Doctrine of Unconditional Election

John146 · Jan 26, 2022

“After ye are known of God” There is a point in time when you are known of God…when you trust in Jesus and become a son.

Galatians 4:
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

justpassinthrough · Jan 27, 2022

brightfame52 said:

How in the world did come to the conclusion that “the world” refers to the elect.

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore whoever wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4

Your perverted doctrine is not biblical.

JPT

justpassinthrough · Jan 27, 2022

rogerg said:

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Only those who believe and there obey Jesus Christ will be saved.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

brightfame52 · Jan 27, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Then you have to reject all these verses:

1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

1 Peter 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Now it is your turn, as I said in my last post, and you just choke. You have NO verses that support your claim.

You CAN'T have any verses that teach that election is to salvation because of the verses above.

You would have to argue that Judas Iscariot was election to salvation in John 6;70,71. Are you going to?

I havent rejected none of those verses. You reject truth and scoff at it by calling it calvinism.

brightfame52 · Jan 27, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

I've already explained this verse. The word "us" in 'chosen us' is defined in v.19 as "us who believe". Unless you can prove from the text that the 2 "us" words refer to different people, be my guests.

Eph 1:4 is a verse about election being to service, just like all the others.

God chose believers...to be holy and blameless.

To be holy and blameless is about lifestyle, not salvation.

You have already rejected and twisted this verse.

brightfame52 · Jan 27, 2022

John146 said:

God knew His Chosen people before the foundation Rev 13:8 before they are formed in the womb Jer 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations

FreeGrace2 · Jan 27, 2022

brightfame52 said:

Apparently you don't realize that a double negative is a positive. So, iow, you have stated that you DO reject all of the verses I have shared. Sometimes the truth just gets out in spite of ourselves, huh.

No, I would never call the truth calvinism, because calvinism contains a lot of error.

Seems you are rather confused in your posts.

Why won't you even try to address the verses I have shared that PROVE that election is to service, INCLUDING the election of Judas Iscariot?

How do you explain Judas, who was chosen along with the other 11?

And Jesus Himself, "the Chosen One". Mentioned in both the OT and NT. How do you explain that?

Well, of course, you can't.

So you just keep playing that record of yours.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 27, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
I've already explained this verse. The word "us" in 'chosen us' is defined in v.19 as "us who believe". Unless you can prove from the text that the 2 "us" words refer to different people, be my guests.

Eph 1:4 is a verse about election being to service, just like all the others.

God chose believers...to be holy and blameless.

brightfame52 said:

Prove it. Prove that the "us" in v.19 is NOT the same "us" as in v.4. I dare you to.

But no, you will simply play that old record of yours. You have nothing else.

reneweddaybyday · Jan 27, 2022

rogerg said:

Abraham had faith ... every descendant of Adam has faith.

The issue is in what (and better yet in Whom) do we place our faith.

Atheists place their faith in the notion that there is no God ... that God does not exist.

Some hear God's Word and restrain, suppress, hinder the truth in unrighteousness as shown in Romans 1:18 ... For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

Notice Romans 1:18 does not state that they do not have faith. Romans 1:18 states that they hold the truth in unrighteousness. The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to restrain, suppress, hinder.

Those who do not restrain, suppress, hinder the truth in unrighteousness are those who hear the truth and believe as shown in Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ...

Here's what we read about Abraham's faith:

Genesis 15:

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it [Abraham's faith] to him for righteousness.

Where is your verse which states "God gave Abraham faith ... then Abraham believed ... then God counted it to him for righteousness"???

your rendering does not align with Scripture. bring your thoughts into alignment with Scripture ... do not attempt to bring Scripture into alignment with your thoughts.

reneweddaybyday · Jan 27, 2022

rogerg said:

Romans 1:

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

God reveals His eternal power and Godhead through His creation ... the whole of creation reveals God's glory:

Psalm 19:

1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world ...

We are to look at the creation and marvel at God ... His eternal power and Godhead ... turn to Him, not away from Him.

However, some see creation and turn from God and His eternal power and Godhead. They worship and serve the creation rather than the Creator.

And it's a downward spiral from there as shown in Romans 1

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

They knew God because God reveals Himself in His creation. They see His creation, yet they do not glorify Him. Instead they become vain (empty) in their imaginations (reasonings) and the foolish heart becomes darkened.

Because of their foolish darkened hearts, they move further away from God:

Romans 1:

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves

Because God gives them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, they continue to move further away from God:

Romans 1:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature

Because God gives them up to vile affections, their behavior becomes so abominable that God finally gives them over to a reprobate mind:

Romans 1:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient

Please note, mankind does not start out with a reprobate mind. They go through stages and at each stage, I believe God holds them as long as He can, but at some point He has to let go (give them over).

What is clearly revealed is that mankind rejects God.

What is also clearly revealed is that at any stage in this downward spiral, a man or a woman can hear the truth of God's Word and believe. I have spoken to many, many believers who engaged in some of the behaviors mentioned in Romans 1 and yet, when they heard the truth and did not restrain, suppress, hinder God's truth, they believed and were saved.

You can disagree all you want rogerg ... God's Word is very clear in Romans 1 exactly what occurs and what has occurred to all descendants of Adam. Romans 1 explains what happened to pharaoh back in the time of Moses ... how pharaoh's heart became so hardened. pharaoh went through the same stages shown in Romans 1 as every other unbeliever ... and it all starts with mankind restraining, suppressing, hindering God's Truth ... turning from God instead of to God. And whenever a person turns to God, God is there waiting for them.

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth ...

John146 · Jan 27, 2022

brightfame52 said:

And yet, Galatians says otherwise...

The verse you quotes is before the person was formed. They were in the womb as a person, but not yet fully formed.

rogerg · Jan 27, 2022

justpassinthrough said:

I don't get your point? in the parable, aren't they of the "those by the wayside", and are not of the "good ground"? If not of "good ground" then they COULDN"T be saved - they had to be of good ground for that, which they never could be - it was out of their control because they couldn't change the ground they were in. Only those who Christ died for can be of "good ground"

justpassinthrough said:

To "obey' is obedience to the faith and that obedience was/is GIVEN them.

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

brightfame52 · Jan 27, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Apparently you don't realize that a double negative is a positive. So, iow, you have stated that you DO reject all of the verses I have shared. Sometimes the truth just gets out in spite of ourselves, huh.

No, I would never call the truth calvinism, because calvinism contains a lot of error.

Seems you are rather confused in your posts.

Why won't you even try to address the verses I have shared that PROVE that election is to service, INCLUDING the election of Judas Iscariot?

How do you explain Judas, who was chosen along with the other 11?

And Jesus Himself, "the Chosen One". Mentioned in both the OT and NT. How do you explain that?

Well, of course, you can't.

So you just keep playing that record of yours.

You misrepresented me by saying I have rejected those verses. You have rejected unconditional election to salvation as scripture indicates. And you call truth calvinism !

brightfame52 · Jan 27, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

You have been shown truth many times, and not only just by myselF, yet you deny it and scoffingly call it calvinism.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 27, 2022

brightfame52 said:

No, I have accurately represented you. I provided verses that clearly SHOW that election is to service, and all you've done is keep playing your broken record.

You haven't even tried to address any of the verses that show what election is for. So I have misprepresented nothing.

You haven't shown any verses that support this claim of yours.

Because there aren't any.

No, I would NEVER call the truth by the description calvinism.

brightfame52 · Jan 27, 2022

John146 said:

God knew His Chosen people before the foundation Rev 13:8 before they are formed in the womb Jer 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations

brightfame52 · Jan 27, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

You misrepresented me by saying I have rejected those verses. And you call truth calvinism. Thats called scoffing truth, mocking it

John146 · Jan 27, 2022

brightfame52 said:

Yes, God knows everyone before they are formed in the womb...they are in the womb just not completely formed yet. See Psalm 139/

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

God saw my substance before I was fully formed in the womb. My members, my arms and legs, were not fully formed.

brightfame52 · Jan 27, 2022

John146 said:

Yes, God knows everyone before they are formed in the womb...they are in the womb just not completely formed yet. See Psalm 139/

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

God saw my substance before I was fully formed in the womb. My members, my arms and legs, were not fully formed.

So then your point is mute you made earlier.

rogerg · Jan 27, 2022

reneweddaybyday said:

Christ's faith was reckoned to Abraham, but it was Christ's faith.

That all of Abraham's descendants had been given faith might be true (unsure) but is not particularly germane to the discussion. Where in the Bible did you find that statement? Abraham's spiritual decedents and offspring were through Isaac not Ishmael and not being a spiritual descendent, I'm doubtful all did have true faith, but maybe.

[Gen 17:19 KJV] 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.

reneweddaybyday said:

Christ is the "truth". By saying they hold the truth in unrighteousness in effect, Paul is saying that they held Christ in unrighteousness. How can they then have faith, if they hold Faith (Christ) Himself as unrighteous? Answer: they couldn't
In this particular case I don't think it appropriate to use what a verse doesn't say to substantiate your point. Not every verse was written by God to cover all possibilities,

[Jhn 14:6 KJV] 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[Jhn 1:17 KJV] 17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

reneweddaybyday said:

I would say that God gave Abraham faith AND Abraham believed.

Following are a few verses which supports that. Did you not read my post of yesterday where I documented from the Bible that true faith has faith, works, and righteousness that is of, and from, Christ?

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Rom 4:16 KJV]
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Think about what the above verse is actually saying: that God made a promise of salvation and as promisor, it can only be
brought to fruition by God alone. Therefore, faith (Christ's faith), by which salvation was achieved and is given, cannot come by the faith of the recipient of salvation but solely by God, otherwise, the promise would not/could not be "sure" to all the seed. This is because the promise would then be dependent upon factors outside of God. Consequently, it had to have been Christ's faith that was the faith counted to Abraham - hope that was clear.

reneweddaybyday said:

God could only count righteousness to Abraham if it were the righteousness of Christ's faith that was being counted.

Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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