issue of a real 1000 year period of Christ reigning on the Earth isn't one of them, although if you follow Dispensationalism to it's conclusion, there are THREE advents (although Biblical description of the Rapture makes it an advent, dispensationalist scholars say it isn't without reasonable explanation).

My hermaneutic is indeed literal, with allowance for allegory and symbolism when implied or directed contextually (no arbitrary spiritualization), or shaping meaning to fit a philosophy, but most important, I require complete harmonization of all Scripture, so as you can imagine, my conclusions don't fit most preconceived ideas of the end-times.

I decided to dig, knowing it would get messy.
:D

 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#80
While I have several problems with Dispensationalism, the issue of a real 1000 year period of Christ reigning on the Earth isn't one of them, although if you follow Dispensationalism to it's conclusion, there are THREE advents (although Biblical description of the Rapture makes it an advent, dispensationalist scholars say it isn't without reasonable explanation).

My hermaneutic is indeed literal, with allowance for allegory and symbolism when implied or directed contextually (no arbitrary spiritualization), or shaping meaning to fit a philosophy, but most important, I require complete harmonization of all Scripture, so as you can imagine, my conclusions don't fit most preconceived ideas of the end-times.

I decided to dig, knowing it would get messy.
Do you disagree with those that believe that Satan has been bound according to (Rev 20:1-3) since the ascension of Christ? Do you also disagree with those that contend that we are presently living in the 1,000 yr. millennial reign of Christ, making that 1,000 yr. reign as symbolic and not literal? Do you also disagree with those that contend that there is only ONE battle testified in scriptures that happens from the time of the ascension of Christ to the end of the 1,000 yr. reign of Christ just prior to the new heaven and new earth? In your studies of these events that take place, when does the church (God's called out ones), both those that are alive and are fallen asleep (dead), get caught up to meet the Lord in the air and forever to be with the Lord according to (1Th 4:17)...

...is it before, during or at the end of the 1,000 yr. reign of Christ?