Do we decide to be saved?

[Cee]

Does God desire just a few to be saved or everyone?

For God so loved the world He gave His Son....

That's everyone.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

That's everyone.

For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

That's everyone.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

That's everyone.

Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

That's everyone.

 

[Cee]

Not that I think I will convince anyone differently.

I've noticed that some people believe these "all" Scriptures to be figurative and "election" Scriptures to be literal.

While the other side does the opposite, election Scriptures are figurative and "everyone will be saved" is literal.

I believe both to be literal. But our understanding of election is what I would question. If we analyze the context, I believe it's more accurate to say election is about Whom (Jesus) we are becoming like not simply who is "graced" to be saved.

Christ was slain from the foundations of the world, but this is because God knows the end from the beginning. We do not. All men are drawn to Him, but not all men call out to be saved.

 

[carl11]

Does God desire just a few to be saved or everyone?

For God so loved the world He gave His Son....

That's everyone.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

That's everyone.

For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

That's everyone.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

That's everyone.

Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

That's everyone.

Christ was slain from the foundations of the world, but this is because God knows the end from the beginning. We do not. All men are drawn to Him, but not all men call out to be saved.

which is it is it all or not all ??

 

[Cee]

which is it is it all or not all ??

I believe all are drawn as I posted. But I don't believe Scripture supports irresistible grace.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I believe all are drawn as I posted. But I don't believe Scripture supports irresistible grace.

How are all drawn?

 

[Cee]

How are all drawn?

Christ being lifted up drew all men to Him.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.​

 

[PS]

Christ being lifted up drew all men to Him.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.​

Isn't the appeal, "come unto me and be saved" to ALL people, but few there be who respond?

So although we are being offered a free gift, there are many who thrust it aside, in other words it is our decision.

 

[Cee]

Isn't the appeal, "come unto me and be saved" to ALL people, but few there be who respond?

So although we are being offered a free gift, there are many who thrust it aside, in other words it is our decision.

Yes I agree, that's how I see it myself. Where this line gets murky is the idea of irresistible grace, which is where people think well if all are drawn to Him, then won't all be saved? And that's not what I believe.

But I can't take away from simple Scripture that says God desires all to be saved. And then say, well maybe not all... because He didn't give all people the ability to be saved. That just doesn't work for me from a Scriptural stand point. The bulk of Scripture to me indicates that whosoever calls out to Him as Lord will be saved.

I think from a contextual stand point, that Jesus before He went to the cross came for just a few, but after Christ was lifted up. He drew all men. Which is why we see 3000 immediately come to believe when Peter stands up and preaches under the power of Holy Spirit. This to me is the beginning of all men being drawn to Him. Yet Jesus told a few Gentiles that He didn't come for them. So I think we have to get that clear in order to make sense of seemingly "contradictory" Scriptures.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Christ being lifted up drew all men to Him.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.​

But how does He draw ppl to Himself? What is the means by which He does this?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Does God desire just a few to be saved or everyone?

For God so loved the world He gave His Son....

That's everyone.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

That's everyone.

For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

That's everyone.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

That's everyone.

Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

That's everyone.

Everyone who calls upon the Lord does not mean everyone w/o exception. Everyone in that subset only includes those who who call upon Him. Those who do not call upon Him will not be saved.

God does desire all to be saved, as He does not rejoice in the death of the wicked. Yet at the same time, He has not willed everyone be saved.

 

[Cee]

But

how does He draw ppl to Himself? What is the means by which He does this?

Great question!

Well from a purely Scriptural answer, I would reference Paul here:

Romans 10:13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. 14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[SUP]c[/SUP] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”

Notice the following progression Paul lays out here:
- Everyone who calls out will be saved
- They need to believe to call out
- They believe by hearing
- They hear by someone preaching
- They hear someone preaching by people being sent
- But he also says not ALL obeyed
- If not all obeyed, they had the ability to not obey
- Which disagrees with the doctrine of irresistible grace

17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

So then FAITH comes through hearing. Not simply through whom God decides to impart.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Great question!

Well from a purely Scriptural answer, I would reference Paul here:

Romans 10:13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. 14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[SUP]c[/SUP] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”

Notice the following:
- Everyone who calls out will be saved
- They need to believe to call out
- They believe by hearing
- They hear by someone preaching
- They hear someone preaching by people being sent
- But not ALL obeyed
- If not all obeyed, they had the ability to not obey
- Which disagrees with the doctrine of irresistible grace

17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

So then FAITH comes through hearing. Not simply through whom God decides to impart.

What about those who died never hearing the gospel? How can they be saved if they never heard the gospel of their salvation?[Ephesians 1:13]

 

[Cee]

Everyone who calls upon the Lord does not mean everyone w/o exception. Everyone in that subset only includes those who who call upon Him. Those who do not call upon Him will not be saved.

God does desire all to be saved, as He does not rejoice in the death of the wicked. Yet at the same time, He has not willed everyone be saved.

I've heard this doctrinal argument, but if you look into the Greek word being used here for "desires", you'll see it's used interchangeable with "wills".

Here's where you can start:

Greek Concordance: θέλει (thelei) -- 19 Occurrences

But just to save you the trip, here's the exact word in another Scripture:

John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.

As you can see, this is Scripture once again saying the opposite of the "desires vs wills" argument.

The Son gives life to whom He wills. (John 5:21)
And the Father wills none to perish. (1 Tim 2:4)

These words are identical in the Greek.

 

[Gabriel2020]

You are forgetting that God poured out his spirit upon all flesh. it is he that calls out to everyone that will here his voice. Some may not here the gospel until they answer to that voice. They know God is God. This day and age. there is no excuse.

 

[PS]

Yes I agree, that's how I see it myself. Where this line gets murky is the idea of irresistible grace, which is where people think well if all are drawn to Him, then won't all be saved? And that's not what I believe.

But I can't take away from simple Scripture that says God desires all to be saved. And then say, well maybe not all... because He didn't give all people the ability to be saved. That just doesn't work for me from a Scriptural stand point. The bulk of Scripture to me indicates that whosoever calls out to Him as Lord will be saved.

I think from a contextual stand point, that Jesus before He went to the cross came for just a few, but after Christ was lifted up. He drew all men. Which is why we see 3000 immediately come to believe when Peter stands up and preaches under the power of Holy Spirit. This to me is the beginning of all men being drawn to Him. Yet Jesus told a few Gentiles that He didn't come for them. So I think we have to get that clear in order to make sense of seemingly "contradictory" Scriptures.

I would have to check, but didn't Jesus say he came to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles? Telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel.

 

[Cee]

What about those who died never hearing the gospel? How can they be saved if they never heard the gospel of their salvation?[Ephesians 1:13]

I didn't say they were. And the Scripture you're quoting actually says the same thing.

Here's the Scripture so we can analyze it:

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Notice what Paul is saying
- When they heard
- The gospel
- AND they believed

The WHEN here is intriguing, because it presents the idea that they were not in Him before they heard the word of truth. But even deeper we see the following:

There's 2 parts being presented. First they had to hear the gospel, then they had to believe in Him. And then they sealed them with His promised Holy Spirit.

 

[Cee]

I would have to check, but didn't Jesus say he came to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles? Telling the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel.

Yes, when I am saying Jesus here I am saying, before He was crucified.

Here's the Scripture I'm considering:

Matt 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

 

[SovereignGrace]

I didn't say they were. And the Scripture you're quoting actually says the same thing.

Here's the Scripture so we can analyze it:

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Notice what Paul is saying
- When they heard
- The gospel
- AND they believed

The WHEN here is intriguing, because it presents the idea that they were not in Him before they heard the word of truth. But even deeper we see the following:

There's 2 parts being presented. First they had to hear the gospel, then they had to believe in Him. And then they sealed them with His promised Holy Spirit.

I am sorry about all the questions, but I asked them to further the discussion.

John Eliot was a missionary to North America in the 1600's. When he got there, those natives did not have the scriptures in their native language until he translated one for them. Prior to this, they had not heard the gospel. Those who died before this, had not heard the gospel of their salvation. So, not everyone whoever lived heard it.

 

[Gabriel2020]

He started the gospel among the chosen first. it was foretold long before Jesus came that the gospel would be preached to the Gentiles. The whole world would hear the gospel.

 

[Cee]

I am sorry about all the questions, but I asked them to further the discussion.

John Eliot was a missionary to North America in the 1600's. When he got there, those natives did not have the scriptures in their native language until he translated one for them. Prior to this, they had not heard the gospel. Those who died before this, had not heard the gospel of their salvation. So, not everyone whoever lived heard it.

That's true, which Paul does say, he says how can they hear unless someone be sent? It's unfortunate they didn't hear of the gospel. In regards to this Paul says that the universe preaches Him. So they are left without an excuse. But I have heard stories of Him revealing Himself through visions and dreams.