Do we choose God or did He choose us?

[john316forall]

Strong's Concordance

tassó: to draw up in order, arrange​

Original Word: τάσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: tassó
Phonetic Spelling: (tas'-so)
Short Definition: I assign, arrange
Definition: (a) I assign, arrange, (b) I determine; mid: I appoint.


HELPS Word-studies
5021 tássō – properly, arrange (put in order); to place in a particular order, appoint; (figuratively) ordain, set in place; "station" (J. Thayer).
5021 /tássō ("place in position, post") was commonly used in ancient military language for "designating" ("appointing, commissioning") a specific status, i.e. arranging (placing) in a deliberate, fixed order.
[5021 (tássō) was "primarily a military term meaning 'to draw up in order, arrange in place, assign, appoint, order' " (A-S).]


NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from a prim. root tag-
Definition
to draw up in order, arrange
NASB Translation
appointed (2), designated (1), determined (1), devoted (1), established (1), set (1).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

τάσσω: 1 aorist ἔταξα; perfect infinitiveτεταχέναι (Acts 18:2 T Tr marginal reading); passive, present participle τασσόμενος; perfect 3 person singular τέτακταί, participle τεταγμένος; 1 aorist middle ἐταξαμην; from (Pindar, Aeschylus),Herodotus down; the Sept. for שׂוּם, and occasionally for נָתַן, צִוָּה, שׁוּת, etc.; to put in place; to station;
a. "to place in a certain order (Xenophon, mem. 3, 1, 7 (9)), to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint": τινα, passive, αἱ ἐξουσία ὑπό Θεοῦ τεταγμέναιεἰσιν (A. V. ordained), Romans 13:1; (καιρούς,Acts 17:26 Lachmann); ἑαυτόν, εἰς διακονίαντίνι, to consecrate (R. V. set) oneself to minister unto one, 1 Corinthians 16:15 (ἐπί τήν διακονίαν,Plato, de rep. 2, p. 371 c.; εἰς τήν δουλείαν,Xenophon, mem. 2, 1, 11); ὅσοι ἦσαντεταγμένοι εἰς ζωήν αἰώνιον, as many as were appointed (A. V. ordained) (by God) to obtain eternal life, or to whom God bad decreed eternal life,Acts 13:48; τινα ὑπό τινα, to put one under another's control (A. V. set under), passive, Matthew 8:9 L WH in brackets, the Sinaiticus manuscript; Luke 7:8 (ὑπό τινα, Polybius 3, 16, 3; 5, 65, 7; Diodorus2, 26, 8; 4, 9, 5); τίνι τί, to assign (appoint) a thing to one, passive, Acts 22:10 (Xenophon, de rep. Lac. 11, 6).
b. to appoint, ordain, order: followed by the accusative with an infinitive, Acts 15:2; ( T Tr marginal reading); (followed by an infinitive, Xenophon, Hier. 10, 4; Cyril 4, 5, 11). Middle (as often in Greek writings) properly, to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority: οὗ ἐτάξατο αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς namely,πορεύεσθαι, Matthew 28:16; to appoint mutually, i. e. agree upon: ἡμέραν (Polybius 18, 19, 1, etc.),Acts 28:23. (Compare: ἀνατάσσω(ἀνατάσσομαι), ἀντιτάσσω, ἀποτάσσω,διατάσσω, ἐπιδιατάσσω (ἐπιδιατάσσομαι),ἐπιτάσσω, προτάσσω, προστάσσω,συντάσσω, ὑποτάσσω. Synonym: see κελεύω, at the end.)



None of these use the word "disposition" as I have yet seen, nor have any of those implications.

I hate to call you dishonest, but I'm thinking something's a little shady with your post of what Strong's says about what the word "ordained" means:

From Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries:

G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.

And as for your comment about not finding any source with the information I've provided (nevermind that I just gave you Clarke)...I will give you more sources, even "Calvinists" ones (as if their belief has anything to do with what the language actually says):

Please reference the Interlinear Greek English NT published by Zondervan, by Nestle-Marshall. You will find without qualification on page 527 that tetagmenoi has been translated "having been disposed". I suppose that these gentlemen are considered hetradox?

In Zondervan's Analytical Greek Lexicon, page 398, you will find among the conjugations of tasso, the lexime of "disposition" - to dispose. The lexime consideration for that word is only about 2 inches long, so I certainly hope you don't miss the obvious in so short a passage.

While I cannot speak to 'all' the sources you're consulting, what I can say is that I'm using the same sources and seeing what you are saying you are not. So, there may be some issues with tool usage on your part, lack of linguistic expertise, and total number of tools consulted. The information is there. You just have to be honest with it.

 

[john316forall]

I also found that Adam Clarke was a devote Arminianist,
so one should expect him to find offense at that verse.

Not that that is a valid logical argument. It certainly is not.
Just a note.

Me thinks it's more than "just a note" but rather an attempt to "poison the well." LOL

 

[SolidGround]

I hate to call you dishonest, but I'm thinking something's a little shady with your post of what Strong's says about what the word "ordained" means:

From Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries:

G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.

And as for your comment about not finding any source with the information I've provided (nevermind that I just gave you Clarke)...I will give you more sources, even "Calvinists" ones (as if their belief has anything to do with what the language actually says):

Please reference the Interlinear Greek English NT published by Zondervan, by Nestle-Marshall. You will find without qualification on page 527 that tetagmenoi has been translated "having been disposed". I suppose that these gentlemen are considered hetradox?

In Zondervan's Analytical Greek Lexicon, page 398, you will find among the conjugations of tasso, the lexime of "disposition" - to dispose. The lexime consideration for that word is only about 2 inches long, so I certainly hope you don't miss the obvious in so short a passage.

While I cannot speak to 'all' the sources you're consulting, what I can say is that I'm using the same sources and seeing what you are saying you are not. So, there may be some issues with tool usage on your part, lack of linguistic expertise, and total number of tools consulted. The information is there. You just have to be honest with it.

I used BibleGateway, and it is a direct quote. Nothing left out.

It also matches my hard copy of Strong's.

I am not sure why you trust Zondervan.

 

[SolidGround]

Me thinks it's more than "just a note" but rather an attempt to "poison the well." LOL

It's not poison. It is just that you must take human bias into the equation.
If this was a formal debate, such things would not need to be said,
but this is not a formal debate.

I don't feel that there is any love or edification happening here,
so if you don't mind me bowing out, it is probably the better thing to do.

This is causing far too much heat for what was intended.

God bless.

 

[Hoffco]

To John316forall, Please keep in mind that dictionaries have all the meaning of a word, and context determines the meaning. And that all verbs have 3 voices: passive, middle or active. But ONLY on at a time, there is no, Passive/middle voice. Acts 13:48 is "having been disposed" is passive. They were disposed by God Himself from all eternity. And Marshall uses the NASB translation, which uses the word "appointed" as the best choice. UNLESS you prove me wrong, You are losing the battle. Further More, God is always the one who disposes, choses, a sinner to eternal life. Also the context, always, has God as the giver of life. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[just-me]

I wanted to change in 1972. I was raised in a Christian home, and tried the doctrine at the age of 12, and it only took for me 2 weeks to become discouraged with what I had heard in church and Sunday school. For 10 years I lived as a dunk, doper, that had no love, (even for self) and a killer instinct acquired in Vietnam. At the age of 22, I made my choice, and it was a good one. I heard with spiritual ears at night in 1972 in my car, "It's now or never, I've called you before, and this is the end if you will not hear Me now." Since then I have been pursuing the salvation God offers to all mankind, through Christ Jesus your Creator and mine.

 

[SeaBass]

It's Adam's sin, not God's, that we are born depraved.

In Adam, we all sinned.
We all would have done the same thing.


Um, no.
Logical fallacy.



God certainly did choose for Himself those individuals who are His.

All deserve hell.
He chose some to not be destroyed.
This is called a 'remnant'.

It is absolutely man's fault that he is in danger of hell.
It is absolutely God's grace that keeps the saints from hell.

It is not logical or Biblical to assume that God is responsible for the sin of others. God didn't make man depraved. Man made man depraved when we rejected our calling to be the perfect image of God.
It is logical and Biblical to say that God chose those to be saved from a wrath they deserved. It's called 'mercy'.


You do realize that what you're saying doesn't sound like good news. It sounds like an old covenant that was never good enough.
There is some Good News though. God made a New Covenant.

So one inherits sin and depravity from Adam? So if one were born totally depraved it is Adam's fault. But Adam did not form the spirit within man, God did.

No verse says God foreknew, predestined certain individuals unconditionally outside the group, for there is no salvation outside the group.

 

[SeaBass]

Most churches are democratic are they not? So if a group can lose there candlestick, the people in that group can lose it as well.

But what if a christian chooses to be in that group?

The group is the Christian group so there are no Christians outside the group Christian.

 

[oldthennew]

just-me,

'change for the better' in our lives
is the greatest witness, for ourselves
and for those who watch and listen.

BEHAVIOUR IS OUR WITNESS!!!

Christ calls our 'greatest Commandement',
HEAR, O ISRAEL, THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE,
AND THOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD THY GOD...

 

[SeaBass]

"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;" Phil 1:6 Love to all, Hoffco

Phil 1:5 goes with verse 6 and verse 5 shows those Philippian Christians had remained faithful in the gospel from the first day until now. So God works in those that choose to obey and remain faithful to the gospel.

 

[SeaBass]

Right, it applies to individual Christians.

The 'us' and 'we' refer to the group Christian to whom Paul is addressing in Ephesian epistle...... to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Eph 1:1 It is the group Christian that are saints and in Christ and not any single individual outside the group. Calvinism tries to deemphasize the group when it was the group God foreknew and Christ died for. Not a single individual outside the group has his sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

To John316forall, Please keep in mind that dictionaries have all the meaning of a word, and context determines the meaning. And that all verbs have 3 voices: passive, middle or active. But ONLY on at a time, there is no, Passive/middle voice. Acts 13:48 is "having been disposed" is passive. They were disposed by God Himself from all eternity. And Marshall uses the NASB translation, which uses the word "appointed" as the best choice. UNLESS you prove me wrong, You are losing the battle. Further More, God is always the one who disposes, choses, a sinner to eternal life. Also the context, always, has God as the giver of life. Love to all, Hoffco

The verb can be passive or active and the context would show it would be active for again, Luke is contrasting the Jews who ACTIVELY rejected God's word of their own will (v46) to the Gentiles who ACTIVELY accepted God's word by their own will. Note also in v42 how the Gentiles ACTIVELY of their own free will besought Paul to preach the gospel word to them and it was this free will choice of the Gentiles that lead them to hearing that word and being saved.


So the Jews of their own free will (not preordained by God) rejected God's word therefore Gentiles can of their own free will (not preordained by God) accept God's word and the Calvinists has nothing to support them in this context. The context refutes Calvinism in showing free will of the Jews in rejecting God's word and the free will of the Gentles seeking to hear God's word.

 

[SeaBass]

John Wesley's observation of Acts 13:48 (my emp)

Luke does not say fore-ordained. He is not speaking of what was done from eternity, but of what was then done, through the preaching of the Gospel. He is describing that ordination, and that only, which was at the very time of hearing it. During this sermon those believed, says the apostle, to whom God then gave power to believe. It is as if he had said, "They believed, whose hearts the Lord opened;" as he expresses it in a clearly parallel place, speaking of the same kind of ordination, Acts 16:14, &c. It is observable, the original word is not once used in Scripture to express eternal predestination of any kind. The sum is, all those and those only, who were now ordained, now believed. Not that God rejected the rest: it was his will that they also should have been saved: but they thrust salvation from them. Nor were they who then believed constrained to believe. But grace was then first copiously offered them. And they did not thrust it away, so that a great multitude even of Gentiles were converted. In a word, the expression properly implies, a present operation of Divine grace working faith in the hearers.


In Acts 14:1,2 those that "believed" and "unbelieved" did so of their own active choice.

 

[crossnote]

Does that mean you agree with JW's that Jesus was created? Afterall, they use Scripture too.

They use their own version of the bible which I don't consider Scripture, do you?

 

[crossnote]

If only the "calvies" on here would actually study 'greek' sentence structure "including" prepositional phrases, gender, number, and case, 'for themselves' instead of letting others teach them what it says. If they truly did that, I guarantee you they wouldn't be a calvinist.

I do wonder, however, if you're concern is for the 'right' reason. Are you concerned if the word of God is being betrayed through false teaching? Or is it merely because those who do not agree as you do, point out logical conclusions to what is being taught about God, and you don't like it...

Can you give a concrete example where the Calvinist scholars go wrong exegetically?

 

[crossnote]

Acts 13:48 really is a poor selection to use when trying to prove God "predestining" or "selecting" people for salvation. Even some well known Calvies stay away from it because it actually doesn't prove predestination of people to salvation AT ALL.

"Ordained" is better translated "predisposed" or "were disposed" or "inclined" according to the Nestle/Marshall Interlinear Greek New Testament. "Ordained" is a passive middle voice because the verse says they were disposed to eternal life - but it does NOT say how (no agent). It "assumes" the people are the agent because there is none mentioned.

In Greek, passive voice requires an agent in the passage. Middle voice assumes the people are the agent because they are receiving the 'effects' of their 'own action.' In other words, in Acts 13:48, THEY disposed THEMSELVES to the knowledge and 'received it' with gladness.

May as well scratch this one off the list of 'viable options' for God selecting an elite group of people for salvation and damning everyone else just because...

the passive simply means that they were acted upon by another source....in this case ordained by God. And why do you bring up double predestination? I don't believe Scripture teaches that.

 

[crossnote]

The 'us' and 'we' refer to the group Christian to whom Paul is addressing in Ephesian epistle...... to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Eph 1:1 It is the group Christian that are saints and in Christ and not any single individual outside the group. Calvinism tries to deemphasize the group when it was the group God foreknew and Christ died for. Not a single individual outside the group has his sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ.

So you are saying Christ died only for the group called 'elect'? Sorry, I hold that Christ died for all.

 

[SeaBass]

So you are saying Christ died only for the group called 'elect'? Sorry, I hold that Christ died for all.

Christ died for all men yet all men will not be saved for all men will not choose to obey the gospel and be in the group. So are you saying one can NOT be a Christian (not in the group) yet saved/have sins remitted anyway?

 

[p_rehbein]

Ok, think I FINALLY got this all figured out...............so, here goes..........

God chose to allow me to choose Him, because He foreknew that I would choose Him, and because I did choose Him, He chose me, and now I am one of the chosen.......

(uh, ok, lemme read that one more time before posting...........lessee.......God chose to allow me to choose Him.....ok, yeah, because He foreknew that I would choose Him, ok, good so far, and because I did choose Him..........ok, ok, He chose me, and now I am one of the chosen............yeah, that's got it!

 

[Atwood]

I hope so, but I may not be, God can justly put me in hell and I would deserve it

"the hope so" indicates a failure to trust the Savior to save.
If one trusts the Lord Jesus as Savior, God cannot justly put one in the Lake of Fire. For He has promised that person eternal life. He has promised that he shall never perish. And the Lord Jesus has paid for his sins.

"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."

Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.

Consider this, the attitude of the Christian, illustrated by a hypothetical:



Q Dost thou believe that the Lord Jesus died for thee?
A I believe it.

Q Dost thou thank him for his passion and death?
A I do thank him.

Q Dost thou believe that thou canst not be saved except by his death?
A I believe it.

Come then, while life remaineth in thee: in his death alone place thy whole trust; in naught else place any trust; to his death commit thyself wholly, with this alone cover thyself wholly;

and if the Lord thy God will to judge thee,
say, ‘Lord, between thy judgment and me I present the death of our Lord Jesus Christ; no otherwise can I contend with thee.’

And if he shall say that thou art a sinner,
say thou: ‘Lord, I interpose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my sins and thee.

‘If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation,

say: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my evil deserts and thee, and his merits I offer for those which I ought to have and have not.’

If he say that he is wroth with thee,
say: ‘Lord, I oppose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thy wrath and me.

‘And when thou hast completed this,
say again: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thee and me.’

-- attributed to Anselm of Canterbury (c. 1033-1109)

Appendix for extra edification:

Instant Salvation in Past Tense

“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)

th Zacchaeus.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” (Luke 19:9)

Evidence of Zacc's instant salvation is found in his instant statement:


But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” (Luke 19:8)

Cornelius was instantly saved when he trusted the Lord Jesus, and no water baptism was needed nor joining any Eastern or Western organization. (see Acts 10:43-48). Compare this to what Peter said in Acts 15:11: We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. (Acts 15:11)

Consider Eph 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Is there any hint of an extended process between dead & alive? Salvation is a change from death to life, with no intermediate zombie state. 2 Cor 5: Old things are passed away, behold all has become new. It is all or nothing here.


In addressing Tim on common salvation, prophet Paul remarks to Tim how the Christian's salvation is past. There is no future to transpire before Paul and Tim should call themselves saved.


[the Lord God] who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, - 2 Tim 1:9

Again, prophet Paul wrote in Titus the truth that we presently regard ourselves as saved in the past.

he [God] saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)


The future continued salvation state after belief is guaranteed by the past justification by the blood of the Lord Jesus.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! (Rom 5:9) Now how is anyone going to be half-way justified? You either are or you are not. The transition must be instante.

Instant Salvation Is Realized in Present Time

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)

There is a clear dichotomy: You either have or have not the Son of God with eternal life. The change must be instantaneous. Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not just a future reward.

Salvation is clearly presented as a present reality:
Men are divided clearly into two groups, believers and non-believers, the saved & the perishing.


he who believes has everlasting life. (John 6:47)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)

For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (2 Cor 2:15)

It is clear the whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. This salvation must be instantaneous in that it is a new birth, a recreation and only depends upon trusting the SAvior (not the chance-giver). One either is a saint or an ain't. The moment a non-believer becomes a believer, he must be saved, for scripture guarantees salvation to the believer. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. It is clear that the Philippian jailer was at once saved, for he believed.