Disproving Biblical Infallibility 101

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slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
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#41
Even a cursory reading of Matthew, Mark, and Luke reveals both striking similarities [2:3-12; Matt. 9:2-8; Luke 5:18-26] and significant differences, as each view the life, ministry, and teaching of Jesus. The question of how to explain those similarities and differences is known as the "Synoptic Problem" or translated means :"Together -seeing."

You can look up this subject that would help, but the modern solution- even among evangelicals--has been to assume that some form of literary dependence exists between the synoptic gospels. The most commonly accepted theory to explain such an alleged literary dependence is known as the "Two-Source" theory. According to that hypothesis, Mark was the first gospel written, and Matthew and Luke then used Mark as a source in writing their gospels. Proponents of this view, however, imagine a nonexistent, second source, labeled "Q" [from the German word "Quelle"], and argue that this allegedly is the source of the material in Mathew and Luke that does not appear in Mark. They advance several lines of evidence to support their scenario.

First, most of Mark is parallel in Matthew and Luke. Since it is much shorter than Matthew and Luke, the Latter must be expansions of Mark. Second, the 3 gospels follow the same general chronological outline, but when either Matthew or Luke departs from Mark's chronology, the other agrees with Mark. Put another way, Matthew and Luke do not both depart from Mark's chronology in the same places. That, it is argued, shows that Matthew and Luke used Mark for their historical framework. Third, in passages common to all 3 gospels, Matthew's and Luke's wording seldom agrees when it differs from Mark's. Proponents of the "Two-Source" theory see that as confirmation that Matthew and Luke used Mark's gospel as a source.

But those arguments do not prove that Matthew and Luke used Mark's gospels as a source. In fact, the weight of evidence is strongly against such a theory. I could pull those facts up I have looked at over time but the answers are also in the internet searches I'm sure.

The simplest solution to the Synoptic Problem from my research is that no such problem exists! Because critics cannot prove literary dependence between the gospel writers, there is no need to explain it. The traditional view that the gospel writers were inspired by God and wrote independently of each other--except that all 3 were moved by the same Spirit; the Holy Spirit. [ 2 Peter 1:20].--remains the only plausible view.

As you compare the various viewpoints in the gospels; Mark: "Slave Savior"...John: "God-Savior"...Matthew: "King-Savior"....Luke: "Man- Savior"...It becomes clear how well they harmonize and lead to a more complete picture of the whole event or message. The accounts are not contradictory, but complimentary, revealing a fuller understanding when brought together. The apparent difficulties are dealt with in the notes of each gospel.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#42
But the whole Bible is supposed to be inspired and without error. If the resurrection account can be filled with mistakes due to whoever is reporting what they thought, then the rest of scripture must be so.
It is not supposed to be like other events in life where there are differences in which facts are recalled.
Says who?

Details mentioned by one and not another do not make accounts "different" unless they are contradictory, which none of them are in the resurrection accounts.

This is supposed to be what the Holy Spirit is inspiring them to write
Would he ever inspire them to write what they saw, pointing out different details for a fuller account?

so the OP is correct.

This is not to deny anything about the truth of miraculous happenings, just to say that every word of scripture is not from the pen of God as it were, but from men who get facts and order of events wrong at times.
Nope. . .rather foggy reasoning.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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#43
But the whole Bible is supposed to be inspired and without error. If the resurrection account can be filled with mistakes due to whoever is reporting what they thought, then the rest of scripture must be so.
It is not supposed to be like other events in life where there are differences in which facts are recalled.
Says who?

Details mentioned by one and not another do not make accounts "different" unless they are contradictory, which none of them are in the resurrection accounts.

This is supposed to be what the Holy Spirit is inspiring them to write
Would he ever inspire them to write what they saw, pointing out different details for a fuller account?

so the OP is correct.

This is not to deny anything about the truth of miraculous happenings, just to say that every word of
scripture is not from the pen of God as it were, but
from men who get facts and order of events wrong at times.
Nope. . .rather foggy reasoning.
 
Last edited:
Jun 21, 2015
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#44
If I can't trust one word in my Bible, what makes me trust the rest of it? This type of wrong thinking that you cannot trust every Word of God in your Bible is just a person wanting to doubt God's Word. You either believe all of it or you don't. God's Word is not something we get to pick and choose in what we want to believe in. This is how Biblical cults are formed. For it takes faith to believe in all of God's Word. Whatever you choose not to believe in Scripnture, the seed of the Word will not find it's place in your heart so as to produce fruit.
Jason, how am i thinking wrongly if i am using scripture to backbup what i say?? It is apparent that we CANNOT trust the resurrection account narratives- there are 4 gospels, each having its own sequence of events for that morning...it is not our fault the bible has contrary statements within its pages, yet we have to accept that it does. It in no way alters our faith- we believe but we cannot 100% say that any scripture other than Jesus born died and resurrected, is doctrinally sound!? We cannot say that anything contained within the scripture supposedly written by Paul, is 100A% truely what he said- for Christs sake, we do not even have the original letters penned by this man- merely 3rd century copies!
 

slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
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#45
Ok, fine I will share my notes.....I was trying to avoid this but hey anything for the kingdom right?!! Right!!

1]. The nearly unanimous testimony of the church until the nineteenth century was that Matthew was the first gospel written. Such an impressive body of evidence cannot be ignored.

2]. Why would Matthew, an apostle and eyewitness to the events of Christ's life, depend on Mark[who was not an eye-witness]--even for the account of his own conversion?

3]. A significant statistical analysis of the synoptic gospels has revealed that the parallels between them are far less extensive and the differences more significant than is commonly acknowledged. The differences, in particular, argue against literary dependence between the gospel writer's.

4]. Since the gospels record actual historical events, it would be surprising if they did not follow the same general historical sequence. For example, the fact that 3 books on American history all had the Revolutionary war, the Civil War, World War I, II, the Vietnam War, and the Gulf War in the same chronological order would not prove that the authors had read each others books. General agreement in content does not prove literary dependency.

5]. The passages in which Matthew and Luke agree against Mark [see argument 3 in favor of the "Two-Source" theory] amount to about one-sixth of Mathew and one-sixth of Luke. If they used Mark's gospel as a source, there is no satisfactory explanation for why Matthew and Luke would so often both change Mark's wording in the same way.

6]. The "Two-Source" theory cannot account for the important section in Mark's gospel [6:45; 8:26], which Luke omits. That omission suggests Luke had not seen Mark's gospel when he wrote.

7]. There is no historical or manuscript evidence that the "Q" document ever existed; it is purely a fabrication of modern skepticism and the way to possibly deny the verbal inspiration of the gospels.

8]. Any theory of Literary dependence between the gospel writers overlooks the significants of their personal contacts of each other. Mark and Luke were both companions of Paul, the early church [including Matthew] met for a time in the home of Mark's mother [Acts 12:12]; and Luke could easily have met Matthew during Paul's two-year imprisonment at Caesarea. Such contacts make theories of mutual literary dependence unnecessary.
 

slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
6,307
1,098
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#46
Jason, how am i thinking wrongly if i am using scripture to backbup what i say?? It is apparent that we CANNOT trust the resurrection account narratives- there are 4 gospels, each having its own sequence of events for that morning...it is not our fault the bible has contrary statements within its pages, yet we have to accept that it does. It in no way alters our faith- we believe but we cannot 100% say that any scripture other than Jesus born died and resurrected, is doctrinally sound!? We cannot say that anything contained within the scripture supposedly written by Paul, is 100A% truely what he said- for Christs sake, we do not even have the original letters penned by this man- merely 3rd century copies!
Why do you bring God down to mans arguments? Is it not plain in scripture that they are God breathed? It becomes a matter of faith from that point. Or we can scrutinize the theory that mans flaws out weighs God intercessory abilities. Did not God know of the men He chose to write His book? If he formed the universe could He Himself not simply written the book Himself, yet He says He has done just that. To second guess that is to bring God down to us and not lift ourselves to God by His promises.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#47
Correct. You stated worse than that. You stated, "The foundation of MOST doctrine is now shaky at best...."

People are people, and if thousands witnessed a miracle you'd have thousands of different accounts.

Since you've asked this question before and still aren't satisfied with the answers given, then go straight to the source and talk with God about the infallibility of Scripture.
Actually, I've read the Bible often and now study it. There's a lot more to the resurrection scene than most notice, even PAG. Even you. Put the four accounts together and see how they differ. Unless you can get someone who really can put all the pieces together, you're not going to get it. PAG didn't even noticed he missed other questions that ought to be asked too.

And the proof is everyone has a theory here, yet no one answered the question directly. You just passed it off to Marc, and Marc just explained one small part of one account.

So really? Many times I ask questions on here and don't get clear answers. Most people just give opinions. So, nothing wrong with asking more than once. And nothing wrong with answering only if you have a real answer.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#48
Four first hand accounts by men who were there and now you want to quibble over the differences in their accounts? Enjoy and relish the differences and the richness it adds to the accounts. Not copies with machinelike precision but human accounts from men in the presence of God Almighty.

Only God can make all the snowflakes the same yet different and unique. Just like He made you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Four accounts of what happened there, and only one man was first hand. I think God's word is worth studying. You?
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#49
But the whole Bible is supposed to be inspired and without error. If the resurrection account can be filled with mistakes due to whoever is reporting what they thought, then the rest of scripture must be so. It is not supposed to be like other events in life where there are differences in which facts are recalled. This is supposed to be what the Holy Spirit is inspiring them to write so the OP is correct.

This is not to deny anything about the truth of miraculous happenings, just to say that every word of scripture is not from the pen of God as it were, but from men who get facts and order of events wrong at times.
Not even close to truth, but it does explain how you can distort what is in the Bible.
 
May 3, 2013
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#50
"Gen 6:7 And Jehovah said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the ground; both man, and beast, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; for it repenteth me that I have made them. "

I do believe He repents of other ppl having lied...

and of having a Golem those things men have done "believed" lies.

If the Almighty addmitted having done something wrong, I have to admit we men are also fallible.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#51
He spells out the root word descended. He fails to pay attention to the other complete details that in no way agree. There is more to what we are talking about than the angel "descending", ie...when he spoke, the location from which he spoke, the time frame in which he spoke, and the whole slew of details mentioned in the OP.
Okay? So what do you think of what Boice had to say? Cool, huh?

Or are you here just to prove we aren't very knowledgeable either? If that's the case, big deal. But how do YOU deal with what Boice said? If you aren't busy figuring out how to read that book to find answers (many of which are question you haven't even figured out ought to be questions about the resurrection), then this is just wasted time, and you aren't really interested in learning the truth.

Bad news! I gave you a source to get the full answer already, so even if you lose another password and the folks behind CC don't get back to you on remembering what that password was, you were already handed the answer to your question.

Keep playing games like this and all it shows me is you weren't all that serious about getting real answers.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#52
THE ONLY PERSON HERE WHO SEES IT.
The only person here that agrees with your lie.

Yeah! Like I suspected -- another prove-a-point, where the only point proven is you're a deceiver and a liar.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#53
Who can tell what is solid, seeing that the doctrine of the ressurection is based only in faith due to the actual scriptural accounts being flawed?
Someone can see solid after studying reality not merely mind inventions. The resurrection is fact, proven, and explained often enough that you could find real answers, if you were at all interested. Children's games. Also the reason you'll be losing another account on here.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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#54
And nothing wrong with answering only if you have a real answer.
Not for nothing, but my answer is the best one given -- ask God for clarification.

Doesn't get any better than that.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
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#55
He spells out the root word descended. He fails to pay attention to the other complete details that in no way agree. There is more to what we are talking about than the angel "descending", ie...when he spoke, the location from which he spoke, the time frame in which he spoke, and the whole slew of details mentioned in the OP.

I mentioned that the aorist participle καταβὰς is distributive; and effects the other aorists in the verse.


2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

Hence the verse may be read:

And behold, there had been an earthquake: for (because) the angel of the Lord had descendedfrom heaven, and had come and rolled back the stone from the door, and had sat upon it.

It is a basic premise of sound Bible interpretation that Scripture does NOT contradict Scripture; and when there is an apparent contradiction, we must seek another reading which is both consistent with common usage and idiom; and which resolves the apparent conflict. There will ALWAYS be one.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#56
Not for nothing, but my answer is the best one given -- ask God for clarification.

Doesn't get any better than that.
Unless you have no idea how he'll do that. Most Christians assume God's just going to dink it into their brains.

And then they never notice he doesn't work that way.
 
Jun 21, 2015
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#57
Correct. You stated worse than that. You stated, "The foundation of MOST doctrine is now shaky at best...."

People are people, and if thousands witnessed a miracle you'd have thousands of different accounts.

So, here, you ahree that there are discrepancies between the gospels on the account??

Since you've asked this question before and still aren't satisfied with the answers given, then go straight to the source and talk with God about the infallibility of Scripture.
God is the one who showed me the problems in the bible. God has also given me the faith to know the jist of the story is true...
 
Jun 21, 2015
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#58
The people were so in awe of what transpired they were unable to gather their thoughts completely accurately, yet the bottom line remains the same, Christ is Risen. The Disciples were killed for their testimonies; Peter allowed himself to be crucified upside down for crying out loud. If Christ's Resurrection did not happen don't you think they would have fessed up? Christ is Risen! Deal with it!

You do speak of innacuracy. How revealing. Of course it's inaccurately written- otherwise i would not put myself in this position!?? So since we share the proof that it is innacurate, please answer my OP!
 
S

Siberian_Khatru

Guest
#59
Jason, how am i thinking wrongly if i am using scripture to backbup what i say?? It is apparent that we CANNOT trust the resurrection account narratives- there are 4 gospels, each having its own sequence of events for that morning...it is not our fault the bible has contrary statements within its pages, yet we have to accept that it does. It in no way alters our faith- we believe but we cannot 100% say that any scripture other than Jesus born died and resurrected, is doctrinally sound!? We cannot say that anything contained within the scripture supposedly written by Paul, is 100A% truely what he said- for Christs sake, we do not even have the original letters penned by this man- merely 3rd century copies!
Forgive me if this seems ignorant:

If you admit to defaulting to faith alone, especially if due to the fallibility of the narratives, then what is the point and purpose here?

Also, you said it's apparent that we cannot trust the accounts from the 4 gospels; What do you establish your faith on in regards to the resurrection, then?
 
Jun 21, 2015
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#60
Why do you bring God down to mans arguments? Is it not plain in scripture that they are God breathed? It becomes a matter of faith from that point. Or we can scrutinize the theory that mans flaws out weighs God intercessory abilities. Did not God know of the men He chose to write His book? If he formed the universe could He Himself not simply written the book Himself, yet He says He has done just that. To second guess that is to bring God down to us and not lift ourselves to God by His promises.
Im bringing the discussion to the table brother- nothing else is intended here. I want the whole truth- i want closure, but thats a deep rabbit hole, because when we open this box it opens another and another and another. Many of you just do not have the fortitudes to stomach such a quest...which is sad. I for one, WILL stomach it. I WILL find the black and white in a VERY gray discussion. If your not going to add to this discussion by getting with the program and being honest about the situation, the please, do NOT eat up valuable time and space with your spatter. Relieve yourself from this post please. We ARE to debate scripture, and this NEEDS to be debated because i have a valid discussion point founded in truth. Address my OP please.