Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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I am presenting what the scriptures teach.
Those who believe are saved, not the other way around, that says….
those who are saved, believe.
Believe is the condition for salvation.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
Unlike your Gospel that teaches….
For God so loved the world elect that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him is elected to be saved should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16
JPT
I don't see any benefit in continuing this discussion with you. I'll just leave you with this regarding your statement above:
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
While everyone who is saved believes, the salvation must happen first
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
While everyone who is saved believes, the salvation must happen first
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FreeGrace2 said:
You've shown NO SUCH THING.
There are NO verses that show election is to salvation. That's just a presumption.
No you don't. What verse links election to salvation?
I have given several verses where the purpose of election is very clear; to service.
And I forgot John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
Just the things that are specifically stated in the verses that include the purpose of election.
1. to be holy and blameless Eph 1:4
2. the 12, one of which was a devil and would betray Him John 6:70, 71
3. to be obedient 1 Peter 1:2
4. to shame the wise, shame the strong, to nullify the things that are 1 Cor 1:27,28
You've shown NO SUCH THING.
There are NO verses that show election is to salvation. That's just a presumption.
No you don't. What verse links election to salvation?
I have given several verses where the purpose of election is very clear; to service.
And I forgot John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
Just the things that are specifically stated in the verses that include the purpose of election.
1. to be holy and blameless Eph 1:4
2. the 12, one of which was a devil and would betray Him John 6:70, 71
3. to be obedient 1 Peter 1:2
4. to shame the wise, shame the strong, to nullify the things that are 1 Cor 1:27,28
Go ahead and ignore the verses I just shared, and here again:
1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
1 Peter 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Now it is your turn, as I said in my last post, and you just choke. You have NO verses that support your claim.
You have shown NOTHING. All you do is make false claims about having shown a false doctrine.
I guess you avoided the verses above so as to NOT see the facts, since your mind is already made up.
You haven't shown ANY verses teaching that election is to salvation. Your claims are EMPTY.
1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
1 Peter 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Now it is your turn, as I said in my last post, and you just choke. You have NO verses that support your claim.
You have shown NOTHING. All you do is make false claims about having shown a false doctrine.
I guess you avoided the verses above so as to NOT see the facts, since your mind is already made up.
You haven't shown ANY verses teaching that election is to salvation. Your claims are EMPTY.
FreeGrace2 said:
Well, FINALLY you share a verse that you think teaches that election is to salvation. So, let's see what the verse says.
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Your statement is NOT supported by Eph 1:4,5. In fact, not even close.
Well, FINALLY you share a verse that you think teaches that election is to salvation. So, let's see what the verse says.
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Your statement is NOT supported by Eph 1:4,5. In fact, not even close.
Thats conditioning salvation of works[/quote]
it is written
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Clearly, according to Scripture, faith is not works
it is written
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Clearly, according to Scripture, faith is not works
[Jas 2:26 KJV] 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
As the spirit is the essence of the body, so are works the essence of true faith, and true faith is of righteousness. HOWEVER,
Christ's faith/works/righteousness are they which are in view. Christ's faith incorporated all works needed for righteousness and for our salvation. That righteousness is imputed as a gift to those elected to salvation when they become saved. Being a gift, no works on the recipient's part are required or even permitted. So, when faith is mentioned in the Bible know that
it contains works and is righteousness. Abraham's faith was reckoned to him in the same manner as it is to all those who become saved. The faith reckoned was Christ's faith, not Abraham's. Abraham's faith (were there even such a thing) did not/could not ever bring righteousness but Christ's righteousness brought faith.
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[Rom 4:13 KJV] 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
As the spirit is the essence of the body, so are works the essence of true faith, and true faith is of righteousness. HOWEVER,
Christ's faith/works/righteousness are they which are in view. Christ's faith incorporated all works needed for righteousness and for our salvation. That righteousness is imputed as a gift to those elected to salvation when they become saved. Being a gift, no works on the recipient's part are required or even permitted. So, when faith is mentioned in the Bible know that
it contains works and is righteousness. Abraham's faith was reckoned to him in the same manner as it is to all those who become saved. The faith reckoned was Christ's faith, not Abraham's. Abraham's faith (were there even such a thing) did not/could not ever bring righteousness but Christ's righteousness brought faith.
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[Rom 4:13 KJV] 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
So, based upon your understanding, exactly what things did God show (shew) to them? From the Bible, show us what they were.
Remember, shewing (showing), in order to be shewing, must be more than seeing something existing within the environment or of something that is just visible. They must have somehow been demonstrated. So, since you quoted the verse, for our edification, tell us, which are they that they were "shewed", that we may know too?
Remember, shewing (showing), in order to be shewing, must be more than seeing something existing within the environment or of something that is just visible. They must have somehow been demonstrated. So, since you quoted the verse, for our edification, tell us, which are they that they were "shewed", that we may know too?
rogerg said:
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
While everyone who is saved believes, the salvation must happen first
Except there are NO verses that show salvation occurring before one believes. In fact, there are many verses that clearly teach that believing results in salvation. Acts 16:31 is just one example.
And the notion that election is to salvation has been refuted by Scripture itself.
I've been asking bf52 to provide verses that actually teach that election is to salvation, and all I get in return are claims that he has shown verses, which he never has.
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
While everyone who is saved believes, the salvation must happen first
Except there are NO verses that show salvation occurring before one believes. In fact, there are many verses that clearly teach that believing results in salvation. Acts 16:31 is just one example.
And the notion that election is to salvation has been refuted by Scripture itself.
I've been asking bf52 to provide verses that actually teach that election is to salvation, and all I get in return are claims that he has shown verses, which he never has.
Then you have to reject all these verses:
1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
1 Peter 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Now it is your turn, as I said in my last post, and you just choke. You have NO verses that support your claim.
You CAN'T have any verses that teach that election is to salvation because of the verses above.
You would have to argue that Judas Iscariot was election to salvation in John 6;70,71. Are you going to?
1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
1 Peter 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Now it is your turn, as I said in my last post, and you just choke. You have NO verses that support your claim.
You CAN'T have any verses that teach that election is to salvation because of the verses above.
You would have to argue that Judas Iscariot was election to salvation in John 6;70,71. Are you going to?
I've already explained this verse. The word "us" in 'chosen us' is defined in v.19 as "us who believe". Unless you can prove from the text that the 2 "us" words refer to different people, be my guests.
Eph 1:4 is a verse about election being to service, just like all the others.
God chose believers...to be holy and blameless.
To be holy and blameless is about lifestyle, not salvation.
Eph 1:4 is a verse about election being to service, just like all the others.
God chose believers...to be holy and blameless.
To be holy and blameless is about lifestyle, not salvation.
Ridiculous. God's plan is clearly stated in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
God's plan is clearly for everyone.
Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
Salvation is offered BY GRACE to everyone.
iow, God offers salvation, and man must accept the offer (believe in Christ).
God's plan is clearly for everyone.
Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
Salvation is offered BY GRACE to everyone.
iow, God offers salvation, and man must accept the offer (believe in Christ).