Do we choose God or did He choose us?

[Atwood]

Yeah, unless He says word for word you have not chosen me I have chosen you

Let's see what we can find:

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: whereunto he called you through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:


Salute Rufus the chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.


Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you. No longer do I call you servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I heard from my Father, I have made known unto you. \
Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye may love one another. If the world hateth you, ye know that it hath hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love its own: but because ye are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


And except the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom he chose, he shortened the days.


For many are called, but few chosen.

I took a look at the NT and didn't find anything about men or Christians choosing God.

I do recall Joshua telling them to choose this day whom you shall serve. I haven't checked the Hebrew.

 

[Atwood]

Christ died for all men yet all men will not be saved for all men will not choose to obey the gospel and be in the group. So are you saying one can NOT be a Christian (not in the group) yet saved/have sins remitted anyway?

SeaBass, are you aware that you didn't quote a Bible verse -- you are just posting things. Try God's Word; it gives light. But you did make an allusion when you referred to Christ died for all men (scriptural allusion).

 

[crossnote]

Christ died for all men yet all men will not be saved for all men will not choose to obey the gospel and be in the group. So are you saying one can NOT be a Christian (not in the group) yet saved/have sins remitted anyway?

Non sequiter.

 

[Atwood]

Can you give a concrete example where the Calvinist scholars go wrong exegetically?

It seems to me that the Calvinists do indeed deal with scripture, more than on some abstract theory of free will. I think that 5 pointers do have a problem with Limited Atonement, though some may think that the following formula explains the controversy as a non-issue:

Sufficient for all, efficient only for the elect.
1) Christ's death is sufficient to pay for all men's sins.
2) Christ's death is efficient only in paying for the sins of the elect.

Has the thread been deviated from considering passages where "choice" is mentioned, deviated to a general consideration of Calvinism?
Of course Calvinism does speak to the matter of who chooses whom.

IMHO, it is best to concentrate on what the Word says.

It is clear in the Bible that Christ died for the world, made propitiation and redemption for all.
It is also clear that the result is not universal salvation; the Lake of Fire is still a doctrine.
So some explanation is sought for how this can be so.
One explanation is that Christ's death makes all men savable, but belief is required on man's part for the possibility to become actual.

Whatever you come up with,
it remains true that God so loved the world that He gave His Son to die on the cross;
but it is only the whosoever believes who actually are saved.

 

[crossnote]

Ok, think I FINALLY got this all figured out...............so, here goes..........

God chose to allow me to choose Him, because He foreknew that I would choose Him, and because I did choose Him, He chose me, and now I am one of the chosen.......

(uh, ok, lemme read that one more time before posting...........lessee.......God chose to allow me to choose Him.....ok, yeah, because He foreknew that I would choose Him, ok, good so far, and because I did choose Him..........ok, ok, He chose me, and now I am one of the chosen............yeah, that's got it!

pssssh.

 

[posthuman]

Sure, go ahead divert the issue, or like "posthuman" try to use Strongs to illustrate just how little you know about Greek,

how about instead of slandering me,
you actually address the question i asked you?

Last time I checked God only created two people, not all of us.

???
last time i checked, i was a creature -- but who made you?

Through him all things were made;
without him nothing was made that has been made.
(John 1:3)

if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.
(2 Corinthians 5:17)

ktisis: creation (the act or the product)​

Short Definition: creation, creature, institution
Definition: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.

you said God didn't create you:

i gave scripture indicating that you are a created being (generously assuming you are in Christ, though not being in Him you are still created), and in case you wanted to make bones about it, gave the literal definition of the word translated "creation" from three different sources. i've never claimed to know Greek or Hebrew or to be a 'biblical scholar' of any kind. i've never been to seminary, never read anything by Calvin or any other theologian of his ilk - first time i've ever heard of TULIP was on this forum less than a year ago.
i'm a simple human being who reads the Bible, believes what he reads, and is taught by the Spirit of God.

so Lord Inquisitor,

if God did not create you -- who did?
or did you speak without understanding what you said?

 

[Atwood]

Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

John Wesley's observation of Acts 13:48 (my emp)

Luke does not say fore-ordained. . . .

In Acts 14:1,2 those that "believed" and "unbelieved" did so of their own active choice.

Where does Acts 14:1-2 use the word "choice"? Would you care to retract, if you don't find the word "choice" there?
Do you have a verse that says "of their own active choice." I haven't found a NT verse that speaks of anyone doing any choosing in the matter of salvation besides the Lord. So if I missed one, kindly quote it.

Do you deny that foreordained occurs in scripture?
In Acts 4, prophet Luke wrote:

"for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass. And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness, while thy stretchest forth thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of thy holy Servant Jesus."

Words relative to Election occur a number of times in scripture, Seabass: elect/foreordained/predestined/predestinated/called/foreknew/ chosen.

What do you do with them? Just throw them out the window? What do you do with a passage like that in Romans 9?


"For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purposeof God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.


" What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.



" Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? "

 

[2Thewaters]

Jesus spent 33 years on earth preaching repentance

t teach repentance is not possible is anti word of God

 

[2Thewaters]

In fact
the enemy thinks of every way possible for you not to follow the bible by the power in the blood of JEsus,
and tell you no one can repent
when that is a lie
so that they wont pray for it



Repentence is necessary and change of life is necessary and it is your choice.

 

[Atwood]

Joshua 24:14) Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
15 .) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

now, go away little troll.............

Discussions on the topic of election & choice are not likely to go away. That one in Josh is a good one, however, it doesn't say that anyone chose the Lord. It is an admonition. There is another one in the Sermon on the Mount: Ye shall be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. But I doubt that anyone has ever obeyed that one in this life.

So the admonition to choose, does not prove that anyone did it.

We are told to seek the Lord while He may be found, yet also that no one seeks the Lord (of the unsaved).

Joshua was not choosing salvation in Joshua -- he surely was saved many years before, dwelling in the Tent of Meeting with the Lord. I think it is reasonable to think that Christians choose whom they will serve (not salvation). But still we look for a verse that says it. You don't find it in the NT. Lets see if we can find one that actually says someone sought the Lord. Let's take a look at Josiah.

For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father; and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the Asherim, and the graven images, and the molten images.

 

[Atwood]

In fact
Repentence is necessary and change of life is necessary and it is your choice.

The fact is, dear waters, that you have not proven it from scripture.

 

[Atwood]

What is the Sense of Bare Opining on this?

What is the sense of just dogmatically saying things on this without any scriptural proof. Bring forth your verses and show us the truth.

The entrance of God's word brings light.
Thy word is a lamp to my feet.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Haven't read a scripture saying that anyone chose to believe or accept God. Weather the other way around

Romans 8:29

king james version(kjv)

29.)For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

GOD would be the one doing the choosing,because all those that come to him can only be accepted if they are like JESUS and the only one that could be perfect is JESUS himself.

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass, are you aware that you didn't quote a Bible verse -- you are just posting things. Try God's Word; it gives light. But you did make an allusion when you referred to Christ died for all men (scriptural allusion).

Christ died for all men (Heb 2:9) yet all men will not be saved (Mt 7:13) for all men will not choose to obey the gospel (2 Thess 1:8) and be in the group. So are you saying one can NOT be a Christian (not in the group) yet saved/have sins remitted anyway?

 

[SeaBass]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

Where does Acts 14:1-2 use the word "choice"? Would you care to retract, if you don't find the word "choice" there?
Do you have a verse that says "of their own active choice." I haven't found a NT verse that speaks of anyone doing any choosing in the matter of salvation besides the Lord. So if I missed one, kindly quote it.

Calvinists hang onto the word "ordained" in Acts 13:48 KJV and say that it is passive voice, that the Gentiles did not ordain themselves (active voice) but were passively ordained by God.

Acts 14:1 "believed" is active voice meaning the subjects (Jews and Greeks) did that action themselves. Same with "unbelieving" in verse 2, they actively chose to not believe and not passively made to be unbelievers by God.

 

[Atwood]

Christ died for all men (Heb 2:9) yet all men will not be saved (Mt 7:13) for all men will not choose to obey the gospel (2 Thess 1:8) and be in the group. So are you saying one can NOT be a Christian (not in the group) yet saved/have sins remitted anyway?

SeaBass, if you want to make a case, quote your verses and argue from them. Just putting down references is not convincing. Now either show where 2 Thes 1:8 mentions men choosing or retract. Why do you claim that a verse says something it does not say?

Why waste your time just pontificating with no Bible proof?

 

[Atwood]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

Originally Posted by Atwood

Where does Acts 14:1-2 use the word "choice"? Would you care to retract, if you don't find the word "choice" there?
Do you have a verse that says "of their own active choice." I haven't found a NT verse that speaks of anyone doing any choosing in the matter of salvation besides the Lord. So if I missed one, kindly quote it.

[QUOTE]=SeaBass;1621334]Calvinists hang onto the word "ordained" in Acts 13:48 KJV and say that it is passive voice, that the Gentiles did not ordain themselves (active voice) but were passively ordained by God.

Acts 14:1 "believed" is active voice meaning the subjects (Jews and Greeks) did that action themselves. Same with "unbelieving" in verse 2, they actively chose to not believe and not passively made to be unbelievers by God.

[/quote]

Are you retracting your error on Acts 14, since neither choice nor choose occurs there? You are inserting "chose" where it does not occur in the verse. If you want to prove that believing always implies choice, have at it. Where does the Bible say that believe implies choice? If to you it is given to believe, does that imply choice? If so, how do you know? What is your proof?

If you have verses where people actually choose things in the Bible, kindly post them, and note where it is the Lord that the man chooses or salvation.

 

[crossnote]

Re: Bible (Luke, etc.) says FORORDAINED/ELECT -- What to Think?

Calvinists hang onto the word "ordained" in Acts 13:48 KJV and say that it is passive voice, that the Gentiles did not ordain themselves (active voice) but were passively ordained by God.

Acts 14:1 "believed" is active voice meaning the subjects (Jews and Greeks) did that action themselves. Same with "unbelieving" in verse 2, they actively chose to not believe and not passively made to be unbelievers by God.

If the subjects ordain themselves it would be considered 'middle voice' in Greek.
If they ordained others then it's active voice.

 

[crossnote]

While were are on this topic does anyone know of a debate on this topic in video format between two well qualified represenatives from each side?
A number of years ago I read a debate between James White and Dave Hunt. It really was a one sided mismatch with White trouncing Hunt....went away wishing that the two were more equals.

 

[john316forall]

They use their own version of the bible which I don't consider Scripture, do you?

Have you ever witnessed to a JW? Or better yet, how many JW's have you witnessed to in person? Not all of them use the NWT. So stop diverting the issue.