Do we stress baptism enough?

ChristianTonyB · Mar 27, 2022

No, W, you appear to be relying on the literal text as against understanding the implications by the Spirit behind them. I'm led by the Authority behind scripture, not by what my interpretation of it may be. I don't rely on my own understanding. Your conclusion that water baptism is essential for a Christian is wrong, it is desirable though. It is merely an outward expression, initial confirmation if you like, of what must already have happened inwardly of the heart and mind!

Pilgrimshope · Mar 27, 2022

ChristianTonyB said:

No, W, you appear to be relying on the literal text as against understanding the implications by the Spirit behind them. I'm led by the Authority behind scripture, not by what my interpretation of it may be. I don't rely on my own understanding. Your conclusion that water baptism is essential for a Christian is wrong, it is desirable though. It is merely an outward expression, initial confirmation if you like, of what must already have happened inwardly of the heart and mind!

lol so you don’t believe what’s written but your understanding goes beyond it ?

Pilgrimshope · Mar 27, 2022

Wansvic said:

“The answer is, there are no scriptures that state water baptism is to be done as a public display. This in itself should prompt further study.”

Amen I was going to write the same thing but fear it will just fall On deaf ears. As it has before several times lol

baptism can be understood by looking into the origins and purpose of the baptizer John and prophecies of his birth and purpose and it never changes in anyway in scripture from John forward

you have good reason to be planted where you are on baptism. We do it because God said it’s about remission of sins provided for by the blood of Christ shed for that remission. And we heard and believed his witness .

It’s a simple act of faith

ChristianTonyB · Mar 27, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

Well, no, I believe what is written, and one of the things written, recorded as having been said by Jesus, is that the Holy Spirit will be sent and He will provide counsel, comfort/encouragement, and teaching directly to every individual in the church of God. He also infers that spiritual truths, their meaning, can only be spiritually discerned by a spirit that is alive to God.

Pilgrimshope · Mar 27, 2022

ChristianTonyB said:

you mean the spirit that he promised here and will always remind us of his words in the gospel ?

“If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

…Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-17, 21, 23-26‬ ‭

if the Holy Spirit is teaching things contrary to the word , it’s a good sign it’s not from God. Baptism is stated thoroughly and clearly what it’s for , does the holy spirit who is behind the scriptures contradict himself ? Or agree ?

it’s true he teaches us , it’s not true that his teachings will contradict christs because it’s his spirit who spoke the gospel to begin with

ChristianTonyB · Mar 27, 2022

GRACE_ambassador said:

What a wonderful testimony, thank you for sharing it. 🙏

God takes us along pathways in our lives that He knows to be pertinent to our specific needs and training, according to His purposes. The realisation of that truth caused the apostle to record that we all need to work on our own salvation with complete fear and trembling. Essential to that of course is the ability to heed the voice of instruction from the Holy Spirit, from within. People are well meaning in their defence of scriptures, but they need to get a handle on the Spirit behind the recording of them, and what the real meaning of them was that He intended to impart. Truths given out by the Holy Spirit can only be absorbed by a person's spirit that has been brought to life by God. Shalom 🙂

ChristianTonyB · Mar 27, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

you mean the spirit that he promised here and will always remind us of his words in the gospel ?

“If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

…Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-17, 21, 23-26‬ ‭

if the Holy Spirit is teaching things contrary to the word , it’s a good sign it’s not from God. Baptism is stated thoroughly and clearly what it’s for , does the holy spirit who is behind the scriptures contradict himself ? Or agree ?

it’s true he teaches us , it’s not true that his teachings will contradict christs because it’s his spirit who spoke the gospel to begin with

I'm not intending to butt heads with you. I have said what I have said, and I have no doubt that it has been at the behest of the Lord. I have nothing more to offer you on this subject!

Pilgrimshope · Mar 27, 2022

ChristianTonyB said:

ok well thanks for what you did say

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ChristianTonyB · Mar 27, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

ok well thanks for what you did say

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Likewise 👍

Wansvic · Mar 28, 2022

studentoftheword said:

I say -----Your trying to make scripture say what you want it to say here -------there is not one Scripture that talks about Personal Sin being forgiven by water baptism ----and your scripture here in Acts says no such thing that your personal sin is being forgiven ====that is just False Doctrine -----your taking Scripture out of its CONTEXT

Jesus took ALL SIN------- PERSONAL and OTHERWISE ------and when BELIEVERS SIN ---GOD REMEMBERS them NO MORE -----water Baptism has nothing to do with sin ------it has everything to do with showing your Faith outwardly in Christ --now under the New Covenant =====

Understanding Scripture is very much needed ------your picking a piece of scripture and making up your own Doctrine -----very Dangerous peddling ------

Before Jesus died -----Baptism was for Repentance only ---a mind change to recognize they were sinners in need of a Saviour ----It had nothing to do with remittance of Sin ----John paved the Way for Jesus to remit sins ----by the washing of His Blood ------

In order for us to understand your cherry picked verse of 16 --you need to go back and read the previous chapters

If you read Acts ---Paul is Saved in Acts 9 ----

in Acts 21 ---we see this --the Law is being talked about here --and Paul is preaching to the Gentiles ----

Acts 21 AMP B

Paul at Jerusalem
15 After this we got ready and started on our way up to Jerusalem.

16 Some of the disciples from Caesarea also came with us, taking us to [the house of] Mnason, a man from Cyprus, a disciple of long standing with whom we were to lodge.

17 When we arrived in Jerusalem, the [d]brothers and sisters welcomed us gladly.

18 On the next day Paul went with us to [see] [e]James, and all the elders of the church were present.

19 After greeting them, Paul began to give a detailed account of the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they began glorifying and praising God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all enthusiastic supporters of the Law [of Moses].

21 Now they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are living among the Gentiles to turn away from [the Law of] Moses, advising them not to circumcise their children or to live according to the [Mosaic] customs.

22 What then should be done? They will certainly hear that you have arrived.

23 Therefore do just what we tell you. We have four men who have taken a vow;

24 take these men and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses [for the temple offerings] so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that there is nothing to the things they have been told about you, but that you yourself also follow and keep the Law.

25 But with regard to the Gentiles who have believed [in Christ], we have sent them a letter with our decision that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from [consuming] blood and from [the meat of] what has been strangled and from sexual immorality.”

26 Then Paul took the [four] men, and the next day he purified himself along with them [by submitting to the ritual]. He went into the temple to give notice of [the time] when the days of purification [ending each vow] would be fulfilled and the usual offering could be presented on behalf of each one

Paul Seized in the Temple
37 Just as Paul was about to be taken into the barracks, he asked the commander, “May I say something to you?” And the man replied, “Do you know Greek? 38 Then you are not [as I assumed] the Egyptian who [f]some time ago stirred up a rebellion and led those 4,000 men of the Assassins out into the wilderness?”

39 Paul said, “I am a Jew from [g]Tarsus in Cilicia (Mersin Province, Turkey), a citizen of no insignificant city; and I beg you, allow me to speak to the people.”

When the commander had given him permission, Paul, standing on the steps, gestured with his hand to the people; and when there was a great hush, he spoke to them in the Hebrew dialect (Jewish Aramaic), saying,

I say ----Paul is speaking to his people here -------before he is arrested
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Acts 22 ----------carries on with him speaking about his Conversion ----to his people verses 6 to 16 Paul describes his conversion -------

Acts 22
Paul’s Defense before the Jews

3 “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of [a]Gamaliel according to the strictness of the law of our fathers, being ardent and passionate for God just as all of you are today. 4 I persecuted and pursued the followers of this [b]Way to the death, binding them with chains and putting [followers of Jesus] both men and women into prisons, 5 as the high priest and all the Council of the elders (Sanhedrin, Jewish High Court) can testify; because from them I received letters to the brothers, and I was on my way to Damascus in order to bring those [believers] who were there to Jerusalem in chains to be punished.

6 “But as I was on my way, approaching Damascus about noontime, a great blaze of light suddenly flashed from heaven and shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 And I replied, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.’ 9 Now those who were with me [c]saw the light, but did not understand the voice of the One who was speaking to me. 10 And I asked, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord answered me, ‘Get up and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that is appointed and destined for you to do.’ 11 But since I could not see because of the [glorious intensity and dazzling] brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me and came into Damascus.

12 “And one Ananias, a devout man according to [d]the standard of the Law, and well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to [see] me, and standing near, he said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I [recovered my sight and] looked up at him. 14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will, [and to progressively understand His plan with clarity and power] and to see the Righteous One [Jesus Christ, the Messiah] and to hear a message from His [own] mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men testifying of what you have seen and heard.

16 Now, why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name [for salvation].

i say
So Verse 16 ----is Paul telling of His conversion ----Paul is already saved and anointed here in this Chapter ------and is telling his own version of his meeting with Christ and his Salvation process -------the Baptism he speaks of here is the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT which he received in Acts 9 -------and you will see in ACTS 9 -----that the Baptism Paul speaks of here is the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT no water baptism

Ananias told Paul to be baptized to wash away HIS sins. That means his personal sin.
According to your understanding of the scripture, we tell God when to give His Spirit. This is not true. God has always been in control of when He imparts His Spirit. The only baptism mankind has total control over receiving is water baptism in the name of the Lord.

Wansvic · Mar 28, 2022

studentoftheword said:

Continued -----

Now Read Acts 9 that tells you what happened to Paul when he met Jesus -------starting in verse 10 ----

Acts 9

The Conversion of Saul
. 3 As he traveled he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him [displaying the glory and majesty of Christ];

4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice [from heaven] saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting and oppressing Me?”

5 And Saul said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He answered, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,

6 now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 The men who were traveling with him [were terrified and] stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.

8 Saul got up from the ground, but though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.

9 And he was unable to see for three days, and he neither ate nor drank.

10 Now in Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he answered, “Here I am, Lord.”

11 And the Lord said to him, “Get up and go to the street called [d]Straight, and ask at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul; for he is praying [there],

12 and in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come in and place his hands on him, so that he may regain his sight.”

13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many people about this man, especially how much suffering and evil he has brought on Your saints (God’s people) at Jerusalem;

14 and here [in Damascus] he has authority from the high priests to put in chains all who call on Your name [confessing You as Savior].”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for this man is a [deliberately] chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

16 for I will make clear to him how much he must suffer and endure for My name’s sake.”

17 So Ananias left and entered the house, and he laid his hands on Saul and said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came [to Damascus], has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit [in order to proclaim Christ to both Jews and Gentiles].”

18 Immediately something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took some food and was strengthened
-----------------------------------------

I say -------So we see that after he regained his sight ----he was baptised in the Holy Spirit not in water here ---he was in a house and Ananias laid hands on him -----He had the anointing of the Holy Spirit on him to Preach the Gospel -right away ----no water baptism needed ---totally submerged -in the HOLY SPIRIT ----verses 19-20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saul Begins to Preach Christ
19 For several days [afterward] Saul remained with the disciples who were at Damascus.

20 And immediately he began proclaiming Jesus in the synagogues, saying, “This Man is the Son of God [the promised Messiah]!”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i say
People need to stop picking one piece of scripture and running with it without doing research on the Chapters before and after the scripture chosen --------False Doctrine is escaping because of our ignorance and lack of research -----

I agree that people should be water baptised to show their outward Faith in Christ ---but it will not take sins away and should never be told to do so -------Jesus died a horrible death to pay for our sins ----only His Blood can save a person from their sins and eternal torment ------

I am very familiar with the scriptures you reference. And I make it a point to evaluate all scriptures relevant to a topic. Acts 9:17-18 Paul receives the Holy Spirit and is baptized. Acts 22:16, Ananias tells Paul to be baptized for remission of his sin. Paul's conversion is consistent with all conversion accounts in the Word. Confirmation through the Word is the key to accurate understanding.

Acts 9:17-18
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Acts 22:15-16
15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

studentoftheword · Mar 28, 2022

Wansvic said:

If your so familiar with scripture -----then you should have know that the scripture you quoted was Paul speaking about his conversion -----you mentioned none of that ------

Wansvic said:

---YA--- YA Your wishing and hoping here so you can prove yourself right -----your grasping at straws while your sinking ---

Wansvic · Mar 28, 2022

PSUseagull said:

Jesus spoke truth about many topics that had not occurred yet.

Pilgrimshope · Mar 28, 2022

Wansvic said:

“And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

spirit

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

water

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

blood

“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Wansvic · Mar 28, 2022

studentoftheword said:

John pointed out that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost. His comment in no way excluded the need to be water baptized.

Actual scripture points out that Peter was the first to preach the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 2:38, 15:7-8) In both cases he references the need to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. As well as the need to receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38-40, 10:43-48) Being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus is water baptism, and is for the remission of sin. (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38, 22:16)

Also, note that all conversions included both water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

Beckie · Mar 28, 2022

Wansvic said:

Ananias told Paul to be baptized to wash away HIS sins. That means his personal sin.
Please post the Scripture reference i cant seem to find it

Wansvic · Mar 28, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

As you know, our job is to point out what scripture actually says and it is God who gives the increase. I have found at times that God has revealed the truth to people we least expect. i.e. A bystander whose ears perk up to what is being said to another.

I say this to encourage you. Continue to be blessed!

Wansvic · Mar 28, 2022

Beckie said:

Acts 22:15-16
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Pilgrimshope · Mar 28, 2022

Beckie said:

it’s in pauls testimony under oath when witnessing of his conversion to Christianity

“came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, ( Paul before his conversion in chapter 9)receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭22:13-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Pilgrimshope · Mar 28, 2022

Wansvic said:

indeed brother I couldn’t agree more , I was saying in this particular thread I had early on been witnessing the same things and it just falls on deaf ears .

I believe it’s the grace revolution doctrine so rampant where anything the Word says to do becomes an unnecassary work in the mknd of those who let that doctrine root in them everything is “Unwarranted favor “ so anything the word tells us to do becomes not necassary and Unacceptable “works of the law” rather than hearing of faith and acting upon it

too Many readers of Joseph prince books and devotionals and those who spread the same for me to get through, I’ve been reading along to see of you make any headway.

I thought the original Op has much good to say

Do we stress baptism enough?

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