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pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,727
1,201
113
#81
18. TITHING AND JUSTICE (LUKE 11:42)
But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
There isn’t parity between Matthew and Luke in everything Jesus says. But this is one of the instances where Luke also records Jesus’ words on a matter. Even to a gentile like Luke, Jesus words that we need to give and be mindful of expressing God’s love and justice is important.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,727
1,201
113
#82
So you're still REQUIRED to give to your local Church, and nobody out there tries to take advantage of that?

Never mind the emotional appeals, just talk straight.

What does God want from us?

See post #50
Chew on the above for awhile.....do you know the scriptures?
A emotional appeal to further the kingdom? Was it not Jesus that had compassion on the people? Emotional appeal indeed.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,833
971
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#83
@pottersclay , I must say...

Hebrews 4:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
36,185
13,476
113
66
Tennessee
#84
Yes but now you're talking about a totally different situation to the one you originally used the saying for - which was the point of the thread.
The thing is, after awhile, most threads go off on a tangent and the conversation may differ from the OP. I was merely responding to your post and your point that the kingdom of God proceeds for the most part by having real conversations and that there is no cost attached.

Conversation is one thing but actual action is another thing altogether as this is the means that accomplishes what is discussed in the conversation and may require the sacrifice of blood, sweat and tears. In the bible it says to count the costs when contemplating an action. Your contention is that furthering the kingdom of God need not cost anything. My contention is that there is often a cost attached and depending on what needs to be done the cost may be substantial.

In relative terms, talk is cheap compared to the action required to accomplish the task at hand which may further the kingdom of God. Prayer is one thing, and answered prayer is another thing altogether.

I hope that this post clarifies my position. It did not cost me anything to offer it.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,833
971
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#85
The thing is, after awhile, most threads go off on a tangent and the conversation may differ from the OP. I was merely responding to your post and your point that the kingdom of God proceeds for the most part by having real conversations and that there is no cost attached.

Conversation is one thing but actual action is another thing altogether as this is the means that accomplishes what is discussed in the conversation and may require the sacrifice of blood, sweat and tears. In the bible it says to count the costs when contemplating an action. Your contention is that furthering the kingdom of God need not cost anything. My contention is that there is often a cost attached and depending on what needs to be done the cost may be substantial.

In relative terms, talk is cheap compared to the action required to accomplish the task at hand which may further the kingdom of God. Prayer is one thing, and answered prayer is another thing altogether.

I hope that this post clarifies my position. It did not cost me anything to offer it.
On the contrary Mr Tourist, it cost you your time. ;)
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,833
971
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#86
In relative terms, talk is cheap compared to the action required to accomplish the task at hand which may further the kingdom of God
Unless that talk is preaching the Gospel.

2/2, I'm on a roll. lol

:p
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
#88
Straight question, straight answer...

Please tell me why, UNDER THE NEW COVENANT, Christians are OBLIGATED to give some of their income to the church.


If you think Christians are not obligated but that it's nice to contribute to your church, that's fine.
But that's not the question.

And remember, I'm asking about under the NEW covenant.
Under the N.C. everything is done with the heart....not by law, or we'd still be under the law.

I like these verses:

Matthew 6:3-4
But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.



Luke 3:11
And he would answer and say to them, “The man who has two tunics is to share with him who has none; and he who has food is to do likewise.”



and my favorite:


2 Corinthians 9:7
Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
#89
Who will follow the words of Jesus and give EVERYTHING away? Luke 18:22

Everything is given by God, and everything will be taken away by him. We came into this world with nothing and we will leave it the same way. Physically speaking. If we seek to own or hold onto anything God will eventually remove it anyways. Why fight him? Give to others what was freely given you. And do everything with love and kindness in the fear of the Lord.

This is why we need a church, to help others reach this goal.
Just got here.
You mean reach the goal of giving EVERYTHING away?
Literally?
Could you post that verse again please?
I've never heard of this....
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,833
971
113
31
#90
The thing is, after awhile, most threads go off on a tangent and the conversation may differ from the OP. I was merely responding to your post and your point that the kingdom of God proceeds for the most part by having real conversations and that there is no cost attached.

Conversation is one thing but actual action is another thing altogether as this is the means that accomplishes what is discussed in the conversation and may require the sacrifice of blood, sweat and tears. In the bible it says to count the costs when contemplating an action. Your contention is that furthering the kingdom of God need not cost anything. My contention is that there is often a cost attached and depending on what needs to be done the cost may be substantial.

In relative terms, talk is cheap compared to the action required to accomplish the task at hand which may further the kingdom of God. Prayer is one thing, and answered prayer is another thing altogether.

I hope that this post clarifies my position. It did not cost me anything to offer it.
That cost might be financial btw, @Adam4Eve which is why giving ought to be encouraged. I remember reading Acres of Diamonds by Russel H. Conwell and one part stuck out to me about money and not being opposed to prosperity.

"Money prints your bibles, sends your missionaries, and builds your churches."
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,263
4,743
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#91
There is a lot of preachers that like to preach give to the Church so they can live a comfortable, prosperous life, especially television evangelists.

Get in to contact with a preacher on television for help, and they most likely will respond asking for money, as if that is their concern more than the problem, or question you pose to them.

Their main concern seems to be money for themselves, before work of the ministry, with some being millionaires, and driving nice cars, and living in nice houses, and trying to convince the congregation they deserve that money, and prosperity, for they preach the Gospel.

But Paul said the preacher is not to be in the ministry for the money, and if they preach that God blesses with money for their wants withdraw yourselves from them, having food, and clothing be content, and God wants equality among the saints, so the preacher does not get blessed any more than any saint.

And the early Church sold all their possessions that was not a necessity, and laid the money at the apostles feet, which they did not use it for personal use, but distributed the money to the poor.

But many preachers use the money that is given for their own personal use, which is for the people so their needs are met, and some preachers, like again television evangelists, are living lavishly, even doling that money out to their children to live lavishly too, and neglecting the purpose of what the money is to be used for.

And this is strange concerning Africa, that there are preachers that are millionaires, taking advantage of the people, but you would think that in such a country that does not prosper like America, that they would have some kind of compassion upon the people, but people are the same all over the world, and the love of money the root of all evil, for it neglects the poor and needy.

It is true that many preachers take advantage of the congregation to cause money to flow in to their Church, so they can live lavishly, or at least have a very comfortable good lifestyle, all at the expense of the people, even taking advantage of old people, and the widows, the same as the Pharisees were doing.

So they probably know they do not have any backing for the preaching of tithes, but they do it anyway for it keeps the money flowing to them to prosper them.

I doubt you'll like my response but,you've made an awful lot of blanket statements and judgement calls in your post. Lets get something straight right off the bat,a tv evangelist is not the same thing as your local preacher. With the exception of a handful I'd be surprised if most tv evangelists are even saved. Totally different than the preacher that works at your local church. Now some preachers in bigger churches may make more money because of the people that attend the church. The Bible says a work man is worthy of his hire. If the people agree to pay a pastor a certain sum that is separate from tithe that comes into the church. If a pastor is misusing tithes for himself that would be fraud. I've never personally heard of that happening. The tithe is to run the church and keep the lights on. Any church,if you are a member,must give account to how the money is being spent. If you disagree with how it is spent,that's the time to speak up.

Now I was in ministry 20yrs. I mention that to let you know that I know what Im talking about in this situation. I've traveled in every denomination you can name, met hundreds and hundreds of pastors,been in their homes. Trust me in this,they are NOT living like tv evangelists!! I've been to big city churches,I've been to little country churches. I've traveled in many churches where people put a dollar in the love offering and you see them at the restaurant dropping 40 bucks on a meal to feed themselves. I get real offended when people say ministers are in it for the money. You are making a judgement call and you are wrong. I can tell you in all my travels I never met a pastor that was "in it for the money". I'm not saying there aren't some out there but they are not the majority. I don't understand the argument against giving. Tithing comes with the promise of a blessing. Freely you have received,freely give.

I attend a little country church but they bring in money like a big city church. But our church has so many outreaches that they support. Missions, pregnancy crisis center, Samaritans Purse, local people in need and so many others. The tithe goes to these ministries and outreaches. My sister went to Africa last year and our church, (which isn't her home church she lives 3hrs away) gave her $2000 toward her mission trip. We have missions that go out from our church. So to sum it all up,you're wrong in what you are saying. You're making blanket statements and judgment calls about something you know nothing about. Sorry if that sounds harsh,I don't mean to be. If you don't wish to tithe then that is between you and God. But I believe we should and I believe God will bless us for it. All we have is His anyhow.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,263
4,743
113
#92
So you're still REQUIRED to give to your local Church, and nobody out there tries to take advantage of that?

Never mind the emotional appeals, just talk straight.

What does God want from us?

See post #50


Here's what God wants from us,a giving heart. Ten percent is nothing. It ought to be given willingly. Tithing comes with a promise of blessing attached. This verse has already been posted but take a second look...

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

I don't see the argument against giving. I don't know why so many get hung up on this issue. Give to the work of the Lord. People ought to want to give. The pastor shouldn't have to beg and plead. The widow gave the last she had,we ought to have her heart. We ought to give of ourselves and our monies. We owe it all to Him anyway. I've never heard a good solid argument for NOT tithing. Not one. You want the church to stay open,you want to reach others in missions and ministries, support the work of the Lord. Not everyone can go travel in ministry like I did,or go to Africa like my sister has,but you can GIVE so that others may take the message to a lost and dying world.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,263
4,743
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#93
That cost might be financial btw, @Adam4Eve which is why giving ought to be encouraged. I remember reading Acres of Diamonds by Russel H. Conwell and one part stuck out to me about money and not being opposed to prosperity.

"Money prints your bibles, sends your missionaries, and builds your churches."

Exactly, tithe keeps the church doors open and outreaches to others through missions and ministries. If you're not willing to tithe then you shouldn't be attending the church of you're not willing to support it and get behind it with your money. People are so jealous over their money when it comes to giving to God,not so much when it comes to their own wants. I have a friend in ministry that tells the following joke...

The 100 dollar bill was talking to the two dollar bill. The $2 bill says to the $100 bill,where have you been? I haven't seen you lately. $100 bills says "Oh football game, restaurant,movie theater,the opera." He says to the $2 bill,well where have you been?" The $2 bill said "church,church,church and church".

As I said,I haven't seen one GOOD argument for not tithing. Every Christian, every single one ought to be required to go on the road or overseas in ministry for 5yrs, or even 2,most would quit after one!! I guarantee peoples attitudes on giving would change overnight if they were in ministry themselves!!



ps. Hope you are doing well brother.Long time no see :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,566
10,552
113
#94
was Ananias tithing to Peter?

how much did he and Sapphira hold back? 90%?

why did he lay the money at Peter's feet? is that what Barnabas did?

Peter says it was a conspiracy.
 

Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
179
42
28
#95
Some people seem to be misunderstanding the point of this thread, which has been made explicitly clear on several occasions.


This thread is NOT about:
- whether your money helps to run the Church building
- whether the pastor deserves to be paid
- the lifestyle of your pastor
- whether people who attend the Church ought to CHOOSE to contribute to operating costs


This thread IS about:
- whether COMPULSORY financial giving still effects Christians


We seem to have already established that giving under obligation does not effect Christians.
Read the thread in its entirety.

Don't mix up terminology.
Tithing: giving under obligation, includes money, herbs, animals, etc.
Donating: giving through choice.

I know some Churches confuse the two terms, which is what leads to some of the confusion.
Do your own reading.

The thread has now moved on in light of post #50.

With regards to pastors or Church staff that take advantage of people in the congregation who donate, I think that happens more often than some contributors care to notice.
That's not the same as saying that everybody is up to it.

- Churches who don't publish annual budgets that get voted on by the congregation.
- A Church that doesn't publish full financial reports on where the money is going.
- Pastors and Church staff that are like pigs at the trough: they get a house (standard), cars paid for, holidays paid for, claim travel and restaurant costs as an expense while they're on holiday, utility costs covered.
I don't blame anyone who wants a better life, but there is such a thing as taking the p...
- Church staff who claim fuel and meals as expenses.

Does the money go to furthering God's kingdom, or to ensuring that a select few 'worthies' have a better life?
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,263
4,743
113
#96
Some people seem to be misunderstanding the point of this thread, which has been made explicitly clear on several occasions.


This thread is NOT about:
- whether your money helps to run the Church building
- whether the pastor deserves to be paid
- the lifestyle of your pastor
- whether people who attend the Church ought to CHOOSE to contribute to operating costs


This thread IS about:
- whether COMPULSORY financial giving still effects Christians


We seem to have already established that giving under obligation does not effect Christians.
Read the thread in its entirety.

Don't mix up terminology.
Tithing: giving under obligation, includes money, herbs, animals, etc.
Donating: giving through choice.

I know some Churches confuse the two terms, which is what leads to some of the confusion.
Do your own reading.

The thread has now moved on in light of post #50.

With regards to pastors or Church staff that take advantage of people in the congregation who donate, I think that happens more often than some contributors care to notice.
That's not the same as saying that everybody is up to it.

- Churches who don't publish annual budgets that get voted on by the congregation.
- A Church that doesn't publish full financial reports on where the money is going.
- Pastors and Church staff that are like pigs at the trough: they get a house (standard), cars paid for, holidays paid for, claim travel and restaurant costs as an expense while they're on holiday, utility costs covered.
I don't blame anyone who wants a better life, but there is such a thing as taking the p...
- Church staff who claim fuel and meals as expenses.

Does the money go to furthering God's kingdom, or to ensuring that a select few 'worthies' have a better life?


With regards to pastors or Church staff that take advantage of people in the congregation who donate, I think that happens more often than some contributors care to notice.
As I said in my post I have not found that to be true. If you are a member of a church you will see where the money goes each quarter. If you disagree that is your time to voice your opinion. If you feel strongly,go talk to the pastor in private. If you feel the funds are being misused as in fraud then leave the church and report the pastor.

- Pastors and Church staff that are like pigs at the trough: they get a house (standard), cars paid for, holidays paid for, claim travel and restaurant costs as an expense while they're on holiday, utility costs covered.
The Bible says a work man is worthy of his hire. No, not all pastors get a house. Would you begrudge them having one? I've stayed in a lot of manses over the years. Trust me on this,many congregants would refuse to live in the houses provided. One place we stayed they said the former pastors wife was ungrateful for the house they provided. Well we stayed there for a week. The house was literally falling down. It would cost a fortune to heat it. Near froze to death. I wanted to ask the board member if his dear wife would live in that house. Cause I can tell you she would not!! Also not every church provides a car. Do you begrudge the pastor having a car? Surely not! They claim costs, should they not? See I don't understand why people begrudge a pastor and family. You need to go into ministry yourself and you might understand where I'm coming from. On the whole pastors and staff are not like "pigs at a trough". Trust me on this. Again the Bible said a workman is WORTHY of his hire.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,628
113
#97
All of that depends on the Pastor entirely. Some are good, some are bad.

I remember there was a thread here about "primitive baptists" a while ago. They are heretics no doubt but they had a system where the pastors all got day jobs, and support themselves.
Now how about THAT?

Wont be seeing that coming in anytime soon, working two days a week, writing 3 sermons? Sign me up!
Especially with the Joel Osteen kind of "sermons" were its just one verse quoted and rest is just cool stories and psychobabble about love and telling people how great they are and how much God loves them. Some pastors got it made in the shade in America! This is probably the biggest pyramid scheme running today. Scientology gives it a run for its money though.

Where im from the pastors RARELY make a fortune like they do in the states. They drive REGULAR CARS and live in REGULAR HOUSES, some even RENT APARTMENTS.
Its like this in the third world too, obviously, seems to me that this phenomena of pastors being too well off financially is mainly an american problem.
 

Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
179
42
28
#98
As I said in my post I have not found that to be true. If you are a member of a church you will see where the money goes each quarter. If you disagree that is your time to voice your opinion. If you feel strongly,go talk to the pastor in private. If you feel the funds are being misused as in fraud then leave the church and report the pastor.



The Bible says a work man is worthy of his hire. No, not all pastors get a house. Would you begrudge them having one? I've stayed in a lot of manses over the years. Trust me on this,many congregants would refuse to live in the houses provided. One place we stayed they said the former pastors wife was ungrateful for the house they provided. Well we stayed there for a week. The house was literally falling down. It would cost a fortune to heat it. Near froze to death. I wanted to ask the board member if his dear wife would live in that house. Cause I can tell you she would not!! Also not every church provides a car. Do you begrudge the pastor having a car? Surely not! They claim costs, should they not? See I don't understand why people begrudge a pastor and family. You need to go into ministry yourself and you might understand where I'm coming from. On the whole pastors and staff are not like "pigs at a trough". Trust me on this. Again the Bible said a workman is WORTHY of his hire.
Extrapolating on what you see to be saying, a pastor could buy himself a private jet with donations from the congregation and you'd still say
"Do you begrudge that?"

This isn't about begrudging anybody anything, this is about pastors who get a good wage while also having everything paid for for them.
 

Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
179
42
28
#99
All of that depends on the Pastor entirely. Some are good, some are bad.

I remember there was a thread here about "primitive baptists" a while ago. They are heretics no doubt but they had a system where the pastors all got day jobs, and support themselves.
Now how about THAT?

Wont be seeing that coming in anytime soon, working two days a week, writing 3 sermons? Sign me up!
Especially with the Joel Osteen kind of "sermons" were its just one verse quoted and rest is just cool stories and psychobabble about love and telling people how great they are and how much God loves them. Some pastors got it made in the shade in America! This is probably the biggest pyramid scheme running today. Scientology gives it a run for its money though.

Where im from the pastors RARELY make a fortune like they do in the states. They drive REGULAR CARS and live in REGULAR HOUSES, some even RENT APARTMENTS.
Its like this in the third world too, obviously, seems to me that this phenomena of pastors being too well off financially is mainly an american problem.
THIS
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,898
2,742
113
Straight question, straight answer...

Please tell me why, UNDER THE NEW COVENANT, Christians are OBLIGATED to give some of their income to the church.


If you think Christians are not obligated but that it's nice to contribute to your church, that's fine.
But that's not the question.

And remember, I'm asking about under the NEW covenant.
Matthew 10:5-8

5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Luke 6:38
Give,
and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

there. two reasons to give and Jesus is speaking which is the greatest reason to do it.