Do we choose God or did He choose us?

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K

Kerry

Guest
#161
#161
we are 3 beings in one body, made in the image of God. We have a spirit, a mind, and a body. The flesh is the body and your body will speak to your mind. Don't think so, try fasting. It is the body (flesh) that get's addicted to drugs or alcohol.

In our mind/soul we make the decision which one we follow. The flesh or the spirit, we instinctively follow the flesh. Because that is what we can touch taste and feel and see. Because of the original sin or the sin nature we are spiritually dead. Until the word of the Lord comes (Jesus) and quickens our spirit and is reinforced with Holy Spirit as long as our faith is placed in the work of the cross and nothing else.
 
SolidGround

SolidGround

Senior Member
#162
Jan 15, 2014
904
17
18
#162
Kerry said:
we are 3 beings in one body, made in the image of God. We have a spirit, a mind, and a body. The flesh is the body and your body will speak to your mind. Don't think so, try fasting. It is the body (flesh) that get's addicted to drugs or alcohol.

In our mind/soul we make the decision which one we follow. The flesh or the spirit, we instinctively follow the flesh. Because that is what we can touch taste and feel and see. Because of the original sin or the sin nature we are spiritually dead. Until the word of the Lord comes (Jesus) and quickens our spirit and is reinforced with Holy Spirit as long as our faith is placed in the work of the cross and nothing else.
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There are dozens of philosophies about the divisions of man.
These are very complicated, and many of them are hard to distinguish when presented, but are very differentiated by their implications.
I like the '3 part' views, because it seems to match the idea that we were made in God's image, and are easy to relate to our experience here on earth.

But there are some '2 part' and '4 part' views that are also supported by Scripture.

Some even have a theory that man had 3 parts, then lost one in the Fall,
and gain the 3rd back upon receiving the Holy Spirit. (I don't agree, as that is not how Scripture presents salvation)
 
SolidGround

SolidGround

Senior Member
#163
Jan 15, 2014
904
17
18
#163
Is the depravity of man really part of this debate?
I understand that it is connected in certain ways, but the central idea is not about depravity of man, but of the Sovereignty of God.

Even if man was not truly depraved, it still doesn't deny the Sovereignty of God.

(not that depravity is even debatable.)
It says clearly in Scripture that all people sin, and that no one chooses good,
and that each one goes in their own ways instead of God's ways.

Unless your position is that babies are born perfect, and are then tainted by those around them;
but this has no Scriptural support, and is a man-made philosophy.

And if we start on that road, we'll just be debating "biological vs environmental" and "nature vs nurture".
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#164
#164
SolidGround said:
There are dozens of philosophies about the divisions of man.
These are very complicated, and many of them are hard to distinguish when presented, but are very differentiated by their implications.
I like the '3 part' views, because it seems to match the idea that we were made in God's image, and are easy to relate to our experience here on earth.

But there are some '2 part' and '4 part' views that are also supported by Scripture.

Some even have a theory that man had 3 parts, then lost one in the Fall,
and gain the 3rd back upon receiving the Holy Spirit. (I don't agree, as that is not how Scripture presents salvation)
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The 2 part views in my opinion are hogwash. The 3 part views is substantiated. The 4 part view come into play where the Holy Spirit resides in us and therefore presents the case of 4 in one. I kinda go along with that seeing that the 3 Hebrew children were tossed into the fiery furnace. Yet, the king saw 4 and the 4th was like the Son of God.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#165
Nov 24, 2012
30,727
3,661
113
#165
Ephesians 1:3-6

What?..
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

When...
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

Why..
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How..
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

For what purpose?..
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
 
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K

Kerry

Guest
#166
#166
Cross, it is our choice. However that choice can be influenced. I have already given the example of a mother praying for her son.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#168
#168
SeaBass said:
If you are born totally depraved, whose fault is it?
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You and we are born totally innocent. As we age, the sin nature kicks in. I meant didn't you steal a cookie from the jar. Did anyone teach you how to ,lie?
 
SeaBass

SeaBass

Banned
#169
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#169
godtruck said:
Human nature is such that if something is easily figured out we discard it as of no value or cheap. I theorize that God gives us glimpses into His one-of-a-kind realm just to keep us in awe through His word. Therefore we deem Him of great value because we will never completely exhaust His dimensions and ways in His word.
But the danger that's occurring here are the one's who anthropomorphize God as having our way of seeing how God "should" or "should not" act. Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
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The bible tells us about God's nature and how He acts.

The bible tells us God cannot lie, so we know God keeps His promises He has made to man in regards to salvation, Hen 5:9; 2 Thess 1:8.

From Jer 18:8,10 we se God does not act randomly, but the course of action God takes depends on whether or not men repent. Example, in Jonah 3 God through Jonah said forty days and yet Nineveh shall be overthrown, verse 4. The king of Nineveh said "let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? verses 8,9. God's response to Nineveh repenting > And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not, verse 10.

So God did not act randomly, indifferently to Nineveh but the course of action God took depended upon if Nineveh repented or not just as Jer18:8,10 says.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#170
#170
Nineveh did repent read Jonah. Then they in direct offense to OSAS fell away and then God destroyed them. Read it bro.
 
SeaBass

SeaBass

Banned
#171
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#171
crossnote said:
Ephesians 1:3-6

What?..
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

When...
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

Why..
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How..
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

For what purpose?..
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Click to expand...
Paul is addressing the GROUP CHRISTIAN in this context and not individuals independent of this group:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us (group Christian) with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

According as he hath chosen us (group Christian) in him before the foundation of the world,

that we (group Christian) should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us (group Christian) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us (group Christian) accepted in the beloved

NOTHING Paul says in this Eph 1 context applies to the individual outside the group.
 
SeaBass

SeaBass

Banned
#172
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#172
Kerry said:
You and we are born totally innocent. As we age, the sin nature kicks in. I meant didn't you steal a cookie from the jar. Did anyone teach you how to ,lie?
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Calvinists say you were born totally depraved. If that's the case, whose fault would it be? God's.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#173
#173
A group or a church is made up of individuals. So when Jesus said I will remove your candlestick it effected the individuals as well.
 
SeaBass

SeaBass

Banned
#174
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#174
Kerry said:
Nineveh did repent read Jonah. Then they in direct offense to OSAS fell away and then God destroyed them. Read it bro.
Click to expand...
Yes, Nineveh repented and God in His Sovereignty did not force/predetermine Nineveh to be saved or lost, but the course of action God took depended on if men repent or not, Jer 18:8,10
 
SeaBass

SeaBass

Banned
#175
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#175
Kerry said:
A group or a church is made up of individuals. So when Jesus said I will remove your candlestick it effected the individuals as well.
Click to expand...
The group Christian is made up of individuals, but God never predetermined which individuals would or would not be in the group. God leaves that up to each individual to choose to be in the group or not. So if one is not in the group, then that is his own fault/responsibility and not God's.
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
#176
#176
SeaBass said:
If you are born totally depraved, whose fault is it?
Click to expand...
It's Adam's sin, not God's, that we are born depraved.

In Adam, we all sinned.
We all would have done the same thing.

SeaBass said:
Calvinists say you were born totally depraved. If that's the case, whose fault would it be? God's.
Click to expand...
Um, no.
Logical fallacy.

SeaBass said:
The group Christian is made up of individuals, but God never predetermined which individuals would or would not be in the group. God leaves that up to each individual to choose to be in the group or not.

So if one is not in the group, then that is his own fault/responsibility and not God's.
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God certainly did choose for Himself those individuals who are His.

All deserve hell.
He chose some to not be destroyed.
This is called a 'remnant'.

It is absolutely man's fault that he is in danger of hell.
It is absolutely God's grace that keeps the saints from hell.

It is not logical or Biblical to assume that God is responsible for the sin of others. God didn't make man depraved. Man made man depraved when we rejected our calling to be the perfect image of God.
It is logical and Biblical to say that God chose those to be saved from a wrath they deserved. It's called 'mercy'.


You do realize that what you're saying doesn't sound like good news. It sounds like an old covenant that was never good enough.
There is some Good News though. God made a New Covenant.
 
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K

Kerry

Guest
#177
#177
SeaBass said:
The group Christian is made up of individuals, but God never predetermined which individuals would or would not be in the group. God leaves that up to each individual to choose to be in the group or not. So if one is not in the group, then that is his own fault/responsibility and not God's.
Click to expand...
Most churches are democratic are they not? So if a group can lose there candlestick, the people in that group can lose it as well.

But what if a christian chooses to be in that group?
 
godtruck

godtruck

Junior Member
#178
Jul 13, 2014
21
0
1
#178
Most churches are democratic are they not? So if a group can lose there candlestick, the people in that group can lose it as well.

But what if a christian chooses to be in that group? God is not an American. He does not run His kingdom as a democracy. His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Also, He isn't squirming and hoping that people will come and join His kingdom. If left to us, no one would ever choose Him. It's always been about God and Him acting and that's why He gets all the glory lest any man boast.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#179
#179
"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;" Phil 1:6 Love to all, Hoffco
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#180
Nov 24, 2012
30,727
3,661
113
#180
Kerry said:
Cross, it is our choice. However that choice can be influenced. I have already given the example of a mother praying for her son.
Click to expand...
I only gave Scripture, what can I say?
 
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