-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
M
Since when do we go by the Talmud? The Talmud says lots of things, I hope you don't follow everything it says.
* “If a ‘goy’ גוי (gentile) hits a Jew he must be killed.” (Sanhedrin 58b)
* “If a Jew finds an object lost by a ‘goy’ it does not have to be returned.”
(Baba Mezia 24a)
* “If a Jew murders a ‘goy’ there will be no death penalty.” (Sanhedrin 57a)
* What a Jew steals from a ‘goy’ he may keep.” (Sanhedrin 57a)
* “Jews may use subterfuges to circumvent a ‘goy.’” (Baba Kamma 113a)
* “All children of the ‘goyim’ גוים (gentiles) are animals.” (Yebamoth 98a)
* “Girls born of the ‘goyim’ are in a state of ‘niddah’ ‘ נִדָּה ’ (menstrual uncleanness!) from birth.” (Abodah
Zarah 36b)
* “If a ‘goy’ גוי (gentile) hits a Jew he must be killed.” (Sanhedrin 58b)
* “If a Jew finds an object lost by a ‘goy’ it does not have to be returned.”
(Baba Mezia 24a)
* “If a Jew murders a ‘goy’ there will be no death penalty.” (Sanhedrin 57a)
* What a Jew steals from a ‘goy’ he may keep.” (Sanhedrin 57a)
* “Jews may use subterfuges to circumvent a ‘goy.’” (Baba Kamma 113a)
* “All children of the ‘goyim’ גוים (gentiles) are animals.” (Yebamoth 98a)
* “Girls born of the ‘goyim’ are in a state of ‘niddah’ ‘ נִדָּה ’ (menstrual uncleanness!) from birth.” (Abodah
Zarah 36b)
Looking back on this thread I see no one is posting bible verses showing or explaining that abortion is murder. It is claimed to be murder but no one has evidence from the bible to back that up. We should only listen to God's Word not to man, and if God's Word doesn't say it is murder I have no basis from which to claim it is murder or claim that God will judge abortionists as murderers.
Only after it's born? That's basically stating that, before the child is actually born, it's not a human....what? I mean, I have seen some arguments of like, when is it consider human, at conception of in a few months, but even up when it's about to be born? I can't go with that. Your comparison to a chicken and an egg is not valid because...well it's an animal. That's way different. We are created in God's image and animals are not.
Just because man's law does not state that it isn't murder does not make it right. Slavery was just another norm here in the states and it was perfectly legal, but we all know that people of African decent are human. if you owned a slave and killed it, well that was your "property" and you could do what you want with it. Same now with abortion. it's the woman's right to want she wants while she is pregnant with her "property", abort or not, but that does not make it right.
Let's look at the bible and see what verses we can find.
Luke 1:41 says ' When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit." Now the word baby here means infant in the original which is from the word " brephos", now let's look at Luke 18:15 "People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them." again babies is infants but the same word is use which is "BREPHOS."
Here we have two instances. before and after birth, but the same word used for the child. There is no difference. What does Jesus say later? "Let the little children come to me, and do no hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." I'd say that's a pretty strong case against abortion. If the word is used for the same before and after then killing one brephos before it's born is just the same as killing one after it's born.
Just because man's law does not state that it isn't murder does not make it right. Slavery was just another norm here in the states and it was perfectly legal, but we all know that people of African decent are human. if you owned a slave and killed it, well that was your "property" and you could do what you want with it. Same now with abortion. it's the woman's right to want she wants while she is pregnant with her "property", abort or not, but that does not make it right.
Let's look at the bible and see what verses we can find.
Luke 1:41 says ' When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit." Now the word baby here means infant in the original which is from the word " brephos", now let's look at Luke 18:15 "People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them." again babies is infants but the same word is use which is "BREPHOS."
Here we have two instances. before and after birth, but the same word used for the child. There is no difference. What does Jesus say later? "Let the little children come to me, and do no hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." I'd say that's a pretty strong case against abortion. If the word is used for the same before and after then killing one brephos before it's born is just the same as killing one after it's born.
Exactly, which brings me to the point:
a) do you want it to be classed as murder in your legal system?; and
b) do you support life in prison as a suitable sentence?
What's the point of talking about a hypothetical murder and hypothetical judgement of murderers if we aren't prepared to see it realised in our present laws particularly for your country which is "one nation under God"? The issue of abortion is a practical one that exists here and now on earth, it is largely governed by man's laws, not God's, in most countries of the world, and so what is the point ?
a) do you want it to be classed as murder in your legal system?; and
b) do you support life in prison as a suitable sentence?
What's the point of talking about a hypothetical murder and hypothetical judgement of murderers if we aren't prepared to see it realised in our present laws particularly for your country which is "one nation under God"? The issue of abortion is a practical one that exists here and now on earth, it is largely governed by man's laws, not God's, in most countries of the world, and so what is the point ?
abortive
1394, from L. abortivus "causing abortion," from abortus, pp. of aboriri "disappear, miscarry," from ab- "amiss" + oriri "appear, be born, arise" (see orchestra); the compound word used in L. for deaths, miscarriages, sunsets, etc. The L. verb for "to produce an abortion" was abigo, lit. "to drive away." Abortion first recorded 1547, originally of both deliberate and unintended miscarriages. In 19c. some effort was made to distinguish abortion "expulsion of the fetus between 6 weeks and 6 months" from miscarriage (the same within 6 weeks of conception) and premature labor (delivery after 6 months but before due time). This broke down as abortion came to be used principally for intentional miscarriages. For much of 20c., a taboo word, disguised in print as criminal operation (U.S.) or illegal operation (U.K.), and replaced by miscarriage in film versions of novels. Abort is 1580 as "to miscarry;" 1614 as "to deliberately terminate."
There was no word in the Hebrew or Greek for this procedure. Because the Bible does not use the word doesn't make it ok. There is not one single verse in scripture that condemns child molestation. Do you think that it is ok to molest children too Mahogony?
1394, from L. abortivus "causing abortion," from abortus, pp. of aboriri "disappear, miscarry," from ab- "amiss" + oriri "appear, be born, arise" (see orchestra); the compound word used in L. for deaths, miscarriages, sunsets, etc. The L. verb for "to produce an abortion" was abigo, lit. "to drive away." Abortion first recorded 1547, originally of both deliberate and unintended miscarriages. In 19c. some effort was made to distinguish abortion "expulsion of the fetus between 6 weeks and 6 months" from miscarriage (the same within 6 weeks of conception) and premature labor (delivery after 6 months but before due time). This broke down as abortion came to be used principally for intentional miscarriages. For much of 20c., a taboo word, disguised in print as criminal operation (U.S.) or illegal operation (U.K.), and replaced by miscarriage in film versions of novels. Abort is 1580 as "to miscarry;" 1614 as "to deliberately terminate."
There was no word in the Hebrew or Greek for this procedure. Because the Bible does not use the word doesn't make it ok. There is not one single verse in scripture that condemns child molestation. Do you think that it is ok to molest children too Mahogony?
M
For what it's worth I don't think we need a Bible verse. I think it's a quesion that can be settled through reason.
If you don't believe abortion is murder then you are either:
a) challanging it on the definition of 'murder'
or
b) challanging the humanity or personhood of an unborn child.
Which one? Then maybe we can steer this thread in a productive direction.
If you don't believe abortion is murder then you are either:
a) challanging it on the definition of 'murder'
or
b) challanging the humanity or personhood of an unborn child.
Which one? Then maybe we can steer this thread in a productive direction.
It doesn't really say abortion is murder, Kakashi. We can parse words all we like to try to prove a point, but what most don't realise is that the bible doesn't actually say "abortion is murder". If we must follow God's Word to show us right from wrong, we must also not claim things are in the bible that aren't, that is just as bad. Adding to God's Word is just as bad as taking away.
I
There are lots of things in the bible that aren't 'black and white' clear.
If you apply your logic of analysing this topic to other topics. We could argue our way out of everything.. tithing, premarital sex, the need for marriage, etc etc.
My point is, God didn't necassarily give his commands to us in simple clear-cut black and white all the time. Sometimes we need to do a bit of research for ourselves, use discernment, and read everything. Some things are blatantly obvious, others not so much.
I hope that helps.
If you apply your logic of analysing this topic to other topics. We could argue our way out of everything.. tithing, premarital sex, the need for marriage, etc etc.
My point is, God didn't necassarily give his commands to us in simple clear-cut black and white all the time. Sometimes we need to do a bit of research for ourselves, use discernment, and read everything. Some things are blatantly obvious, others not so much.
I hope that helps.
- Status